Giggs on the brink of Wales appointment

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

In which case, how do you assume Giggs has a winning mentality? Couldn't he equally just have been a part of an excellent team that won a staggering amount. If this creates a winning mentality, then how can that be replicated? It can't, unless Wales keep winning. If your argument is that Giggs has a winning mentality from winning, then the only way Wales can have a winning mentality is from winning, not from Giggs. Did Sir Alex Ferguson have that winning mentality as a footballer? Do top footballers who have a winning mentality usually go on to make excellent managers?

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I didnt say it can be replicated, nor did I say top footballers go on to make excellent managers? Please point me to where I said that?

Wales do not have the quality for it to be replicated for starters, however I think being the most decorated player in British football, and one of the best players this country has ever prodcued, will do no harm in getting the players on his side. I also think it will help with the progression of the Ampadus and Woodburn as Giggs has first hand experience of being the "next big thing".

I was merely responding to the ridiculous suggestion Bellamy has more of a winning mentality than Giggs. I have given my reasons for thinking this is nonsense. Of course winning gives you a winning mentality. Wanting to win things and actually winning them are completely different. You used Peter Wright as an analogy earlier, he hasnt got the winning mentality, hes bottled several majors. I dont like Phil Taylor but hes got a winning mentality, and absolutely hates losing. However according to your logic because Wrights not as naturally talented as Phil but has done well with what talent he does posess he has more of a winning mentality?!?! Whatever next, Eddie the Eagle has more of a winning mentality than Daley Thompson!!?!?

This playing for a top side argument you are using doesnt really wash with me, not when Giggs played for 3 or 4 succesful United teams that had to be rebuilt. Might apply to someone with a bit part in a championship win but a guy who at one stage won 9 out of 11 championships?

When was the last time someone won back to back Premier Leagues? Giggs has played for teams that won 3 leagues on the trot, twice, and back to back to titles 5 times and you dont think he has a winning mentality? Just fortunate to play for a succesfull team for 20 years yeah?. Nothing to do with his ability and mental strength?

We obviously have a different interpretation of a winning mentality.

Genuine question.
Would you have been just as pissed of with Giggs missing friendlies if he had been playing for another,maybe less high profile club than Man U? with a less combative manager than Fergie?
Personally i always felt more let down when lesser players, who could have put a stake down and showed what they were capable of pulled out of the squad. We all knew what Giggs could do at any given time so 45mins or so against some minnows wouldnt have been a great deal of help to the management.
Maybe im remembering wrongly but im sure someone like James Collins pulling out of many a squad with a day or so's notice and quite a few others with far less fuss and bother.
Yes turning up for every game shows great commitment but would that have affected our qualifying chances at any stage of his playing career with Wales?

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Originally Posted by Charlie

Genuine question.
Would you have been just as pissed of with Giggs missing friendlies if he had been playing for another,maybe less high profile club than Man U? with a less combative manager than Fergie?
Personally i always felt more let down when lesser players, who could have put a stake down and showed what they were capable of pulled out of the squad. We all knew what Giggs could do at any given time so 45mins or so against some minnows wouldnt have been a great deal of help to the management.
Maybe im remembering wrongly but im sure someone like James Collins pulling out of many a squad with a day or so's notice and quite a few others with far less fuss and bother.
Yes turning up for every game shows great commitment but would that have affected our qualifying chances at any stage of his playing career with Wales?

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I felt Giggs laid down a marker, for the rest of the squad, these matches then felt worthless, and that feeling flowed into all the other players and eventually the fans.

Giggs didn't play a friendly for 9 years. No friendlies are pointless, you improve your FIFA ranking you get put in better pots for International tournaments, you make qualification a bit easier.

Recently we haven't played that many friendlies, which i believe is sensible, but when we have, the spirit and the commitment of the squad cannot be questioned.

If you look at Ronaldo (147 caps) and Messi (123 caps) it shows that you can play international football and compete at the very highest level.

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Originally Posted by Charlie

Genuine question.
Would you have been just as pissed of with Giggs missing friendlies if he had been playing for another,maybe less high profile club than Man U? with a less combative manager than Fergie?
Personally i always felt more let down when lesser players, who could have put a stake down and showed what they were capable of pulled out of the squad. We all knew what Giggs could do at any given time so 45mins or so against some minnows wouldnt have been a great deal of help to the management.
Maybe im remembering wrongly but im sure someone like James Collins pulling out of many a squad with a day or so's notice and quite a few others with far less fuss and bother.
Yes turning up for every game shows great commitment but would that have affected our qualifying chances at any stage of his playing career with Wales?

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Giggs set the example. Can cite Collins and others all you like - Giggs was the first to regularly withdraw for fake injuries. Can't claim one rule for Giggs and another for the rest.

Compare and contrast with Bale. Bale misses Real games due to injury. Giggs had claimed hamstring problems yet was ready to play 3-4 days later.

