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Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Think most agree that an alienation has occurred within Labours traditional supporter's , not the membership, but those who actually vote governments in and out of power, these voters are not left or right leaning , they are considered as a floating voter, with a moral social conscious, would they find Clive Lewis an effective and appealing opposition leader.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
He is very much unproven. Not convinced he is the right man.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
He is very much unproven. Not convinced he is the right man.
Trouble is who is proven, don't you think some fresh youthful , no baggaged, non 1970's type of candidate might improve matters , from where the party are now
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Trouble is who is proven, don't you think some fresh youthful , no baggaged, non 1970's type of candidate might improve matters , from where the party are now
Yes fair comment but whoever becomes leader will be faced with a hostile right wing press looking to destroy them. Its called democracy
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
Yes fair comment but whoever becomes leader will be faced with a hostile right wing press looking to destroy them. Its called democracy
It's OK. They are all Fake News now.
yeah .. :ohwell:
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
Yes fair comment but whoever becomes leader will be faced with a hostile right wing press looking to destroy them. Its called democracy
Right wing press has always been their , and Labour has put up better opposition arguments , and had won more seats , love or hate him , Blair beat or circumvented them on more than one occasion, so it can done , at the moment the Tories have a free run to the next election.
Labour desperatly needs cleverer politicians, and I hate to say it , a Alistair Campbell type of press spin machine.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Right wing press has always been their , and Labour has put up better opposition arguments , and had won more seats , love or hate him , Blair beat or circumvented them on more than one occasion, so it can done , at the moment the Tories have a free run to the next election.
Labour desperatly needs cleverer politicians, and I hate to say it , a Alistair Campbell type of press spin machine.
Excuse me, but are you a nutter or have you just been taking drugs? No sane person would ever say we need another Alistair Campbell - an alcoholic pornographer who bullied and lied for his evil masters. He is supposed to have wept when Maxwell died. Let's hope he tops himself when Blair goes.
The negative stories about Corbyn are mainly because he can't be controlled by Israel. Were you asleep when that it was shown the other month that many of the Labour - and Conservative - MPs answer to their paymasters in the Israeli embassy?
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
Yes fair comment but whoever becomes leader will be faced with a hostile right wing press looking to destroy them. Its called democracy
:hehe: Come on Pearcey, you know that crap works both ways.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Vincent
Excuse me, but are you a nutter or have you just been taking drugs? No sane person would ever say we need another Alistair Campbell - an alcoholic pornographer who bullied and lied for his evil masters. He is supposed to have wept when Maxwell died. Let's hope he tops himself when Blair goes.
The negative stories about Corbyn are mainly because he can't be controlled by Israel. Were you asleep when that it was shown the other month that many of the Labour - and Conservative - MPs answer to their paymasters in the Israeli embassy?
Sometimes you sound just like ...
:oh: :tumbleweed:
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vimana.
Sometimes you sound just like ...
:oh: :tumbleweed:
I think he was banned before the Israeli embassy scandal, but that story showed he knew what he was talking about. I wish he'd come back here and liven the place up.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Vincent
Excuse me, but are you a nutter or have you just been taking drugs? No sane person would ever say we need another Alistair Campbell - an alcoholic pornographer who bullied and lied for his evil masters. He is supposed to have wept when Maxwell died. Let's hope he tops himself when Blair goes.
The negative stories about Corbyn are mainly because he can't be controlled by Israel. Were you asleep when that it was shown the other month that many of the Labour - and Conservative - MPs answer to their paymasters in the Israeli embassy?
Fake news.
If you want some of my drugs go to www.notnutsrealitycheck.com
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
It's not fake news. There are links to the documentary and a summary below. Corbyn is not sufficiently pro-Israel for them.
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/is...byn-1016879568
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc
Do you think it is a coincidence that the most anti-Corbyn MPs are all in Labour Friends of Israel. Just look at some of the anti-Corbyn antics of some of these people. They have even heckled their own party leader during Prime Minister's questions. Just look up the anti-Corbyn actions by MPs like Mike Grapes, Louise Ellman, John Mann and Joan Ryan.
The fact that Labour voters in Stoke were even willing to vote an obvious idiot into Parliament the other day shows that rank and file Labour voters still support Corbyn. They were voting for Corbyn not the idiot.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
:hehe: Come on Pearcey, you know that crap works both ways.
So you think May has been given the same treatment as Corbyn then? I think not.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
So you think May has been given the same treatment as Corbyn then? I think not.
