Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

So why not make it compulsory that any player that has compensation payout automatically has a 50% sell on clause?

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1. As Nobodys Rep says it probably needs to be voted on to bring in suhc a dramatic change to the rules and the big clubs who are currently taking advantage of the system have the most power and will be looking out for their own interests.

2. As the boys in question are effectively still children I would imagine there would be some employment contract hurdles to overcome. You cant just hold a childs registration agaisnt their will in the same way you cant hold onto an adult players registration ie the Bosman rule.

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

Where would Isaak fit in this current system?

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He probably wouldnt as Bulut likes someone bigger upfront as the lone striker but that wasnt the question I was asked.

An 8 month injury layoff for a 15-year old doesn't sound good, I'd take the money.

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Originally Posted by Nobody's Rep

Or not allow youngsters to move until they are at the same age we can offer them a professional contract so they have a choice ??? Or does that not work either

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We did offer him a contract but I think majority of youngsters given the choice would choose Man City over Cardiff City. Especially when things like offering to look after their families comes into the equation which is what happned with Matondo.

Unless someone has a certain plan then I think most players are going to be swayed by the bigger clus. there are the obvious exceptions of course. Evan Ferguson choose Brighton over the bigger clubs because he felt it would be better for his long term career path but hes obviously got great faith in his abilityh that hes already looking at brighton as a stepping stone.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

We did offer him a contract but I think majority of youngsters given the choice would choose Man City over Cardiff City. Especially when things like offering to look after their families comes into the equation which is what happned with Matondo.

Unless someone has a certain plan then I think most players are going to be swayed by the bigger clus. there are the obvious exceptions of course. Evan Ferguson choose Brighton over the bigger clubs because he felt it would be better for his long term career path but hes obviously got great faith in his abilityh that hes already looking at brighton as a stepping stone.

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Fair enough - maybe the age at which they can be poached needs to change so they are nearer an age which they could legitimately see a pathway to the first team ??

But again as mentioned any rule change will need to be agreed by the poachers and that aint going to happen 🤔

Timeo is a well regarded left winger
This time of year clubs are making decisions on who to offer scholarships to and in regards to the second year scholars first year pro deals
Unfortunately trying to keep the lid on exciting young players coming through is extremely difficult
Coaches and players talk
That’s the business we’re in 😕

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

Timeo is a well regarded left winger
This time of year clubs are making decisions on who to offer scholarships to and in regards to the second year scholars first year pro deals
Unfortunately trying to keep the lid on exciting young players coming through is extremely difficult
Coaches and players talk
That’s the business we’re in 😕

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Sadly this is what it is now, Business.

Few points from the above discussion

Bosman ruling: Brilliant idea, power to the worker, you don't want to lose somebody, offer them a longer contract. This is everything about protecting workers and should be applauded.

Academy: Cardiff City has social responsibility to offer opportunities to young people in the area to receive a higher level of coaching and other life skills that come with team sports and in a professional environment (Lucy ward talks a lot about this in academies, its not just football). How the club see that and measure viability is up to them, it wouldn't be hard. However, the removal of an academy because it doesn't produce financial gains or 1st team players is irrelevant, Cardiff City (all clubs) have that social responsibility!

Sell on fees: Don't know the numbers but "development" fee's are paid throughout a career, if this lad ends up being a Nathan Blake and moving every year for decent money Cardiff would get a small percent of that every time regardless.

https://priceoffootball.com/ is a good place for all these debates and more detailed factual information, as some of mine might not be :-) .

Thanks for listening to my TED Talk

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Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

Agree with this.

The rules are the rules and they are a joke but you can't blame the kid going to Man City after seeing their setup.

What we need to do is provide a better offering. The only offering we can do is play these kids in first team football. Play them or take the £250k (which may be a lot more than if they never make it)

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Seems the new route into football, go to Man City go out on loan to a championship or league one team, get sold for a few million, maybe work your way back up to a lower level premier team.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Probably in hindsight for his own career it woukd have been better if hed made the move. However, hes a local lad, whos family are City supporters, hes been with the club since hes 7 or 8, and it was probably his dream to play for City. Hed broken into the team the last year or so and along with Colwill it finally looked they were the two from the academy most likley to become regulars for the first team. Last season obviusly didnt play out as planned in the end for one reason or other, i dont hink injuries helped and then hes been frozen out by Bulut without being given much of a chance pre-season.

From what I hear and the snippets of interviews ive seen hes absolutely loving it out in Belgium. Will we ever see him a City shirt again? I have my doubts. Even if Bulut has a change of heart will Davies want to come back and play a bit part now hes getting regular first team action and played in his preffered position.

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Cheers for that. It's great that he's loving Belgium. I think from just a non-football point of view, it's great he's getting that life experience too.

Re. him not fitting into a Bulut team. Yeah. Agree. I think there are a few Championship clubs that he'd get first-team football with. Same for Colwill (I know he's getting it now but I still think there's been a lot of wasted years for both players with us). We don't seem to appreciate them as much as we should early on and by the time we do get them playing, it never feels right. I know I'm being subjective and I can't really back it up other than it's just a feeling.