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Originally Posted by Charlie

Genuine question.
Would you have been just as pissed of with Giggs missing friendlies if he had been playing for another,maybe less high profile club than Man U? with a less combative manager than Fergie?
Personally i always felt more let down when lesser players, who could have put a stake down and showed what they were capable of pulled out of the squad. We all knew what Giggs could do at any given time so 45mins or so against some minnows wouldnt have been a great deal of help to the management.
Maybe im remembering wrongly but im sure someone like James Collins pulling out of many a squad with a day or so's notice and quite a few others with far less fuss and bother.
Yes turning up for every game shows great commitment but would that have affected our qualifying chances at any stage of his playing career with Wales?

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Everyone in British football was shit scared of Fergie, his players, the refs, the FA. The notion that a young Ryan Giggs should have stood up to him just as his career was taking off so he could play in some meaningless games for Wales is laughable.

Perhaps Giggs should have stood up for himself, who knows, he might have ended up having a career like Michael Owen.

When Giggs first burst on the scene Fergie was clearly looking after one of his prize assets. Then towards the end he dropped out of meaningless games and eventually retired to prolong his club career. Your club career pays the bills after all.

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Originally Posted by qccfc

I felt Giggs laid down a marker, for the rest of the squad, these matches then felt worthless, and that feeling flowed into all the other players and eventually the fans.

Giggs didn't play a friendly for 9 years. No friendlies are pointless, you improve your FIFA ranking you get put in better pots for International tournaments, you make qualification a bit easier.

Recently we haven't played that many friendlies, which i believe is sensible, but when we have, the spirit and the commitment of the squad cannot be questioned.

If you look at Ronaldo (147 caps) and Messi (123 caps) it shows that you can play international football and compete at the very highest level.

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Things have changed since his playing time and im sure i read fairly recently that playing the wrong type of friendlies these days worsens your rankings,which is why we had the trainging camps instead. I personally think he would have been available for most of these camps if they were done then as he wouldhave been in a contained enviroment that would have suited Man U and Fergie better.
Remember we didnt have a pot to pissin as an association in those days so someone like Giggs getting injured on international duty was probably something the FAW feared so didnt try to force the issue with the club.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Everyone in British football was shit scared of Fergie, his players, the refs, the FA. The notion that a young Ryan Giggs should have stood up to him just as his career was taking off so he could play in some meaningless games for Wales is laughable.

Perhaps Giggs should have stood up for himself, who knows, he might have ended up having a career like Michael Owen.

When Giggs first burst on the scene Fergie was clearly looking after one of his prize assets. Then towards the end he dropped out of meaningless games and eventually retired to prolong his club career. Your club career pays the bills after all.

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But surely winners with winning mentalities would be alpha males, huh? I mean what would Fergie do? Sell one of his best players to spite his face? Not pay him at Man Yoo? Giggs was utterly complicit in missing Welsh games. I can really imagine Fergie telling Keane to tell the FAI to sod off...

In reality the FAW bottled it. Should have applied the rules and forced Giggs to be evaluated fully by FAW staff.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Giggs set the example. Can cite Collins and others all you like - Giggs was the first to regularly withdraw for fake injuries. Can't claim one rule for Giggs and another for the rest.

Compare and contrast with Bale. Bale misses Real games due to injury. Giggs had claimed hamstring problems yet was ready to play 3-4 days later.

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But thats the point,how many others claimed fake injuries just to play again within the week but the player was less high profile and playing for a less high profile club.
We could have forced the issue but then that may have backfired when we really need a player to turn up. 9 times out of 10 i would say it was the club pulling players out but the player taking the blame, idont think we had anyone in the set up who had the balls to face up to Fergie at that time.

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Originally Posted by Charlie

But thats the point,how many others claimed fake injuries just to play again within the week but the player was less high profile and playing for a less high profile club.
We could have forced the issue but then that may have backfired when we really need a player to turn up. 9 times out of 10 i would say it was the club pulling players out but the player taking the blame, idont think we had anyone in the set up who had the balls to face up to Fergie at that time.

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I'd say few did because those low profile players had less ability to do so. Easier for FAW to threaten a lesser team with sanctions than Man Yoo.

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Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt

Fergie players who became decent managers - I'd like to add Gordon Strachan to the list. Mark Robins is also doing a decent enough job in the lower leagues.

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Fair point about Strachan and Robins has been a good manager at a certain level, but, again, they are from earlier Man United teams - the team which had the "winning mentality" came along later, but I can't think of one proven manager that the more successful team of the nineties produced.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

I'd say few did because those low profile players had less ability to do so. Easier for FAW to threaten a lesser team with sanctions than Man Yoo.

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I think in the end it comes down to you view friendly matches.
For me they fall into 2 categories, you have the high profile game against a large football nation with,hopfully a superstar or two to put bums on seats and make some money or you have a game against a lesser nation to try out other players in a match situation which is ,more or less a training game that you charge the public to watch.
I wouldn't expect to see a full strength Welsh team in the latter in the same way as i wouldnt expect to see a full strength city team in the first round of the league cup.

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Originally Posted by qccfc

I felt Giggs laid down a marker, for the rest of the squad, these matches then felt worthless, and that feeling flowed into all the other players and eventually the fans.

Giggs didn't play a friendly for 9 years. No friendlies are pointless, you improve your FIFA ranking you get put in better pots for International tournaments, you make qualification a bit easier.

