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The game showed Harris' limitations
As a coach and manager. Cooper out thought Harris, changing the shape and personnel to negate Cardiff's only real tactic which is to get the ball forward as quickly as possible. Harris failed to alter the personnel during the game to combat Swansea's superiority. Some managers would have made changes before half time when they could see things were not working.
Harris was also at fault in not changing the players either for this game, or more importantly imo, the Stoke game.
We will be ok this season, but I dont want Harris to be given money to spend in January as I do not see his long term future here.
Blakey bangs on about identity. I think we have identity, a big strong physical side which is difficult to play against and scores many of its goals from set pieces. The problem is that we do not have a manager who can adjust tactically when the need arises.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Former Labour leader
As a coach and manager. Cooper out thought Harris, changing the shape and personnel to negate Cardiff's only real tactic which is to get the ball forward as quickly as possible. Harris failed to alter the personnel during the game to combat Swansea's superiority. Some managers would have made changes before half time when they could see things were not working.
Harris was also at fault in not changing the players either for this game, or more importantly imo, the Stoke game.
We will be ok this season, but I dont want Harris to be given money to spend in January as I do not see his long term future here.
Blakey bangs on about identity. I think we have identity, a big strong physical side which is difficult to play against and scores many of its goals from set pieces. The problem is that we do not have a manager who can adjust tactically when the need arises.
I don't think Cooper out-thought Harris, he just had better players at his disposal and a way of playing that generally causes us problems. Harris was too slow with his substitutions, but today was one of those days where, collectively as a club, we were second best by a distance.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I don't think Cooper out-thought Harris, he just had better players at his disposal and a way of playing that generally causes us problems. Harris was too slow with his substitutions, but today was one of those days where, collectively as a club, we were second best by a distance.
I think that's a big shout, Eric, saying Swansea have better players. Evidence please.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Former Labour leader
I think that's a big shout, Eric, saying Swansea have better players. Evidence please.
After 90 minutes today I saw 11 players who were comfortable on the ball, had some pace about them, read the game well, whose movement off the ball was significantly better, whose passing was significantly better. If our players were on a par we'd have matched them in those areas. We fell well short. We're ok if we drag teams down to our level, make it a bit of a battle, bombard them with aerial stuff and win lots of set pieces. Swansea barely allowed us to do that to them. We were that easy to work out and our players and management had no answer.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
I don’t think Swansea have better players - yes some but how many of their supposed superior midfield players would you take over our supposedly inferior midfield players - Grimes maybe? Corey Smith is no better than Pack and I don’t rate Jay Fulton . Lowe had only scored one goal before today, same as Harris then. The Jacks 2 wing backs are good and Guehli is a solid player but they’re not outstanding- they seemed to want it more than our team today, they started at a higher tempo and kept on the front foot all game. We started slowly and at no point did we pick the pace of the game up
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Don Corleone
I don’t think Swansea have better players - yes some but how many of their supposed superior midfield players would you take over our supposedly inferior midfield players - Grimes maybe? Corey Smith is no better than Pack and I don’t rate Jay Fulton . Lowe had only scored one goal before today, same as Harris then. The Jacks 2 wing backs are good and Guehli is a solid player but they’re not outstanding- they seemed to want it more than our team today, they started at a higher tempo and kept on the front foot all game. We started slowly and at no point did we pick the pace of the game up
Would Ralls, Vaulks or Pack get into the Swansea midfield. No chance. They can't pass the ball well enough or create opportunities.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Would Ralls, Vaulks or Pack get into the Swansea midfield. No chance. They can't pass the ball well enough or create opportunities.
Yes Ralls is miles better than Fulton and Korey Smith.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hilts
Yes Ralls is miles better than Fulton and Korey Smith.
Just not today.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
After 90 minutes today I saw 11 players who were comfortable on the ball, had some pace about them, read the game well, whose movement off the ball was significantly better, whose passing was significantly better. If our players were on a par we'd have matched them in those areas. We fell well short. We're ok if we drag teams down to our level, make it a bit of a battle, bombard them with aerial stuff and win lots of set pieces. Swansea barely allowed us to do that to them. We were that easy to work out and our players and management had no answer.
This is spot on.
However.....I don’t think that the JBs have better players than ours (I suspect that they’d love to have Wilson, Ono etc). In fact I think the opposite.