That's the press though not democracy, who was to blame when Labour last won an election? not the right wing press, if you see what I mean.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mrs Steve R
That's the press though not democracy, who was to blame when Labour last won an election? not the right wing press, if you see what I mean.
I see what you mean but the press spread a lot of lies and it does impact upon what people think. Even the BBC were at it. Their old senior political commentator Nick Robinson who is a Tory felt they were biased against Corbyn. May has had a very easy ride by comparison.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
So you think May has been given the same treatment as Corbyn then? I think not.
We have a free press, get over it. May has barely put a foot wrong since becoming PM, Corbyn and his cronies are a gaffe a minute. Every lefty in this country sounds like Trump supporters prattling on about his treatment by the MSM.
As for the BBC well they hate Corbyn, Trump, Brexit and the SNP. They have long been the media wing for New Labour.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bluebird since 1948
We have a free press, get over it. May has barely put a foot wrong since becoming PM, Corbyn and his cronies are a gaffe a minute. Every lefty in this country sounds like Trump supporters prattling on about his treatment by the MSM.
As for the BBC well they hate Corbyn, Trump, Brexit and the SNP. They have long been the media wing for New Labour.
May has been appalling but then again I am as one eyed as you. At least I will admit it.
As for the free press bit our media is controlled by billionaires who don't even live in this country. Thats why May was so desperate to meet Murdoch so she could get him onside. The press is only free in that certain powerful press barons can press for their own agendas.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bluebird since 1948
We have a free press, get over it. May has barely put a foot wrong since becoming PM, Corbyn and his cronies are a gaffe a minute. Every lefty in this country sounds like Trump supporters prattling on about his treatment by the MSM.
As for the BBC well they hate Corbyn, Trump, Brexit and the SNP. They have long been the media wing for New Labour.
I think you are mistaken on almost every count here. :-)
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bluebird since 1948
We have a free press, get over it. May has barely put a foot wrong since becoming PM, Corbyn and his cronies are a gaffe a minute. Every lefty in this country sounds like Trump supporters prattling on about his treatment by the MSM.
As for the BBC well they hate Corbyn, Trump, Brexit and the SNP. They have long been the media wing for New Labour.
In what sense is the press free?
There are some pockets of independent thought, news and analysis, but overwhelmingly the news and editorial elements of the print and online press is determined by the interests of offshore billionaires and commercial advertisers - with an overlay of lobbyist spin and packaged press releases that fit into the priorities set above. The GMB and Amnesty are free to issue their press releases. The Mail is free to ignore them, and select the stories and angles that favour its advertisers, the Tory Party, and other interests that that newspaper has traditionally promoted.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Vincent
Excuse me, but are you a nutter or have you just been taking drugs? No sane person would ever say we need another Alistair Campbell - an alcoholic pornographer who bullied and lied for his evil masters. He is supposed to have wept when Maxwell died. Let's hope he tops himself when Blair goes.
The negative stories about Corbyn are mainly because he can't be controlled by Israel. Were you asleep when that it was shown the other month that many of the Labour - and Conservative - MPs answer to their paymasters in the Israeli embassy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Vincent
It's not fake news. There are links to the documentary and a summary below. Corbyn is not sufficiently pro-Israel for them.
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/is...byn-1016879568
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc
Do you think it is a coincidence that the most anti-Corbyn MPs are all in Labour Friends of Israel. Just look at some of the anti-Corbyn antics of some of these people. They have even heckled their own party leader during Prime Minister's questions. Just look up the anti-Corbyn actions by MPs like Mike Grapes, Louise Ellman, John Mann and Joan Ryan.
The fact that Labour voters in Stoke were even willing to vote an obvious idiot into Parliament the other day shows that rank and file Labour voters still support Corbyn. They were voting for Corbyn not the idiot.
I think it is an exaggeration to say that the anti-Corbyn stories are [U]mainly[/U] because of his stance on Israel/Palestine, but I agree that is a significant factor - and one of the main lines of attack with the anti-semitism allegations that have disintegrated on closer examination. The most prominent internal critics and slanderers are also LFI members, but not all of them. There are political/ideological opponents of Corbyn in the PLP (many dancing to the Israeli Embassy tune), but the larger number are MPs who see him as naive and a poor party leader (although an effective issues based campaigner and dissident agitator). The majority are more concerned about their seats and ministerial prospects than with illegal settlement expansion on the West Bank.
