Why are we paying for this?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68496320
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Why are we paying for this?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68496320
It is madness.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
If she libels someone in a personal capacity she pays the damages and costs herself.
But if she claims to have committed the libel as a government minister, we pay for her!
Doesn't this breach the ministerial code - or is that so debased now that no one cares?
Penny Mourdant was shameful yesterday in supporting her
I thought does she really think we are stupid ?
No surprise that the board's Conservative voters are giving this thread a wide berth I suppose, but I would have thought something like this goes beyond party politics.
who are the conservative voters on here ?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Well, I would have thought that those who slavishly defend the Government in threads on here are - don't worry, I'm not accusing the Board's "independent thinkers" of being tory voters, they're above such trivial things as party politics unless it's in America.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZER2
Small change really that 15k.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ate-legal-bill
God you are so divisive!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Agree with me, or you slavishly defend the government!
Surprised you didn't accuse anyone not in agreement of literally taking the money from babies mouths to pay the bill!
The reality of course is far simpler. If someone makes a mistake in the course of their job they rarely pick up the tab. The bloke in the council who lays paving that someone trips on won't be sued personally and it's the same here. Thought you supported workers rights?
Where I would agree is that hopefully it leads to less mudslinging on twitter. Something that demeans every one of us really and will also mean a great many in opposition now will need to wind their necks in if in government!
It's another thing you've been successfully wound up about whereas what you want to see here would set an extremely dangerous principle that would be far more damaging
As someone who doesn't get involved in the right v left spats on here, your comparing faulty paving with a very deliberate libel is totally ingenuous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
You really do pick out arguments that suit your agenda and yet stay almost silent on matters that don’t fit with your narrative. It’s hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
How about commenting on this whopper or many more if required ?
Welsh government admits failing to follow law apparently when cancelling free school meals.
Jeremy Miles who wants to be First Minister said they could not afford to do it.
But they could afford new road signs for 20mph speed limits (costing more)��
And here he comes - slavish defender number one!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Once again, no link I see, but, assuming what you say is right, the WAG are wrong in that case, what more do you want me to say?Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
That's more than you'll ever get from the slavish defenders of the Westminster Government mind.
Absolutely spot on. Even the most swivel eyed Tory must be able to comprehend the difference between a genuine error during the execution of work and a deliberately provocative and idiotic attack?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
The self-serving, intellectually challenged gobshite should have been made to pay all the expenses herself and removed from Westminster unceremoniously by the ear.
So have I got the facts right here:
She wrote a letter to a public body, claiming incorrectly that this professor was a terrorist supporter, with no evidence to support it.
Then chose to make that letter public by tweeting it out.
Lost a defamation case which was then paid by her government department.
is that about right?
to be honest I'm in 2 minds about whether she should pay it herself or her work should pay it. I can see an argument that she thought she was acting in a professional capacity, and £15k is a piss in the ocean of the money the tories have wasted.
However she should definitely lose her job.
She's tried to throw a professor under the bus in order to gain some kind of culture war brownie points - potentially wrecking someone's career in the process - there used to be consequences for this kind of thing, not that long ago.
The point is , it wouldn’t matter who was elected , they are both “cheeks of the same derrière” regardlessQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
It cost the tax payer 15k - is that it ? feck me Wilson havent you got better things to do than jump up and down over 15k?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
ps - if you want to know a secret I have some good friends at the beeb in Cardiff both floor staff and some that present. They are conservative with a small c - but they never talk politics at work because due to bullying and abhorrent behaviour of others. To quote one "At work it is like the far left of Starma - like Corbyn on steroids, I just dont respond"
I'll answer your point though to my mind slander is a person thing - unless she was quoting am official Whitehall source - in which case it is definitely a civil service problem - as in they have got their news wrong.
And here’s slavish defender number 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by pipster
Nearly five hours ago, I said in this thread that something like this should be above party politics, it’s just wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
No, I just disagree with you for the reasons outlined.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
It's not defending her. I just understand why the employer paid. As do you, you just can't seem to think straight if the situation involves a Tory, but that law doesn't discriminate in the same way you do, thankfully!
Again, you are just being divisive. You present a situation that goes with legal precedent and anyone who disagrees is "slavishly" defending something.
Ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I notice you have not replied to TBG, not surprising really because he nailed it didn’t he.
The problem with you is that it is really hard to believe we’d see the same reaction if it had been a member of the WAG that did what Michelle Donelan did - same with Pipster.
Legally it's the same principle. She made a libellous mistake in the course of her work. Be careful what you wish for in terms of legal precedent!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Oh right, maybe you can illustrate your point by pointing to all the times I've started threads on WG ministers, the WG in general, or where I have labelled anyone slavish merely for believing in legal precedent?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
You'll be wasting your time Bob. Its annoying of course, she shouldn't have done it, but don't pretend this is an honourable thread, as there are far far greater wastes of public money that you choose to overlook for political reasons
Im not quite sure what you actually wanted to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
People to not respond to your thread ?