Yet Cooper is getting MUCH more from his players than Harris is as you quite accurately describe.
THAT is the difference.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
The difference was the way they set up. When we had the ball they closed us down quickly when they had the ball we let them run at us whilst we backed off until they were in crossing or shooting distance.
They wanted it more and in my opinion if a manager can't motivate his team for a derby game or change tactics when needing to then he shouldn't be here
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobby Dandruff
This is spot on.
However.....I don’t think that the JBs have better players than ours (I suspect that they’d love to have Wilson, Ono etc). In fact I think the opposite.
Yet Cooper is getting MUCH more from his players than Harris is as you quite accurately describe.
THAT is the difference.
All of their players are comfortable on the ball. Hardly any of ours are. THAT is the difference.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
All of their players are comfortable on the ball. Hardly any of ours are. THAT is the difference.
Absolutely, without a doubt. I'd also suggest they have better positional sense.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Just not today.
My bet is add in Ralls goals scored and assists against Smith and Fultons combined and Ralls comes out on top. Maybe even adding on the Swansea duos last seasons as well would see Ralls on top.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Would Ralls, Vaulks or Pack get into the Swansea midfield. No chance. They can't pass the ball well enough or create opportunities.
I think Pack would fit into Swansea's team quite well and Ralls is better than both Smith & Fulton
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
The 442 with Ralls and Vaulks didnt work.
I back Harris but coming out 2nd half with the same was shocking.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
If you turn the game into a scrap, we'll come out on top.
If we get on top early, we'll come out on top.
If you keep the ball and score early, we'll end up chasing shadows.
We've beaten 4 good sides recently but we couldn't get near Swansea today. They're a good side, their players are underrated and ours are vastly overrated. They defended ever so well, too. We've got a centre mid at right back and neither centre mid in our team can pass. Ralls in the right team could be very effective however, as we have seen.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hilts
The 442 with Ralls and Vaulks didnt work.
I back Harris but coming out 2nd half with the same was shocking.
I think there's going to be big changes in January. He's clearly run out of patience with Murphy, he doesn't rate Whyte and we can't play Pack, Vaulks and Ralls together. Basically, we've got no options.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
If you turn the game into a scrap, we'll come out on top.
If we get on top early, we'll come out on top.
If you keep the ball and score early, we'll end up chasing shadows.
We've beaten 4 good sides recently but we couldn't get near Swansea today. They're a good side, their players are underrated and ours are vastly overrated. They defended ever so well, too. We've got a centre mid at right back and neither centre mid in our team can pass. Ralls in the right team could be very effective however, as we have seen.
Interesting you say that about them defensively. They were fantastic.
I notice they were happy to foul just inside their own half and leave us launch aimless free kicks towards the box. They defended a high line. We got 4 or 5 flick ons into the 6 yard box to no-one as a result. When we did have throw-ins, corners and free kicks close to their box, I noticed how much of a height advantage we had. They doubled up, timed their leaps well and nullified our set pieces. They did the ugly things very well. Their game management was very good, too. It's no surprise that they've won lots of games 1-0.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
I think there's going to be big changes in January. He's clearly run out of patience with Murphy, he doesn't rate Whyte and we can't play Pack, Vaulks and Ralls together. Basically, we've got no options.
I hope so. It'll make or break Harris, providing he's backed by the board.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
If you turn the game into a scrap, we'll come out on top.
If we get on top early, we'll come out on top.
If you keep the ball and score early, we'll end up chasing shadows.
We've beaten 4 good sides recently but we couldn't get near Swansea today. They're a good side, their players are underrated and ours are vastly overrated. They defended ever so well, too. We've got a centre mid at right back and neither centre mid in our team can pass. Ralls in the right team could be very effective however, as we have seen.
‘4 good sides’? Did you watch any of the games?
Stoke were absolutely rubbish and Luton and Huddersfield little better.
Swansea are a good side (well they pass and move anyway) and so are Bournemouth.
We on the other hand are absolutely dreadful.
That cannot have escaped even your attention? (I’m assuming that you saw the game today and so were able to compare and contrast the two teams?)
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
What I saw was their players thinking two passes ahead and the 3rd man moving into space. Our lot were taking each pass like it was an isolated single intention.
We seem to ask our players to basically stick to their positions and not lose shape. Don't get me wrong, it does work in certain situations, but not yesterday.