I came across this open letter today, from Tony Greenstein to Joan Ryan, written on 8 January. I knew Tony years ago when I was very active politically (no longer) and always respected him. It is a searing attack on the hypocrisy of the Labour Friends of Israel (and the same applies to the Conservative Friends of Israel) when they shout 'anti semite' at campaigners for justice for Palestinians:
http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/ope...riends-israel/
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I think it is an exaggeration to say that the anti-Corbyn stories are [U]
mainly[/U] because of his stance on Israel/Palestine, but I agree that is a significant factor - and one of the main lines of attack with the anti-semitism allegations that have disintegrated on closer examination. The most prominent internal critics and slanderers are also LFI members, but not all of them. There are political/ideological opponents of Corbyn in the PLP (many dancing to the Israeli Embassy tune), but the larger number are MPs who see him as naive and a poor party leader (although an effective issues based campaigner and dissident agitator). The majority are more concerned about their seats and ministerial prospects than with illegal settlement expansion on the West Bank.
I came across this open letter today, from Tony Greenstein to Joan Ryan, written on 8 January. I knew Tony years ago when I was very active politically (no longer) and always respected him. It is a searing attack on the hypocrisy of the Labour Friends of Israel (and the same applies to the Conservative Friends of Israel) when they shout 'anti semite' at campaigners for justice for Palestinians:
http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/ope...riends-israel/
Joan Ryan showed in the video that you can deflect any criticism of Israel with an antisemitism complaint. What annoyed me most about her behaviour is that she is being paid to represent her constituents and yet she is spending her time acting on behalf of a foreign country. It is a bit like seeing someone you have paid to fix your house spending his time fixing your neighbour's house instead.
I agree that most MPs are just concerned with keeping their well paid jobs and they want someone in charge who will increase their chances of that. But these MPs don't want to be seen rocking the boat. I think we are also agreed about the fact that the MPs who are most openly rocking the boat seem to be the Labour Friends of Israel members.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
I look at Trump in America and Corbyn in this country and see the same thing. For many, their opinion of either man rests with how they align themselves on issues and I'd be lying if I said this wasn't a factor in how I judge them, but, far more, my opinion is formed on what sort of man they appear to be - in both cases, they strike me as being someone who is wrong temperamentally for their current job.
In Corbyn's case, Jon's use of the term "naive and a poor party leader" describes how I perceive the man to a tee. Of course, his cause is not helped by a press that might be "free", but is largely in the hands of parties who would feel that the last thing they would want to see from their paper, and those who work for them, is the sort of independent, pioneering and campaigning journalism that should be a byword for any press that is truly free.
However, Labour leaders who never cosyed up to the likes of Murdoch in the way that Blair did, have been able to be effective leaders of their party in the face of an overwhelmingly hostile press, so it's wrong to assume Corbyn never had a chance to get the country behind him. Truth is, a relatively small number of disciples apart, the country sees him for what he is - a serial dissenter who has never, ever, shown he had it in him to lead his party effectively.
Against my better judgement, I was willing to give Corbyn a chance when he was elected because the idea of someone who was so different from the other "career politician" candidates appealed to me a little, but my loss of any faith in him I had has nothing to do with his views on Israel/Palestine (except to the extent that they tend to emphasise the way he fails to connect with your average British worker), it's because he is such a gift to a Conservative party which, currently, looks set for another decade or more in power while doing very little to suggest that they are persuading little more than around a third of the country around to their way of thinking.
For me, to suggest that Labour won the Stoke Central by election because of Corbyn is laughable. They won it because of the sort of tribal Labour vote that the party has relied heavily on for generations, but the evidence is that they will not be able to do so for much longer - they need far better than what Corbyn has to offer if they are to become any sort of decent opposition party.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
If the Labour vote is "tribal" then any leader will do and there is no reason to remove Corbyn.
Corbyn has a problem with his presentation and the mainstream media are using this against him. They did the same thing with Michael Foot. But if we just rely on presentation to judge people then we up with con artists like Blair. It boils down to whether you want a leader with principles or do you want someone who is only in politics for the money. I suppose there are more charismatic MPs who would increase the chances of Labour being elected but what is the point of putting someone in power who acts according to self-interest rather than principles. Nearly all MPs are just there for the money. I haven't noticed many Labour MPs other than Corbyn who stand out as principled and decent.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Unfortunately personality and presentation holds way too much sway. It always did to some extent, but it certainly does now.
I doubt that Corbyn will attract many voters that are not already at least warmed towards him.
