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Come on politicans back May deal
its not great , I honestly don't see Europe giving anyone a better deal, no matter what these "against the deal " politicians say ,they should stop playing selfish politics with such an important issue , some very unfortunate people who don't have the luxury or ease of wealth ,to see them through a no deal .
Shame on politicians for playing games with lives , none of you could negotiate anything very differently from this deal .
Labour could easily be brave , and get this done, if it didn't sniff a selfish reach for and election and power.
( Respect the vote ? be buggered , ironic yes )
People voted for a break, ( I didn't ) parliament doesn't agree ,so disrupts ?? lets not disturb democracy and its rights , however we agree or disagree with its outcome, we are where we are .
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
its not great , I honestly don't see Europe giving anyone a better deal, no matter what these "against the deal " politicians say ,they should stop playing selfish politics with such an important issue , some very unfortunate people who don't have the luxury or ease of wealth ,to see them through a no deal .
Shame on politicians for playing games with lives , none of you could negotiate anything very differently from this deal .
Labour could easily be brave , and get this done, if it didn't sniff a selfish reach for and election and power.
( Respect the vote ? be buggered , ironic yes )
People voted for a break, ( I didn't ) parliament doesn't agree ,so disrupts ?? lets not disturb democracy and its rights , however we agree or disagree with its outcome, we are where we are .
I've yet to come across anyone who voted Brexit who knew the real consequences. And many of those who voted for it are not the type to keep themselves informed on a daily basis of the complexity that is unfolding. I didn't (ansd still don't like) the direction the EU is heading but the average person on the street was not well informed enough to have a sufficient understanding of what they were voting for and for what arrangement they expected at the end of it. That is not to say that an argument for Brexit is not valid but let's be honest and admit that the average person wasn't qualified to really weigh up all the pros and cons, me included. You only have to see the street vox pops on news programmes for people to reveal their incredible ignorance of the concepts and complexities involved. And presumably those who voted for Brexit wanted a hard Brexit as a halfway house didn't seem to be on the menu - so the latter option being promoted by the government is highly ironic. In short, no-one voted for that option.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I've yet to come across anyone who voted Brexit who knew the real consequences. And many of those who voted for it are not the type to keep themselves informed on a daily basis of the complexity that is unfolding. I didn't (ansd still don't like) the direction the EU is heading but the average person on the street was not well informed enough to have a sufficient understanding of what they were voting for and for what arrangement they expected at the end of it. That is not to say that an argument for Brexit is not valid but let's be honest and admit that the average person wasn't qualified to really weigh up all the pros and cons, me included. You only have to see the street vox pops on news programmes for people to reveal their incredible ignorance of the concepts and complexities involved. And presumably those who voted for Brexit wanted a hard Brexit as a halfway house didn't seem to be on the menu - so the latter option being promoted by the government is highly ironic. In short, no-one voted for that option.
What is the option then ,surely a second vote would cause uproar and a generation of people to never vote gain ??
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
What is the option then ,surely a second vote would cause uproar and a generation of people to never vote gain ??
It's not about 'a generation of people' possibly never voting again though - as it's not as if all the older generation voted for Brexit and the all the younger generation voted for Remain. And to proceed on a course of action that no-one voted for is quite perverse.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
It's not about 'a generation of people' possibly never voting again though - as it's not as if all the older generation voted for Brexit and the all the younger generation voted for Remain. And to proceed on a course of action that no-one voted for is quite perverse.
My point is around the reported many millions who don't usually register or vote who actual decided to do so in the EU referendum, hence the reported record 46.5million people who became motivated to vote or register to do so , surely many of those are likely to be lost , if this vote is ignored ,which could backlash actually more on Labour than the other parties ??
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
My point is around the reported many millions who don't usually register or vote who actual decided to do so in the EU referendum, hence the reported record 46.5million people who became motivated to vote or register to do so , surely many of those are likely to be lost , if this vote is ignored ,which could backlash actually more on Labour than the other parties ??
I would prefer our politicians to fight for what they believe in than support something they don't.
May's behaviour has been atrocious in this yet I notice you don't mention it. She is the ultimate game player, we could have known where we stood with regards to her deal before Christmas. She instead decided to use the looming threat of the deadline and no deal to force MPs to support something they disagree with. It doesn't look to have worked and she looks like an idiot now.
The ambiguity of the 2016 version of leave makes the next few months impossible without a clarification from the country. It is that or potentially something Norway-like, which will involve freedom of movement.
I am glad parliament have pushed back versus May because the UK was beginning to look like a banana republic dictatorship.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
My point is around the reported many millions who don't usually register or vote who actual decided to do so in the EU referendum, hence the reported record 46.5million people who became motivated to vote or register to do so , surely many of those are likely to be lost , if this vote is ignored ,which could backlash actually more on Labour than the other parties ??