We couldn't get a tackle in and Swansea broke up our promising moves with tactical fouls. Man City do it all the time.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
The game was over after 5 minutes. We play every game like the away side and are so negative and are only capable of taking the initiative against sides we can bully. We're incapable of ball retention, passing & movement. Yesterday Ojo & Wilson were totally wasted, as is Bacuna playing at full back. Why the insistence on width.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Former Labour leader
As a coach and manager. Cooper out thought Harris, changing the shape and personnel to negate Cardiff's only real tactic which is to get the ball forward as quickly as possible. Harris failed to alter the personnel during the game to combat Swansea's superiority. Some managers would have made changes before half time when they could see things were not working.
Harris was also at fault in not changing the players either for this game, or more importantly imo, the Stoke game.
We will be ok this season, but I dont want Harris to be given money to spend in January as I do not see his long term future here.
Blakey bangs on about identity. I think we have identity, a big strong physical side which is difficult to play against and scores many of its goals from set pieces. The problem is that we do not have a manager who can adjust tactically when the need arises.
Add "or players" in your last sentence after the word "manager" and I'd agree with it.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Harris played the same side in 5 games back-to-back despite Nelson and Vaulks in particular looking off the pace against Stoke. Then, knowing we have have a game Wednesday, a weeks break and then 3 games in 8 days, he kept on key players yesterday for another 90 minutes even though the game had realistically gone from Ralls red card on 67 minutes. I think that's a case of making a mistake and then doubling down on it which does show his naivety as a manager, and potentially limitations of our squad as well.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
If you turn the game into a scrap, we'll come out on top.
If we get on top early, we'll come out on top.
If you keep the ball and score early, we'll end up chasing shadows.
We've beaten 4 good sides recently but we couldn't get near Swansea today. They're a good side, their players are underrated and ours are vastly overrated. They defended ever so well, too. We've got a centre mid at right back and neither centre mid in our team can pass. Ralls in the right team could be very effective however, as we have seen.
Exactly. Since the defeat at Coventry, Harris has changed to a system that wins us games if we play well. Before that, we weren't winning games even when the performances were decent. We would probably have won yesterday if we had scored the first goal, but when that didn't happen the result was inevitable.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shute
What I saw was their players thinking two passes ahead and the 3rd man moving into space. Our lot were taking each pass like it was an isolated single intention.
We seem to ask our players to basically stick to their positions and not lose shape. Don't get me wrong, it does work in certain situations, but not yesterday.
We couldn't get a tackle in and Swansea broke up our promising moves with tactical fouls. Man City do it all the time.
I agree with this.
Those teams that you mention. seem to be a pass ahead or working to a flexible plan and comfortable in possession, whereas our players seem to pass it to each other and once they get the ball think ‘what am I going to do with it now?’
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hilts
Yes Ralls is miles better than Fulton and Korey Smith.
In general I think many Cardiff fans over rate Ralls
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Former Labour leader
I think that's a big shout, Eric, saying Swansea have better players. Evidence please.
The evidence was before our ready eyes. We can’t pass, have no movement and all we rely on is hit and hope.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobby Dandruff
I agree with this.
Those teams that you mention. seem to be a pass ahead or working to a flexible plan and comfortable in possession, whereas our players seem to pass it to each other and once they get the ball think ‘what am I going to do with it now?’
Perhaps we need to get some new players, instead of constantly complaining that Harris is unable to fit square pegs in round holes.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DubaiDai
In general I think many Cardiff fans over rate Ralls
Couldn't agree more. There is a blind spot when it comes to Ralls, he works hard but is very limited. Probably the player who frustrates me most and has done for a very long time (slightly ahead of Bennett). I had a feeling he was going to get sent off when he was on a booking, got a habit of putting in stupid tackles.
When are we going to buy some midfielders who can play football as well as run around a lot? Why didn't we get a good right back in the summer? Where is the more mobile CB who is comfortable on the ball? Where is the next generation putting the 1st team under pressure for places in the side? Why is Harry Wilson made to look isolated and ineffective on a football pitch?
This is not a reaction from just to losing to the JBs, but losing so easily in a local derby does bring to the fore all the issues we have been pretty well aware of for ages.
I was shocked how easy it was for the Jacks yesterday, stroll in the park at times. Even our world famous 'Set PiecesTM' were pants. If that is our main threat then at least make every single opportunity count. Tactically outgunned yesterday but let's face it, not that difficult.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobby Dandruff
‘4 good sides’? Did you watch any of the games?
