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Failed to pass yet again, apparently it was blocked by Walloons.
Depending on your political stance on brexit, this either shows why we are better off out of the eu so we can make our own agreement without bowing down to the pesky Walloons or shows that getting the eu to agree to any terms with us will be a nightmare process and we will suffer as a result.
Our biggest bargaining chip is the significant amount of car manufacturing jobs that rely on British exports. I have a German branch of the family and before the referendum I was at a family event with said branch discussing what was going on in Port Talbot with a cousin of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
He basically told me that there are towns in Germany exactly like Port Talbot where 50% of the town works in one industry and the other 50% work as plumbers etc who rely almost exclusively on the other 50% for work. He was saying that he was hoping for a remain vote here as the ramifications of a Brexit vote would see a lot of these towns go under because Britain is by far the biggest importer of German cars. You must remember that during the run up the election scare stories about Brexit were rife including the line that us Brits would stop buying German cars.
The German government will not want to lose potentially their biggest non EU trading partner. With all due respect to other countries who may leave like Greece we are the United Kingdom, we have far more financial clout than others. This is why we will get a good post Brexit deal, the EU have far too much to lose.
Unfortunately, the eu does not work like that. There may be one or two countries who would want to keep free trade with us at any cost, but it only takes one to stop any deal in its tracks, and there are countries that want to make an example of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
I also doubt that having some additional duties on exporting cars to one market is going to shut down any car plants.
It result in job losses though, something that the German government will be keen to avoid after allowing in half the middle east.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Before you condemn the Walloons you should look at why they object to the treaty. Here's a quote about the objection:Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
"Walloons have concerns about the threat of surging pork and beef imports from Canada and an independent court system to settle disputes between states and foreign investors, which critics say allows multinationals to dictate public policy. "
The second part of the complaint is very worrying. It is a way for globalists to override legitimate objections by a government to the import of certain goods. With regard to the first part of the complaint why should the Walloons want their small farmers put out of business by the import of foods which may have been produced in less animal friendly and less hygienic conditions on massive factory farms?
You can bet your bottom dollar all the trade concessions will be one way. For example, if you are a Walloon and you want to send a second hand car to Canada forget it. Only second hand cars from America and Mexico can be exported to Canada. Good luck if you want to export cheese there. Canadian regulations make it very difficult.
You say trade impositions means no one wins. Yet China makes it very hard to export stuff there but they seem to be doing ok. Lots of exports and not so much imported means they have plenty of spare money to go around buying up capital in silly countries like the UK where there are few barriers to foreigners buying up the place.
Will it though? As it would also mean that any cars made in the UK would be more expensive, so they would be less likely to be sold there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
If a Nissan is suddenly a bit closer in price to a beemer then they will sell more of those.
Also keeps more money in Germany and they get more taxation.
Isn't it mad how wallonia, a region of Belgium, can block an EU deal yet Wales, a country within the UK has no say over the brexit terms. This is the difference in unions, and why for me the EU is far more desirable than the UKQuote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Wales voted to leave the EU, the majority of the Welsh people voted to leave the EU so you're in the minority on that one. Also we will have a say on the Brexit terms, Carwyn was with May today.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31
Oh by the way, ask the Greeks what happens when you go against the will of the EU... it gets forced on you anyway.
Carwyn meets a lot of people. Doesn't mean he gets a say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
So the Canada deal is being passed today is it?
He will have had his say today, they all did. Carwyn is against Brexit though even though the majority of the people he governs want it. I cringe when he and Leanne Wood try and play grievance politics in regards to Brexit, it doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31
Probably not but if the Greek referendum is anything to go by the Walloons will be ignored.
Do you think the PM and her team will listen to what carwyn wants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
No they will listen to what the people of Wales want. Can you stop pretending Wales voted to remain? Get your head out of the sand, the people of Wales want to leave the EU. Carwyn has had a meeting with Mrs May today, he may or may not be listened to but he will certainly be ignored if he continues to pretend Wales voted to remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31
To be fair to Leanne wood, her party has the highest percentage of remain voters of all uk parties. I don't know the stats off the top of my head for labour, I'll find them tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
What are you on about? its easy to claim someone doesn't respect the vote, but it's just empty rhetoric here. Would be better if you argued my points instead of assuming things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
Irrelevant of how Wales voted, we should still get a say. Why shouldn't we?
no its not, it is for the UK Parliament to legislate first. If Parliament was so minded, the legislation would have been enacted by now. If you think the UK is a democracy based on the popular vote then why have we had majority governments who have never had a majority popular vote ergo majority mandate to govern?Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
Irrelevant if it's devolved or not, we are still a country that it will effect. The UK Government should do what's best for each country within the UK, not just what's best for England.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
Remainers defending this as nothing do not see their bias.
They've taken every single bit of bad news, a rise in the price of sugar ffs, currency fluctuations, as closure that the decision to leave was a poor one.
I've gone passed the point of talking about it on social media. People have their views and there is barely anyone neutral enough to talk about both sides.
The referendum was a non-party political affair so why should we get a specifically Tory Brexit? If I was May I would be looking to make Brexit as broad a political consensus as possible (and perhaps she is doing that). But if she does choose to go it completely alone with a Hard Tory Brexit then all of the other parties (plus disgruntled Tory Remainers) will turn every small European-related issue into a battleground. The other benefit of a more consensual approach is tactical. If, as you suggest, we have a purely Tory Brexit (because they happen to be the party in government) then they will take all of the blame if it goes tits up. Of course, if it all goes swimmingly well then they will take all of the credit. But it's a political gamble.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
Yep absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabalphaville
Not all Tories wanted Brexit.