So about a third of them weren't motivated enough to actually vote in 2016.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
lardy
So about a third of them weren't motivated enough to actually vote in 2016.
Not voting is also a democratic action, otherwise known as abstaining.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
I would prefer our politicians to fight for what they believe in than support something they don't.
May's behaviour has been atrocious in this yet I notice you don't mention it. She is the ultimate game player, we could have known where we stood with regards to her deal before Christmas. She instead decided to use the looming threat of the deadline and no deal to force MPs to support something they disagree with. It doesn't look to have worked and she looks like an idiot now.
The ambiguity of the 2016 version of leave makes the next few months impossible without a clarification from the country. It is that or potentially something Norway-like, which will involve freedom of movement.
I am glad parliament have pushed back versus May because the UK was beginning to look like a banana republic dictatorship.
Let's not forget either that May had a majority large enough to be far more in control of things than she has been since the Conservative party decided we needed an election in 2017 - she was happy enough to see that election being portrayed a solely down to her at the time and she has to accept her share of the responsibility for her party's woeful campaign.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I've yet to come across anyone who voted Brexit who knew the real consequences. And many of those who voted for it are not the type to keep themselves informed on a daily basis of the complexity that is unfolding. I didn't (ansd still don't like) the direction the EU is heading but the average person on the street was not well informed enough to have a sufficient understanding of what they were voting for and for what arrangement they expected at the end of it. That is not to say that an argument for Brexit is not valid but let's be honest and admit that the average person wasn't qualified to really weigh up all the pros and cons, me included. You only have to see the street vox pops on news programmes for people to reveal their incredible ignorance of the concepts and complexities involved. And presumably those who voted for Brexit wanted a hard Brexit as a halfway house didn't seem to be on the menu - so the latter option being promoted by the government is highly ironic. In short, no-one voted for that option.
I agree with you, but I would also say that no one can blame "the man/woman in the street" for not understanding the basics, let alone the nuances, of the issues at stake when the guidance they were receiving from so many politicians from all parties (be they remainers or leavers) was so pathetic during the referendum campaign.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I agree with you, but I would also say that no one can blame "the man/woman in the street" for not understanding the basics, let alone the nuances, of the issues at stake when the guidance they were receiving from so many politicians from all parties (be they remainers or leavers) was so pathetic during the referendum campaign.
I didn't apportion blame as that would have involved not just voters the flaws inherent in democracy, referenda and populism.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I didn't apportion blame as that would have involved not just voters the flaws inherent in democracy, referenda and populism.
insert 'but also'
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I didn't apportion blame as that would have involved not just voters the flaws inherent in democracy, referenda and populism.
Fair point :thumbup:.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Well lots of anti Tory stuff ,what is the solution or plan if they are so useless ?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
Well lots of anti Tory stuff ,what is the solution or plan if they are so useless ?
Perhaps you could clarify of the "lots of anti tory stuff" in this thread
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Veg1960
Perhaps you could clarify of the "lots of anti tory stuff" in this thread
Okay as I see it May is a Tory.
Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.
Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.
It's just political gesturing for personal gain .
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Okay as I see it May is a Tory.
Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.
Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.
It's just political gesturing for personal gain .
That attack on May was not an attack on her as a tory, it was an attack on her as a person.
She is calling any attempt to frustrate the result of a referendum an affront to democracy, while having a history of doing precisely that herself.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Okay as I see it May is a Tory.
Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.
Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.
It's just political gesturing for personal gain .
I think you are missing the point. The reason why many of her own party is rejecting her deal is because it is inconsistent with what many Brexiteers voted for in the first place -as would any other compromise be.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
I would prefer our politicians to fight for what they believe in than support something they don't.
May's behaviour has been atrocious in this yet I notice you don't mention it. She is the ultimate game player, we could have known where we stood with regards to her deal before Christmas. She instead decided to use the looming threat of the deadline and no deal to force MPs to support something they disagree with. It doesn't look to have worked and she looks like an idiot now.
The ambiguity of the 2016 version of leave makes the next few months impossible without a clarification from the country. It is that or potentially something Norway-like, which will involve freedom of movement.
I am glad parliament have pushed back versus May because the UK was beginning to look like a banana republic dictatorship.
I've been eligible to vote since 1979, she for me has been;
a) the most appalling PM during my time
b) is just playing out an agreement with the real rulers to run the clock down
I understand the withdrawal agreement, if that no agreement, the UK crashes out on WTO, but just do not see this happening irrespective whatever the agreement says/implies. Corbyn isn't getting off lightly either, what a spineless opposition leader.