It really is a catch-22. There is no point in having alternative, decent policies (nor even serve as a full-strength opposition) if you stand little chance of being elected to implement them.
There is no point in abandoning your policies, putting on a cheesy smile and lurching towards the centre ground solely in order to get elected as some kind of political eunuch .
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
This is a good civil debate with interesting arguments on both sides, but I would like to see a bit more pushing of the boundaries and thinking outside of the box. This is 2017 and all the rules are about to be rewritten, and the past is about to become irrelevant. It won't be long before the storm clouds from across the Atlantic reach our shores. We are living in momentous times, so it's time for everybody to open their minds and broaden their outlooks. Whatever you think is impossible or unbelievable today, may not be so impossible or unbelievable tomorrow.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
I voted for Corbyn as a Registered Supporter first time around, and would have done again in the second election if I hadn't been disenfranchised by Labour Party administrative cock-ups. That was after carrying a membership card from 1985-2013 (and a period earlier in the late 70s). I hoped to see a different type of politics emerge, based on mass active party membership, informed and wide-ranging debate and campaigning, digital inclusive communication and all located in an international context where globalised people-power and resistance could stand up to globalised capital. I was also attracted to the idea that the Labour Party could have a purpose beyond that of an electoral machine where (in the last 25 years at least) the poor bloody infantry - whether ordinary members or the wider pool of supporters - were taken for granted, excluded from policy making, and used as nothing but a source of funding and door-knocking. Corbyn seemed to offer that prospect, and the supporter/member growth backed that early optimism.
However, I never gave up on the idea that any party to be effective had to go beyond campaigning to taking hold of governmental power, in order to make the changes needed. Corbyn could have been a left wing populist of the sort that has emerged in Spain, Greece and Portugal (and to some extent with Bernie Sanders in the USA) and used that to mount an effective push for electoral success. However, he hasn't been able to do that, and is going backwards rather than forward in public support. It isn't all his fault - he has been under siege from enemies inside and outside the Labour Party. The deck is stacked against him. But he could and should have played his hand much better. I have become disillusioned with him as a leader (or even the figurehead of a larger leadership group), and many people I know who shared my early hope now think the same.
There is still time for the left of the Labour Party to find a more effective leader, but as every month passes the window for that sort of progressive and populist reboot closes more. The PLP and party machine are working quietly and (I think) effectively to stop any new candidate of the left winning the leadership (they have learned after the failed coup last year), and time is running out to reposition and reinvent Labour to be able to challenge at the next election.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I hoped to see a different type of politics emerge, based on mass active party membership, informed and wide-ranging debate and campaigning, digital inclusive communication and all located in an international context where globalised people-power and resistance could stand up to globalised capital.
It could possibly still happen, but it won't be under Corbyn. He was beaten by the establishment machinery, because he engaged them on their own terms. Trump, Farage and Let Pen simply dismiss the current hierarchy, which seems to be the better strategy. But events may just overtake everybody, as a tsunami is building that once unleashed will be impossible to stop.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
The truth of it all really is we have an electorate that doesn't want a return to far left or right , they want fairness and justice , but not to the point where we borrow and fund for the sake of it , rather than hold to account the mechanisms of how they are managed and deployed. That might be delivering unpopular decisions that dont naturally sit within the socialist agenda ,on matters such as , way too much immigration stop , NHS funding it cant be sustained ,local government must be accountable and efficient .
Its easy to moan and grown about the rich , inheritance tax , etc, etc , that wont fund the expectations of the billions of pounds needed to fund social care , NHS , Education , Policing , Prisons, no cap on household benefits ,disability , building houses /roads its almost and endless wish list , easy to say difficult to fund , which I personally cant figure out how we could fund it, in its present state ??.
You cant just endlessly borrow, you have to look at clever taxation, how /who has the right to benefits , hey, why not charge for certain GP visits , charge drunks filling up A and E on weekends , at the expense of real treatment, or say sorry we dont agree with these unnecessary strikes its effecting normal people lives and your paid enough , nope we need pension reform it cant be sustained , yes we agree Trident is needed or we may need armed combat , we never hear that language , its always about establishment , taxation , blah ,blah, blah .
All I do know the top end rich are not the majority ,taxing them wont fix this, we need their wealth to provide private sector jobs.
Instead of appearing to be looking at the problem with envy ,moans and protests , we need Labour to be visionary /different thinking ,brave of view , and stick that in the faces of the opposition , to stimulate debate the electorate , not turn them off at every utterance .