Stoke were absolutely rubbish and Luton and Huddersfield little better.
Swansea are a good side (well they pass and move anyway) and so are Bournemouth.
We on the other hand are absolutely dreadful.
That cannot have escaped even your attention? (I’m assuming that you saw the game today and so were able to compare and contrast the two teams?)
Here we go. A total inability to accept that in the previous four games Harris got the team selection, tactics, substitutions right (12 points, 10 goals scored, one goal conceded) and then you go on to denigrate the four wins by saying the opposition was rubbish (whilst totally forgetting that we also beat Watford, one of the strongest sides in the division). We got it wrong yesterday and played poorly, which played into your hands as a constant Harris and City hater. No doubt you are eagerly awaiting the next defeat. I really don't understand what you get out of your constant criticism. You obviously don’t enjoy following City but you obviously enjoy moaning, as you appear have made it into something of an art form. PS. We drew with Bournemouth by the way, so by your logic they cant be that good.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
I’m pretty sure if he’s rotated or changed things and we’d lost he’d have been been accused of tampering with a winning formula and a confident team.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
The gym also showed our players limitations, we will games though as we're better than most outside of the top 6 , they look a solid 6 .
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
It's the limitations of the club that have showed up, the manager is just a product of others who don't really know what they're doing. We're in pretty good company, Forest, Derby etc.
The best thing that ever happened to Swansea was that they nearly went out of the league, almost went Bankrupt a couple of times as well, they were forced into a situation where they didn't have a great deal to lose, instead of repairing what they had, they decided on a full gut. It wasn't a difficult decision for them considering the position they were in.
Since then, they've helped to nurture Martinez, the manager of the number 1 ranked team on earth, Rodgers, a top 6 premier league manager. Brought in Laudrup who suited and actually enhanced every aspect of their playing style and now Cooper, a shrewd appointment given their financial situation as Cooper knows youth, which was the way Swansea were going to have to go in order to progress.
On the occasion they've ****ed up, Bradley and Monk, whoever else has come in has had a relatively easy transition in getting back to a style of play that suits them, because the club is designed from top to bottom to produce players who are comfortable on the ball and understand shape, movement etc.
We've bungled along, picking up individuals, whether that's on the playing staff or managerial team, there is no 'fit' at our club, it's always been a reaction based on what was happening at the time, not what a player could add to the whole set up, because there isn't one.
If we are to progress, not play in fear like we do against outfits like Swansea, Bournemouth etc,then we need a full gut out. I don't really blame Harris, he was brought in to replicate a manager in warnock who hasn't left any form of legacy at any club that he has ever been at. The football is pretty shit, the players we have aren't comfortable in possession, we are easy to set up against (for possession based teams) Unless there's some kind of revolution then i can't see us making real progress.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Agree with the majority of that article Bob.
Since Jones has left I've enjoyed 'moments' in games watching the city. Particularly in recent history, the Camarasa goal away at Leicester, the odd bit of magic from Whitts or Tomlin spring to mind. But I couldn't tell you the last time I actually enjoyed watching a full 90 minute city performance, the style of play since DJ has left has been absolutely awful.
Granted we were hit and miss under Jones, but when we were on song we could absolutely steam roll teams playing fantastic football. If todays side was on song, what would that look like? A few more corners? Some more freekicks? Even more aimless long balls up to the big man to try and flick on?
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I don't think Cooper out-thought Harris, he just had better players at his disposal and a way of playing that generally causes us problems. Harris was too slow with his substitutions, but today was one of those days where, collectively as a club, we were second best by a distance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
It's the limitations of the club that have showed up, the manager is just a product of others who don't really know what they're doing. We're in pretty good company, Forest, Derby etc.
The best thing that ever happened to Swansea was that they nearly went out of the league, almost went Bankrupt a couple of times as well, they were forced into a situation where they didn't have a great deal to lose, instead of repairing what they had, they decided on a full gut. It wasn't a difficult decision for them considering the position they were in.
Since then, they've helped to nurture Martinez, the manager of the number 1 ranked team on earth, Rodgers, a top 6 premier league manager. Brought in Laudrup who suited and actually enhanced every aspect of their playing style and now Cooper, a shrewd appointment given their financial situation as Cooper knows youth, which was the way Swansea were going to have to go in order to progress.