TRUMP / CLINTON
MAY / CORBYN
Mackay/Warnock
What a time to be alive!!!.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Okay as I see it May is a Tory.
Anyway once again where is the depth of argument ,suggestions, proposal that brings to the table a different option that European leaders would agree too.
Besides May , is anyone able to bring forward a proposal that has viable where content and detail that appeals to all parties in the UK , and European leaders of 27 countries.
It's just political gesturing for personal gain .
It's your birthday, no one has bought you a cake so I stick a candle in a turd and bring it round to cheer you up, would you eat it?
The polls are pretty clear, the country doesn't want May's deal. Surely MP's (and our delightful PM) have a duty to reflect upon that and try to find another way, or did the will of the people only matter once?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
It's your birthday, no one has bought you a cake so I stick a candle in a turd and bring it round to cheer you up, would you eat it?
The polls are pretty clear, the country doesn't want May's deal. Surely MP's (and our delightful PM) have a duty to reflect upon that and try to find another way, or did the will of the people only matter once?
I get all that , but who , and how , and what, will deliver a better or alternative deal ,again do you or do you know of anyone with any detail .
It's like ducking groundhog day ,you have to surely offer an alternative.
How do you know its my birthday, you outside my house , if so i'm off out there now
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I get all that , but who , and how , and what, will deliver a better or alternative deal ,again do you or do you know of anyone with any detail .
It's like ducking groundhog day ,you have to surely offer an alternative.
How do you know its my birthday, you outside my house , if so i'm off out there now
You are completely missing the point. The polls suggest that the country would rather no deal or remain than go through with this deal.
There are a few viable alternatives if May's red lines are taken out of the equation, all are worse than remaining so it certainly isn't a remainers job to describe the alternative. None offer the unicorns promised during the campaign.
Brexiteers don't want it, remainers don't want it, doesn't look like parliament doesn't want it. Only May, a minority of the house and 20% of the country want this deal so why do it?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Naff off may , you tried to destroy the Labour party when the polls were riding high , now sod off
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
You are completely missing the point. The polls suggest that the country would rather no deal or remain than go through with this deal.
There are a few viable alternatives if May's red lines are taken out of the equation, all are worse than remaining so it certainly isn't a remainers job to describe the alternative. None offer the unicorns promised during the campaign.
Brexiteers don't want it, remainers don't want it, doesn't look like parliament doesn't want it. Only May, a minority of the house and 20% of the country want this deal so why do it?
I get all that ,however I truly believe whoever takes this on its going to run into 27 member states not likely to give us what we want ,I'm sure for example staying in the customer union and ,free movement is a red line if you take Turkey for example they have a second rate customs union ,it doesn't stop or solve border controls though like NI , free movement is also a redline for a lot of people not just the current lady ??
I just red these anti May conversations and I get it its not a great deal ,but where is the other detail of someone's else's deal ?
Simply shouting : "stand down or away" , "let someone else negotiate this deal " , "we need a general election" , "we need a second referendum" is so easy and simple , for the last time I simply want to see or here an alternative details proposition, surely a group of ell meaning/caring MP's could pull one together and slap it in front of May and publish it in the media , my bet is they scared it would receive the same vitriol and criticism .
Your bright enough to know they would rather just fire vitriol and criticism, as did the leave campaign , so they can meet their narrow political agenda.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I get all that ,however I truly believe whoever takes this on its going to run into 27 member states not likely to give us what we want ,I'm sure for example staying in the customer union and ,free movement is a red line if you take Turkey for example they have a second rate customs union ,it doesn't stop or solve border controls though like NI , free movement is also a redline for a lot of people not just the current lady ??
I just red these anti May conversations and I get it its not a great deal ,but where is the other detail of someone's else's deal ?
Simply shouting : "stand down or away" , "let someone else negotiate this deal " , "we need a general election" , "we need a second referendum" is so easy and simple , for the last time I simply want to see or here an alternative details proposition, surely a group of ell meaning/caring MP's could pull one together and slap it in front of May and publish it in the media , my bet is they scared it would receive the same vitriol and criticism .
Your bright enough to know they would rather just fire vitriol and criticism, as did the leave campaign , so they can meet their narrow political agenda.
There are adult politicians trying to identify outcomes that will command a majority of the democratically elected parliament. It seems like others wish to follow their narrow political agenda and reject this path. From the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn reporting on the outcome of May's Cabinet meeting this morning.
I hear the PM just told Cabinet she will push on with her Brexit deal, no matter the size of tonight's defeat, as "it’s the only option". A big push from Rudd/Clark/Gauke/Perry to open talks with moderate Labour MPs, but rejected by Hunt/Javid/Fox/Lewis/Truss/Williamson. Also: Greg Clark pushed the PM hard to formally rule out No Deal if the vote is lost, citing the “devastating” effect it would have on the car industry. She gave no firm reply. Most striking contribution in Cabinet came from Brandon Lewis, someone in the room tells me. Tory chairman came down very hard on opening talks with Labour: “The party wouldn’t wear it,” he said.