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Vincent
If the Labour vote is "tribal" then any leader will do and there is no reason to remove Corbyn.
Corbyn has a problem with his presentation and the mainstream media are using this against him. They did the same thing with Michael Foot. But if we just rely on presentation to judge people then we up with con artists like Blair. It boils down to whether you want a leader with principles or do you want someone who is only in politics for the money. I suppose there are more charismatic MPs who would increase the chances of Labour being elected but what is the point of putting someone in power who acts according to self-interest rather than principles. Nearly all MPs are just there for the money. I haven't noticed many Labour MPs other than Corbyn who stand out as principled and decent.
Good post. Ideally Labour need a leader with charisma and principles who won't be a softer version of any given Tory leader.
They need to be able to keep the press at arms length too and be able to deflect the barrage of press hostility that will come their way. That isn't easy
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
It could possibly still happen, but it won't be under Corbyn. He was beaten by the establishment machinery, because he engaged them on their own terms. Trump, Farage and Let Pen simply dismiss the current hierarchy, which seems to be the better strategy. But events may just overtake everybody, as a tsunami is building that once unleashed will be impossible to stop.
Yep interesting post BUT crucially Corbyn doesn't get the airtime that Trump receives so its harder to get any message across but agreed he needs to attack the establishment in a similar vein to Trump.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
In Corbyn's defence it was one of rhe dullesf budgets in living history. The footballing equivalent would be a 0/0 draw between Reading and Cardiff on a damp Tuesday night
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
I have to say I agree with both of the last two posts by and large, though I felt that Corbyn made some fair points in response to a rather wishy-washy, almost Brexit agnostic budget and in the waft of a gallery of nodding donkeys and an undignified, grotesque guffawing PM (seeing as we are talking about style/delivery as well as content) ;)
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Increasingly, and outside the personality judgement ,what are the answers and ideas to deal with deficit, funding NHS which is the 5th biggest organisation in the world , education, policing,and the great unknown, the ultimate effects of Brexit.
Perhaps caution was called for in budgeting on this occasion, and I'm no fan of the Tory machine.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pearcey3
Good post. Ideally Labour need a leader with charisma and principles who won't be a softer version of any given Tory leader.
They need to be able to keep the press at arms length too and be able to deflect the barrage of press hostility that will come their way. That isn't easy
The "tribal" Labour vote still exists, but there is clear evidence that it is in decline (it's all but disappeared in Scotland) - if things keep on going as they are, elections like the one in Stoke Central are going to become fewer and fewer.
I have sympathy for Labour because it seems vast swaths of the electorate blame them for the 2008 crash in this country, when the truth as I see it is that their only crime was to try to out tory the tories by being more laissez faire than the Conservatives when it came to regulating the crooks and spivs in the banking sector. This is one of the main reasons why this would be a very testing time for Labour no matter who was in charge of them, but, with someone as ineffectual and limited as Corbyn is proving to be, they've got no chance.
As I said before, once you strip away all of the political stuff with Corbyn, you are left with someone who is just not a natural leader (he's spent nearly all of his working life rebelling against them!). The more I see of him, the more convinced I become that he just doesn't have it in him to get the naturally left inclined electorate and/or those in the centre who have been inclined to "give Labour a chance" in the past to unite against a Government that, for all of the fact that they look unbeatable currently, should be very vulnerable given the mood of the country.
My reservations with Corbyn are more to do with the type of man he is, rather than his policies, but I must say that he has been wholly unimpressive when it comes to the issue of the EU referendum. The debate before the vote largely took place without him or his party because it was so obvious that he was torn between two stools as to which side he should support and so he ended up watching the whole thing from the wings. Since the vote, he has tried to act the hard man with his party and ended up looking foolish - surely even the 600,000 who keep on electing him as the man they think best suited to win the support of the 40 million or so eligible to vote are beginning to realise that Corbyn just isn't up to the job?
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Fair comment Paul. However Corbyn is unfairly criticised over the EU Referendum compared with May. She hid during that campaign purely for political gain.
You are right about Labour still suffering from the 2008 įrash. The Tories have exploited it ruthlessly. They tend to be more ruthless than Labour. Time for Labour politicians to fight back.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ninianclark
I find some of the points made above about a defence of Labour incredulous. lol - Labours only fault was trying to out do the Tories, the crash happened to everyone - but it was the positioning of the economy by G Brown, the PFI debt, the un regulated banks (the light hand on the tilla of banks) etc etc etc - anyway - weve had that argument countless times.