Re. some of the other things going on in this thread (which is a really good discussion and very interesting - I'm learning a lot) this popped into my inbox as I was reading your answers and the rest of the poster's comments. It seems a far cry from Man City looking after players the way they do and must be a factor in decision-making. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but isn't this kind of like the George Best days or am I missing something?

https://newsletter.cardiffcityfc.co....hALi_-IvDMfp5A

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Quick google says he joined us from an under 10's team in Bristol and hes an inner city kid.

Good luck to the boy, could be life changing for him and his family. Not his fault the rules are a joke, wherby the big clubs can just come and take your best talent for 250k and sell them on for millions. Lets hope a decent sell on fee, if any, has been agreed so we dont get stung like when they took Rabbi Matondo.

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I appreciate how it works, it works in our favour too as we got Joe Ralls at 16 didn't we!

I just think it's unfair, even though we can use the same system. Man City have got him because they "don't have enough options at that age group in his position" or words to that effect. So they're basically stockpiling and they'll cast 99 percent of them off, although if he's any good he's obviously in a better place to develop so you can see why they'd be sold on it.

Does anyone know if it's just that fee you get or do they include a sell on percentage? I have a feeling these deals are geared more towards the big team in the deal..

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Originally Posted by Nobody's Rep

Is it possible to work out an average cost of developing players to a certain age and that being the baseline figure the big boys have to pay - that would be fairer system

Or not allow youngsters to move until they are at the same age we can offer them a professional contract so they have a choice ??? Or does that not work either

It seems like in most things in life it is geared to the rich to keep getting richer and have the power over the small guy

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I'm sitting back and letting JR and others answer these questions. It's great. It's like our very own phone in Q&A session. I don't have enough knowledge but I do know how to ask questions! Good football discussion this. There's a lot of tie -in with other threads and subjects too. Like Reading's situation. I can only speak for myself, but I quite often don't appreciate the complexities of these systems.

Football is such a unique employment situation. Employees are seen much more as being owned and honed by their first (or subsequent employer).

Imagine a mechanic serving an apprenticeship with a back street garage then progressing later to make it big, working his way up with bigger concerns and eventually owning a string of successful garages. Would we think that the back street garage who kicked him off in the game should receive a massive backhander for his introduction into the game? More or less the same situation, or is it?

I think the ‘rearing’ club should receive decent ongoing compensation but I’m all for fairness in football whereas the ‘suits’ at every level of the game see it as just another cut throat business. And the back street garage brings on another potentially top mechanic…….

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Football is such a unique employment situation. Employees are seen much more as being owned and honed by their first (or subsequent employer).

Imagine a mechanic serving an apprenticeship with a back street garage then progressing later to make it big, working his way up with bigger concerns and eventually owning a string of successful garages. Would we think that the back street garage who kicked him off in the game should receive a massive backhander for his introduction into the game? More or less the same situation, or is it?

I think the ‘rearing’ club should receive decent ongoing compensation but I’m all for fairness in football whereas the ‘suits’ at every level of the game see it as just another cut throat business. And the back street garage brings on another potentially top mechanic…….

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I don't think someone progressing in life and chosing to gradually move up is the same thing, there aren't bigger garages hovering over the smaller garages to clear out any potential "stars"

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Originally Posted by splott parker

Football is such a unique employment situation. Employees are seen much more as being owned and honed by their first (or subsequent employer).

Imagine a mechanic serving an apprenticeship with a back street garage then progressing later to make it big, working his way up with bigger concerns and eventually owning a string of successful garages. Would we think that the back street garage who kicked him off in the game should receive a massive backhander for his introduction into the game? More or less the same situation, or is it?

I think the ‘rearing’ club should receive decent ongoing compensation but I’m all for fairness in football whereas the ‘suits’ at every level of the game see it as just another cut throat business. And the back street garage brings on another potentially top mechanic…….

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Maybe a better simile is NHS Dentist, who f*ck off to the private sector as soon as they can. Football clubs do receive compensation, i think 5% of all future transfer fee's are dished out to the developing clubs, this is a FIFA rule. It's not decent but its better than sweet FA (pun intended)

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

There is that school of thought, but your recruitment needs to be a lot better than ours has been to make it viable. Brentford got rid of their academy and concentrated on recruitment but they had some of the best of recruitment and statisticians working for them with their rise up the leagues.

Also, our location probably doesnt help us in that respect. Brentford could cherry pick some of the best talent from those released by the bigger London clubs. Chris Mepham was with Chelsea as a youngster, got released and Brentford picked him up.

Eze got released by acadmeys of several clubs around the London area - Arsenal, Fulham, Reading, Milwall - before QPR signed him at 18 and sold to Palace for 17m 4 years later.

Im sure if it was that simple most club owners would be doing it rather than running an expensive academy.