People to respond to your thread (who god forbid) may have disagreed with you - so you can trigger yourself?
Or people to 'slavishly' agree with you - so you can puff your chest out and feel good about yourself ?
The sun is shining - breath in , breath out , go and make love to your wife... you'll have a much better time
Damages for libel and damages due to injury caused by negligence are not the same principle at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
In terms of the responsibility it clearly is, as this is the precedent and that's why it happened. There's consequences to changing that if it was done in the name of the job, which in this case it was determined it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
The libel was issued via her own personal email account and she was being sued for libel personally in the first instance. It suited the government to conflate her personal and professional roles to get rid of the claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Clearly that doesn't matter, as she was referring to an issue well within her remit. If that's what the precedent is, I can accept that. My understanding is that the payout prevented a more protracted process that would have cost taxpayers more (not that this is the issue that people actually are bothered about here).Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
She shouldn't have done it, thats unquestionable, but I can see why she hasn't personally paid out.
I'm not going to get outraged given the sum and the sheer amount of other abuses of public money about.
The terrorist who murdered the Tory MP was given nearly ten times this sum in legal aid for example. That's the law, that's precedent, that's where we are.
You were doing alright with the 'legal precedent' argument. I disagree with you but it was at least coherent - even if the evidence seems to show Michelle Donelan slipping between the roles of culture warrior, Member of Parliament and Secretary of State heading a government department.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
But then you lost the plot. It does not help your argument to say that this is OK because they could have wasted even more public money by not conceding fault and paying damages. This is about principle not the size of the payout.
It helps even less when you throw legal aid expenditure into the pot to suggest this case is somehow trivial. I thought you had been a defender of legal aid in the past (or maybe that was Feedback in his latest incarnation?) - but anyway the murderer of David Amess wasn't 'given' the Legal Aid - it was paid (against a backdrop of a decade of aid cuts) to ensure that one part of the criminal justice system can continue to function. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty and everyone is entitled to representation and a defence in the courts. It is the bedrock of a civilised society - and under constant threat and challenge by people in Michelle Donelan's part of British politics and the press and media that support them.
I have no issue with legal aid, just as I have no issue with employees not bearing sole financial responsibility for mistakes made in work.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I made that example precisely to prove the point. We don't have to like everything, but the law is there for a reason and it is understandable that people sometimes get hot under the collar about it (whether it's £15k for defamation or £100k for a murder suspect). It is what it is and that's my point. That's the explanation.
It doesn't make anyone a "slavish government defender" any more than someone who defends legal aid (which on principle I do) makes them a "supporter of the terrorist act" in this example.
Councils, the NHS, govt depts get sued all the time, but individual staff don't personally pay out. We all know this, it's just this case happens to be a Tory so thats why some people think it should applied differently.
Stupid tweet? Yes. Should it damage her reputation and career? Yes. Should she personally have to foot the bill for a mistake relating to work? I don't think so, and precedent says not.
And yes, I do think if we are looking for wastes of tax payers money, this is up there. It was an expensive tweet, but by god there are better examples in every department, every council and every central or devolved government. I suspect that highlighting tax payers waste was not the driving force behind this thread though!
There you go again, making out you know what I’m thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
The amount of money involved here is relatively small I know, but I find it interesting and telling that you and Pipster have centred on the amount involved, whereas I look at the principle behind the issue. What Michelle Donelan did was disgraceful - it was not like some construction worker making an expensive mistake, she went out of her way to come down hard on someone who was innocent of what she was accused and Donelan then put pressure on what’s supposed to be an independent body to suspend her.
That should be a sacking offence for a politician of any party - why should I, or anyone else, pay towards making sure that Donelan escapes Scot free?
Because that's how things work. Why should I pay to fix any mistake made in any public sector organisation? Why shouldn't that person pay it themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I can go on and on, but won't because I think the point is made tbh.
I obviously agree with you that you can't accuse people of things without reason to do so, but I do understand why she isn't paying it out herself. That's the difference.
As Jon said earlier, was Donelan acting in an official capacity when she was posting libelous accusations on social media and was she carrying out her Ministerial brief when she put pressure on to get a suspension? I think that’s arguable at best because Donelan would appear to have acted on personal feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Evidently she got it wrong, but it's part of her remit to comment on such matters if she felt someone deeply inappropriate had been appointed to that board. No one disputes she got it wrong, she'll pay a price, but I don't think she, or any other politician would be paying the sum from their own pockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Just looked it up and taxpayers paid out £2.7bn in 2022/23 for claims and legal costs.
It's a huge issue and maybe we should scrutinise that a bit more too?
Sorry, that £2.7bn is NHS alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I thought this would be a sound thread, as clear as day that the Minister was in the wrong and acting in a libellous manner is no part of anyone’s job. But lo and behold, the same tossers are on here justifying it. Unreal.
So - anyone who dares disagree with your opinion is a tosser ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blue
....meanwhile....just see what they're doing to carers. https://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.ph...clear-his-name