Corbyn is a Brexiteer, he voted for LEAVE in 1975, he has voted against Maastricht - and his reasons for doing so - I support. I also (believe it or not) support his stance that the EU needs reform badly. He voted against the Lisbon treaty to. He is not a leader of a party in any way shape or form - but I do listen to what he has to say - some of it makes sense and I agree with.
THE problem though - we all want to live in an Utopian world - no one can deliver that.
Ask anyone - we have 1.7 trillion DEBT, each year we spend 50 BILLION more than we raise in taxes - what would you do then as a politician , how would you get the yearly deficit down ?
AND please dont say tax large corporations etc - we cant do that as they can domicile themselves wherever they want in Europe (EU law) - which is why Google et al are based in Ireland. Maybe post Brexit if they want to trade in the UK they will have to pay the right amount of tax on goods / services sold here.
Waffle over - ps if Chris Lewis is the answer - it is one hell of a silly question.
Chris Lewis isn't the answer. Not even the suggested answer.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I voted for Corbyn as a Registered Supporter first time around, and would have done again in the second election if I hadn't been disenfranchised by Labour Party administrative cock-ups. That was after carrying a membership card from 1985-2013 (and a period earlier in the late 70s). I hoped to see a different type of politics emerge, based on mass active party membership, informed and wide-ranging debate and campaigning, digital inclusive communication and all located in an international context where globalised people-power and resistance could stand up to globalised capital. I was also attracted to the idea that the Labour Party could have a purpose beyond that of an electoral machine where (in the last 25 years at least) the poor bloody infantry - whether ordinary members or the wider pool of supporters - were taken for granted, excluded from policy making, and used as nothing but a source of funding and door-knocking. Corbyn seemed to offer that prospect, and the supporter/member growth backed that early optimism.
However, I never gave up on the idea that any party to be effective had to go beyond campaigning to taking hold of governmental power, in order to make the changes needed. Corbyn could have been a left wing populist of the sort that has emerged in Spain, Greece and Portugal (and to some extent with Bernie Sanders in the USA) and used that to mount an effective push for electoral success. However, he hasn't been able to do that, and is going backwards rather than forward in public support. It isn't all his fault - he has been under siege from enemies inside and outside the Labour Party. The deck is stacked against him. But he could and should have played his hand much better. I have become disillusioned with him as a leader (or even the figurehead of a larger leadership group), and many people I know who shared my early hope now think the same.
There is still time for the left of the Labour Party to find a more effective leader, but as every month passes the window for that sort of progressive and populist reboot closes more. The PLP and party machine are working quietly and (I think) effectively to stop any new candidate of the left winning the leadership (they have learned after the failed coup last year), and time is running out to reposition and reinvent Labour to be able to challenge at the next election.
I can see that you haven't got it yet. You sound like some International Socialist from the 1970s. All this talk about left and right is meaningless now. As Wales-Bales has pointed out, it now elites verses the populists. Although the mainstream media like to portray populists like Le Pen as far right she is in fact not classifiable as left or right. Corbyn is the nearest you have got to a populist leader in the Labour Party - i.e. someone opposed to the elites.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
David Vincent
I can see that you haven't got it yet. You sound like some International Socialist from the 1970s. All this talk about left and right is meaningless now. As Wales-Bales has pointed out, it now elites verses the populists. Although the mainstream media like to portray populists like Le Pen as far right she is in fact not classifiable as left or right. Corbyn is the nearest you have got to a populist leader in the Labour Party - i.e. someone opposed to the elites.
Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll stick with my own language and analysis. If I ever get to the sad stage of agreeing with either you or Wales-Bales I will certainly have 'got it', and I don't want 'it'.
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Re: Clive Lewis Is He The Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll stick with my own language and analysis. If I ever get to the sad stage of agreeing with either you or Wales-Bales I will certainly have 'got it', and I don't want 'it'.
David Vincent's last message reads suspiciously like someone who has come up with a way of explaining away why he now thinks politically in a way that would have made him feel uncomfortable a few decades ago. It's that old journey from socialist firebrand in your teens and twenties to "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" in your "dotage - I was thinking of it as a journey from left to right, but, apparently such terms don't exist any more.
I think it's not much of an exaggeration to say that I have been anti elite for fifty years or more, but I'll have to rethink that if being anti elite now means you must support racists like Le Pen, Wilders and Farage.