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Seems Brentford would have been breaking Premier League rules by continting not to have an Academy.

https://www.brentfordfc.com/en/news/...o-open-academy

Huddersfield closed their Academy a few years back and have restructured in a similar way to Brentford - I like the idea of using the calendar year, rather than the academic one, for categorising their age group teams.

https://www.htafc.com/academy/

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Cheers for that. It's great that he's loving Belgium. I think from just a non-football point of view, it's great he's getting that life experience too.

Re. him not fitting into a Bulut team. Yeah. Agree. I think there are a few Championship clubs that he'd get first-team football with. Same for Colwill (I know he's getting it now but I still think there's been a lot of wasted years for both players with us). We don't seem to appreciate them as much as we should early on and by the time we do get them playing, it never feels right. I know I'm being subjective and I can't really back it up other than it's just a feeling.

Re. some of the other things going on in this thread (which is a really good discussion and very interesting - I'm learning a lot) this popped into my inbox as I was reading your answers and the rest of the poster's comments. It seems a far cry from Man City looking after players the way they do and must be a factor in decision-making. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but isn't this kind of like the George Best days or am I missing something?

https://newsletter.cardiffcityfc.co....hALi_-IvDMfp5A

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I’ve not seen a huge amount of Davies, I really thought he was going to be the next big thing but then he had a few injuries I think and didn’t really push on.

Why could he not fit into the Grant role though under Bulut?

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Originally Posted by 2b2bdoo

I’ve not seen a huge amount of Davies, I really thought he was going to be the next big thing but then he had a few injuries I think and didn’t really push on.

Why could he not fit into the Grant role though under Bulut?

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I'll be honest and say I'm one of the people that no longer understand Bulut so I can't answer that. As JR mentioned, his injury changed things. I do know that at one point I was very excited to see him playing and always felt he was the 'the one'. I can't back it up with any analyses but I just don't see him as a Bulut player; which makes sense as neither does Bulut! Another 'feeling' for me would be that he's better off away from Cardiff right now. But I'm one of the miserable fans who hasn't been happy with the club or our football for a while so don't listen to me!

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I like the idea of using the calendar year, rather than the academic one, for categorising their age group teams.

https://www.htafc.com/academy/

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That's interesting. I saw some research a while back on ice hockey teams in Canada missing out on talent because they reject the younger, smaller kids in each age group.
Does switching to calendar rather than school years mean you just focus on those with January to April birthdays instead of "August to December"? (Surely they mean September to December).

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Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

That's interesting. I saw some research a while back on ice hockey teams in Canada missing out on talent because they reject the younger, smaller kids in each age group.
Does switching to calendar rather than school years mean you just focus on those with January to April birthdays instead of "August to December"? (Surely they mean September to December).

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It's called the relative age effect.

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Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

That's interesting. I saw some research a while back on ice hockey teams in Canada missing out on talent because they reject the younger, smaller kids in each age group.
Does switching to calendar rather than school years mean you just focus on those with January to April birthdays instead of "August to December"? (Surely they mean September to December).

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You’d think so wouldn’t you.i was thinking of this study when I suggested using the calendar year, but I suppose you’re going to run into the same problem however you do it.

https://www.casino.co.uk/footballers-birthdays/

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You’d think so wouldn’t you.i was thinking of this study when I suggested using the calendar year, but I suppose you’re going to run into the same problem however you do it.

https://www.casino.co.uk/footballers-birthdays/

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That's really interesting but I can't help feeling there'll now be some placebo effect for the poor players reading that who are born in the second half of the year. Like 'What's the point?!' :ohwell:

As Isaak Davies came up here I'll put this article up in case anyone hasn't seen it. Maybe him and Bulut are just saying the right things but it all seems very positive to me. Tsunoda gets a (positive) mention too.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...firms-28778607

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You’d think so wouldn’t you.i was thinking of this study when I suggested using the calendar year, but I suppose you’re going to run into the same problem however you do it.

https://www.casino.co.uk/footballers-birthdays/

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Malcolm Gladwell, that's the chap. I guess the trick is to be aware of it and look for talented kids even if they're smaller and not so confident. Not easy though.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

I'll be honest and say I'm one of the people that no longer understand Bulut so I can't answer that. As JR mentioned, his injury changed things. I do know that at one point I was very excited to see him playing and always felt he was the 'the one'. I can't back it up with any analyses but I just don't see him as a Bulut player; which makes sense as neither does Bulut! Another 'feeling' for me would be that he's better off away from Cardiff right now. But I'm one of the miserable fans who hasn't been happy with the club or our football for a while so don't listen to me!

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Not sure I totally agree, I think Davies had a poor stop start season last year. I think a loan away was spot on for him, he needed games. If he’s good enough I think he can fill the Grant role. I think it’s a bit harsh to neither does Bulut, he only had a pre-season with him and alike King they need games.

I hope both can come back next season, if up to it.

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Originally Posted by 2b2bdoo

Not sure I totally agree, I think Davies had a poor stop start season last year. I think a loan away was spot on for him, he needed games. If he’s good enough I think he can fill the Grant role. I think it’s a bit harsh to neither does Bulut, he only had a pre-season with him and alike King they need games.

I hope both can come back next season, if up to it.

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pretty sure if bulut is with us next season davies will be too