Recently we haven't played that many friendlies, which i believe is sensible, but when we have, the spirit and the commitment of the squad cannot be questioned.

If you look at Ronaldo (147 caps) and Messi (123 caps) it shows that you can play international football and compete at the very highest level.

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That may be the case now, but it certainly wasn't when Giggs was playing.
Friendlies were meaningless then.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

But surely winners with winning mentalities would be alpha males, huh? I mean what would Fergie do? Sell one of his best players to spite his face? Not pay him at Man Yoo? Giggs was utterly complicit in missing Welsh games. I can really imagine Fergie telling Keane to tell the FAI to sod off...

In reality the FAW bottled it. Should have applied the rules and forced Giggs to be evaluated fully by FAW staff.

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Please stop calling them Man Yoo it makes you sound about 9.

Fergie sold many of his best players after falling out with them. Staam, Van Nistlerooy, Beckham, Keane when he challenged his authority, albeit on the way down.

Got to get behind him now he has the job.
He’s a Man Utd legend, not a Welsh one.
He now has the opportunity to become a Welsh legend.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Grow up. You've got be be at least 50 with a wife and kids.

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LeAdEr!

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Please stop calling them Man Yoo it makes you sound about 9.

Fergie sold many of his best players after falling out with them. Staam, Van Nistlerooy, Beckham, Keane when he challenged his authority, albeit on the way down.

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Sorry for insulting your favourite team. :hehe:

So are you thus implying alpha male winning mentality Giggs failed at any point to say "sorry Boss, I'm playing for my nation not faking an injury" then? Or are you conceding that for Giggs, staying at Man Yew was the only thing on his mind?

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Phil Neville, Paul Ince and Roy Keane also have that Man Yoo winning mentality.

Shit at football management mind.

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Who has Phil Neville managed?

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Who has Phil Neville managed?

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Salford City.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Sorry for insulting your favourite team. :hehe:

So are you thus implying alpha male winning mentality Giggs failed at any point to say "sorry Boss, I'm playing for my nation not faking an injury" then? Or are you conceding that for Giggs, staying at Man Yew was the only thing on his mind?

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Winning things was the only thing on his mind. Winning mentality see.

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

Salford City.

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Caretaker charge for 1 game, which they won, makes him a shit manager? :hehe:

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Originally Posted by qccfc

I never really like Giggs in his Wales playing days, as a fan who was at every game to see him not turn up for Wales, but then play for Manchester United on the weekend was a constant betrayal. The decision sent the message that the games were not important and it spread through the squad, and then to the fan base, why should we pay our money when the star attraction cannot be bothered.

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This, I took 3 / 4 days off work ( sometimes without pay ) to go and watch Wales around Europe

Friendlies or Games that were meaningless ( due to failed qualifications ) It didnt matter to me, i was going to support my Country, Cheer on the team.

When you learnt that Giggs had pulled out of the squad ( pre internet days ) despite playing for Man Utd on Saturday , it became a bit of a joke, almost expected, how can a player think so little of his country that he couldnt be arsed to play ( i know i have mentioned i represented Wales in Judo ) you have no greater honour to represent your country in sport, it should be the pinnacle, it just wasnt for him, so how can he expect respect from todays players ? ? ? Saying " Oh I won this and that for man utd " will not cut it

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Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton

To me what got Coleman there (apart from Bale) was his passion about being Welsh - he is of course a Jack just like Hartson so did have a battle with Is bluebirds (one in particular 😀).

I can’t imagine Giggs using Bale’s quote at the euros about all he needed was the dragon on his chest as motivation, whereas I can pictures Bellamy doing and saying exactly the same thing

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This :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Caretaker charge for 1 game, which they won, makes him a shit manager? :hehe:

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You asked who he managed. Don't get arsey because you didn't know the answer. :hehe:

Just read an interesting Gary Neville quote tbh.

Along the lines of his international career was a waste of time, Man Yew was always more important. I'd suspect that was something Ferguson drummed into the young players, couldn't try that crap with Keane. if that was the case, how can Giggs thus tell anyone anything different?

"Oh Ben, I know Klopp doesn't want you playing in these friendlies but it would really be good for you. Yes, Utd was more important for me but wales should be more important for you".

On that score, he's got little credibility if he asks players to do something he was unwilling to do himself.

Well he’s got the job now hasn’t he. We’ll just have to hope he’s more enthusiastic than he looks, (I’ve always thought he constantly looks like someone who’s trying to remember where he left his keys).

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Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life

You asked who he managed. Don't get arsey because you didn't know the answer. :hehe:

Just read an interesting Gary Neville quote tbh.

Along the lines of his international career was a waste of time, Man Yew was always more important. I'd suspect that was something Ferguson drummed into the young players, couldn't try that crap with Keane. if that was the case, how can Giggs thus tell anyone anything different?

"Oh Ben, I know Klopp doesn't want you playing in these friendlies but it would really be good for you. Yes, Utd was more important for me but wales should be more important for you".

On that score, he's got little credibility if he asks players to do something he was unwilling to do himself.

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On that score? What? An imaginary conversation youve played out in your head?

Bizarre