A room full of people running the government putting Party before country led by someone obstinately pushing something that barely half of one political party in the UK believes in! Still I am sure you will be able to find someone other than the government of the day to blame for this shambles!
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
There are adult politicians trying to identify outcomes that will command a majority of the democratically elected parliament. It seems like others wish to follow their narrow political agenda and reject this path. From the Sun's Tom Newton Dunn reporting on the outcome of May's Cabinet meeting this morning.
I hear the PM just told Cabinet she will push on with her Brexit deal, no matter the size of tonight's defeat, as "it’s the only option". A big push from Rudd/Clark/Gauke/Perry to open talks with moderate Labour MPs, but rejected by Hunt/Javid/Fox/Lewis/Truss/Williamson. Also: Greg Clark pushed the PM hard to formally rule out No Deal if the vote is lost, citing the “devastating” effect it would have on the car industry. She gave no firm reply. Most striking contribution in Cabinet came from Brandon Lewis, someone in the room tells me. Tory chairman came down very hard on opening talks with Labour: “The party wouldn’t wear it,” he said.
A room full of people running the government putting Party before country led by someone obstinately pushing something that barely half of one political party in the UK believes in! Still I am sure you will be able to find someone other than the government of the day to blame for this shambles!
You are forgetting the prime mover in all this 27 European Countries who have no reason to provide us with a lovely deal ,whatever your political allegiances are ,why would they do it , whilst they can squeeze the pips and get us to reverse this decision they will ,they have done on three separate occasions .
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
You are forgetting the prime mover in all this 27 European Countries who have no reason to provide us with a lovely deal ,whatever your political allegiances are ,why would they do it , whilst they can squeeze the pips and get us to reverse this decision they will ,they have done on three separate occasions .
No idea what you mean by the EU member states being the prime movers in this, but then that won't be the first time I have failed to grasp the point you were making. For what it is worth I think a number of member states are getting pretty ambivalent about the UK remaining part of the EU. What is obvious is that the EU will not negotiate a future trade deal that gives the UK a competitive advantage, quite the opposite. Why would they?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
She only lost by 230 votes. Can we have another vote, just to make certain it's what the MP's really wanted?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
She only lost by 230 votes, can we have a 2nd vote?
Can we have 2 years + to debate it ?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
She only lost by 230 votes. Can we have another vote, just to make certain it's what the MP's really wanted?
You might be in luck
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Nice sterling earner tonight .
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
Nice sterling earner tonight .
The BBC website states "Sterling rose 0.1% to $1.289 after declines of more than 1% earlier in the day."
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
The BBC website states "Sterling rose 0.1% to $1.289 after declines of more than 1% earlier in the day."
Yes,indeed, nice time for Forex trading ,best to follow these trends than daft political comments , and its far more rewarding .
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
I honestly don't see Europe giving anyone a better deal
They aren't the ones giving us a deal. We are the ones leaving, so we need to be the ones putting forward the proposals and it's up to the EU to say what can and can't be done.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
What a fecking mess, we have no hope with any of those tossers in charge
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
As one of the clever beans on the ccmb politics forum likes to tell us, this is all part of Mays plan to stop brexit. The sacrifices she'll make, eh?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
I've been looking at the manifestos of the official leave campaign and those of leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol.
All of them propose to have some sort of deal with the EU. Those who reckon that no-deal is really what leave voters voted for are talking bollocks, because no-deal was never proposed. Varying degrees of deal were.
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I've been looking at the manifestos of the official leave campaign and those of leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol.
All of them propose to have some sort of deal with the EU. Those who reckon that no-deal is really what leave voters voted for are talking bollocks, because no-deal was never proposed. Varying degrees of deal were.
Hence the rise in the pound tonight ,as the prospect of no deal was kicked into the long grass,nothing has changed really, were just going to go around and around until someone falls off or everyone dies of boredom.
Or perhaps this was the long game anyway, get right up to the end of March , have this huge majority of MP's vote against this agreement , and see if Europe blinks, who knows ,well the money traders do I guess ?
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Re: Come on politicans back May deal
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I've been looking at the manifestos of the official leave campaign and those of leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol.
All of them propose to have some sort of deal with the EU. Those who reckon that no-deal is really what leave voters voted for are talking bollocks, because no-deal was never proposed. Varying degrees of deal were.
The question on the ballot paper was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" though - and it wasn't nuanced by any particular political party's spin on it.
It wasn't a general election so the electorate were not voting for a party manifesto.