The opposition are already trying to score points from them having "no plan". As if labour would their cards on the table this early.
It is pathetic, the attempt to try to gain votes from a scenario not all Tories wanted.
Membership of the UK union is far more important to rural Wales than the EU.
Then perhaps she should listen to the leaders of each devolved nation? Can see we aren't going to get anywhere here, two opinions unlikely to change. I don't really get why someone wouldn't want wales to have a say. Are there any reasons besides it 'not being constitutional' (i.e it's not a devolved matter)?Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
What the **** do you want then Tommy? Our first minister had a meeting with Mrs May yesterday, what do you think they were talking about? Bake off? What do you want? All countries within the UK will have a say, the funny thing is the regions of England will have less of a say than others parts of the UK because they do not have any devolved leaders.
I want Wales to have a say, how is a meeting with the PM not having a say? How is every person living in Wales above the age of 18 having a vote on whether we stay in the EU not having a say? We all had a say in Wales and the majority backed Brexit, we have had our say. We cannot play grievance politics, what the people of Wales and England want is different to what the people of NI, London and Scotland so we won't be able to please everybody.
what can we buy from Canada, thought it was "dry "
But the Tory party don't own Brexit. Quite a lot of the Tory party didn't even want Brexit.The referendum was non-party political. So why are you so convinced that May and a cabal of her closet supporters should have the right to gather behind closed doors and decide what Brexit should look like for everybody else? Of course she should consult other parties and listen to what they have to say and that's what she is doing (or so it appears). And of course the House of Commons should have a right to vote on the basic terms of Brexit before Article 50 is invoked. If she unilaterally attempts to impose a Hard Brexit Tory plan on the country she is asking for trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
Yes, the Tories are in power and it is their job to manage Brexit not to impose the Brexit of their choice. May wants a Hard Brexit (Oooooooh!) and has said that she doesn't want a Commons vote on an exit from the single market before March ( https://www.theguardian.com/politics...le-market-exit ). In other words she wants to set the terms for Brexit herself. Little wonder that all the other parties (and big business) are making political capital out of it. I don't understand why May just doesn't call an early GE election, stand on a platform of Hard Brexit and get a proper mandate that way. She would win hands down given the current state of the polls. At the moment she is being portrayed as a former Remainer with no electoral mandate from the people doing whatever she wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
Tommy thinks that each part of the UK's needs should be considered in the brexit negotiations. I have no faith whatsoever that they will be met by such an English/London-centric party leading the negotiations.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
Out it this way, when have we ever been listened to? Continuously discarded as if we're worthless. I hope one day we stand up for ourselves, although I'm not too optimistic
Carwyn Jones and the other devolved leaders had a meeting with Mrs May this week, like I asked you earlier, what do you think they were talking about other than Brexit? It's hard to keep everyone happy, the electorate in Wales and the rest of England want something completely different to Scotland, NI and London. Oh and by the way, the Tories have 11 Westminster seats in Wales, the second most behind Labour.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31
What would you like to see happen Tommy? What should Carwyn be seeking for Wales in our Brexit negotiations?
I'd like to see him protect welsh trade. Wales runs a £1.5bn trade surplus with the EU, trading £5.1bn last year. Too important to lose. Have you thought of a reason Wales shouldn't get a say yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
LOL - Twpsyn Tommy at it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31
Where have I said Wales should be ignored? Please show me? Wales have had a massive say in the decision to leave the EU, we all had a vote and the will of the majority of the people is to leave. Wales needs a say as does every other area of the UK but fundamentally there are certain things that are going to piss people off in different areas. Just leaving the EU itself goes against what the people of Scotland, London and NI want.
Our FM met our PM this week, they discussed Brexit. I'm not sure what Carwyn wants out of Brexit but I am sure he will be seeking to keep our trade surplus. The problem he has is that the people he governs voted to leave the EU and it was made clear by the leave campaign that this would mean leaving the single market. Is demands for Wales must be realistic.
I mean, I haven't said anything about Jones' calibre as a politician, just what I'd like him to do...Quote:
Originally Posted by ninianclark
It's almost as if you only read what you want to read, isn't it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948
I realise the problems carwyn faces. But saying his demands need to be 'realistic' shows a lack of ambition to me. Before you've even started negotiations, you've already gone down a notch from the ideal. That's not the way to do it.
You're right, some things that Wales wants will piss others off. But why should I care about that? I want what's best for Wales, not what's best for London or Belfast. When did anyone else decide to give in to what Wales wanted rather than what they wanted?
So no quotes from me about not wanting Wales to have a say in Brexit negotiations? Great. Also I notice you haven't listed Edinburgh among the places you don't care about? Any reason why? I care deeply about the people of London, Belfast and Edinburgh who are being dragged out of the EU against their will and would be raging if it was the other way round but that's democracy and they have to make best of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy31
Carwyns got a very difficult position because he hates the fact that the good people of Wales voted to leave. You still haven't outlined what he's done wrong thus far or given examples as to how Wales have been ignored. When Wales voted to leave we were under no illusions that that meant leaving the single market, Carwyn needs to get his head around that one.
Let's talk ambition for a second though because I believe our leaders in Wales are missing a trick. Ambition for me would be to embrace Brexit. So we have a 1.5bn trade surplus with Europe at the moment? Let's double it. Brexit to me is a new chapter in Wales' story and every knew chapter represents a fantastic opportunity to reinvent ourselves and turn our fortunes around.
Stop talking Brexit down and make the most of it.
I'm looking forward to brexit, but I doubt it's for the same reasons as the majority on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird since 1948