On the occasion they've ****ed up, Bradley and Monk, whoever else has come in has had a relatively easy transition in getting back to a style of play that suits them, because the club is designed from top to bottom to produce players who are comfortable on the ball and understand shape, movement etc.
We've bungled along, picking up individuals, whether that's on the playing staff or managerial team, there is no 'fit' at our club, it's always been a reaction based on what was happening at the time, not what a player could add to the whole set up, because there isn't one.
If we are to progress, not play in fear like we do against outfits like Swansea, Bournemouth etc,then we need a full gut out. I don't really blame Harris, he was brought in to replicate a manager in warnock who hasn't left any form of legacy at any club that he has ever been at. The football is pretty shit, the players we have aren't comfortable in possession, we are easy to set up against (for possession based teams) Unless there's some kind of revolution then i can't see us making real progress.
I'm not sure that the average 'City' fan wants revolution and I dont think we necessarily need one.
I've been a City fan for more years than I remember and we have never, apart from short spells been a free flowing, footballing side.
Attack minded yes, but tippy tappy no.
I would argue that the type of football best suited to us is being big, strong, direct, attack minded. I dont think there is anything wrong with that. Unfortunately with the present limitations probably only parts of that analogy apply. With the addition of 3 or 4 of the right players and a manager who is capable of harnessing all those 3 things together, we would soon be shooting up the league.
Suddenly I am thinking of Malky Mackay in our Championship winning team. Dont know why. 😀
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Former Labour leader
I'm not sure that the average 'City' fan wants revolution and I dont think we necessarily need one.
I've been a City fan for more years than I remember and we have never, apart from short spells been a free flowing, footballing side.
Attack minded yes, but tippy tappy no.
I would argue that the type of football best suited to us is being big, strong, direct, attack minded. I dont think there is anything wrong with that. Unfortunately with the present limitations probably only parts of that analogy apply. With the addition of 3 or 4 of the right players and a manager who is capable of harnessing all those 3 things together, we would soon be shooting up the league.
Suddenly I am thinking of Malky Mackay in our Championship winning team. Dont know why.
A revolution in football terms doesn't have to be sweeping. Nobody plays tippy tappy anyway, and nobody is expecting free flowing. What should be expected is the ability to keep the ball, look composed in the right areas, not have to take two touches to set yourself up etc. We can bully 80% of this division, no problem. When we come up against teams that can play, are versatile, comfortable in possession and willing to take risks, who also have fantastic shape, we struggle, it's like watching a child running away from a bully, no ability to compete, just doing enough to survive.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Baloo
I’m pretty sure if he’s rotated or changed things and we’d lost he’d have been been accused of tampering with a winning formula and a confident team.
More or less a victim of his (4 game) success. Of course we were awful yesterday and he’s getting stick since the game but what if he’d switched things around, rested a couple, brought a couple in and (most probably) the outcome would have been the same because out of our personnel who would have made a huge difference, what would have been the fans’ reaction then? I reckon Harris would have been crucified for changing the winning formula, what a dilemma when your squad is all much of a muchness with nobody such as Tomlin to come in to spice things up.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I don't think Cooper out-thought Harris, he just had better players at his disposal and a way of playing that generally causes us problems. Harris was too slow with his substitutions, but today was one of those days where, collectively as a club, we were second best by a distance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
A revolution in football terms doesn't have to be sweeping. Nobody plays tippy tappy anyway, and nobody is expecting free flowing. What should be expected is the ability to keep the ball, look composed in the right areas, not have to take two touches to set yourself up etc. We can bully 80% of this division, no problem. When we come up against teams that can play, are versatile, comfortable in possession and willing to take risks, who also have fantastic shape, we struggle, it's like watching a child running away from a bully, no ability to compete, just doing enough to survive.
I shouldn't have used the term 'tippy tappy ' but I was trying to emphasise a point that possession football is not the be all and end all.
I reiterate the point that we are not necessarily that far away from being a team that is not only successful, but pleasing to the casual observer. We need 3/4 of the players who you quite rightly say are comfortable with the ball, coupled with a manager(its not Harris) who can harness these with the talents we already possess.
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Re: The game showed Harris' limitations
Yesterday there was only one side who could play football and it was not us.
Swansea are a very good side,they all knew how to pass and move into space.
We looked like a poor pub side.