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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rudy gestede
The bad deal isn’t from the EU the bad deal is from us because we have imposed our own red lines.
The EU are happy for us to have a good deal they just have to protect their current member states like Ireland. Our current red lines would break the GFA and who knows what that could cause.
The EU also have to protect their citizens who currently live in the U.K. which the red lines don’t protect.
The bad deal is nothing to do with the EU, the bad deal is because of the U.K..
The red lies are a bit of a mish mash on both sides.
At the end of the day, The crux of the problem is, the EU has allowed itself to grow and grow, without putting in place, a plausible leave plan, for any member that wants to leave.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
No they’re not the red lines are completely put in place by the U.K.
The thing only thing the EU won’t compromise is there needs to be a border somewhere between the U.K. and the EU (Ireland) and even would allow the backstop to negate this until a proper solution could be agreed.
There’s a plausible plan to leave you submit articles 50 after planning what you want and then try and negotiate with the EU.
The U.K. submitted article 50 before it had even decided if it wanted access to the single market. Then wasted 2 years doing nothing, asked for an extension and set in place ridiculous red lines. The eu agreed a deal with the U.K. but then we still weren’t happy with it because we’d need a hard border somewhere between us an EU countries.
What red lines do you think the EU have put in place?
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rudy gestede
No they’re not the red lines are completely put in place by the U.K.
The thing only thing the EU won’t compromise is there needs to be a border somewhere between the U.K. and the EU (Ireland) and even would allow the backstop to negate this until a proper solution could be agreed.
There’s a plausible plan to leave you submit articles 50 after planning what you want and then try and negotiate with the EU.
The U.K. submitted article 50 before it had even decided if it wanted access to the single market. Then wasted 2 years doing nothing, asked for an extension and set in place ridiculous red lines. The eu agreed a deal with the U.K. but then we still weren’t happy with it because we’d need a hard border somewhere between us an EU countries.
What red lines do you think the EU have put in place?
How about the “4 freedoms” Goods,Capital, services and labour? Tying them all up under one banner is always gonna create problems for a member wanting to opt out.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
What in have the EU done with regards to those to make it difficult to leave?
You do realise the U.K. were one of the biggest inputs to how the EU is right? The EU isn’t some huge autonomous being, the U.K. was one of the main players in how the EU is. We weren’t forced or coerced into it.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rudy gestede
What in have the EU done with regards to those to make it difficult to leave?
You do realise the U.K. were one of the biggest inputs to how the EU is right? The EU isn’t some huge autonomous being, the U.K. was one of the main players in how the EU is. We weren’t forced or coerced into it.
We never voted to go into it either.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
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Originally Posted by
William Treseder
We never voted to go into it either.
And we should never had a referendum to vote ourselves out. We elect MPs to make crucial decisions like this and thank God we’ve still got a few having a go at sorting out this whole sorry mess. The referendum was a hell of a cop out for parliament, they can always fall back on the line ‘Well you voted for it’. But, talking to a few leavers now they didn’t realise that they were voting for this fiasco, I’m sure some of them thought we’d be out at midnight that night.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
We never voted to go into it either.
We voted to join it as a trading bloc and the U.K. were instrumental to making it more than that.
There’s a reason people who fought in the war were More likely to vote remain and that’s because they’ve seen the good it’s done since the Second World War at maintaining peace.
Look at the good it’s done for countries like Poland and Czechia too.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
splott parker
And we should never had a referendum to vote ourselves out. We elect MPs to make crucial decisions like this and thank God we’ve still got a few having a go at sorting out this whole sorry mess. The referendum was a hell of a cop out for parliament, they can always fall back on the line ‘Well you voted for it’. But, talking to a few leavers now they didn’t realise that they were voting for this fiasco, I’m sure some of them thought we’d be out at midnight that night.
:thumbup: at the very least the referendum should have been more well defined, 3 years on and still no one knows what leave actually means.
The whole thing was rushed to quieten lunatic Tory back benchers and steal the Ukip vote.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
They’ve had 3 yrs to do something that’s best for the population..
It could we'll take several lifetimes. 3 years is nothing given the magnitude of the problem
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
The red lies are a bit of a mish mash on both sides.
At the end of the day, The crux of the problem is, the EU has allowed itself to grow and grow, without putting in place, a plausible leave plan, for any member that wants to leave.
Why on Earth would anyone in their right mind want to leave?
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rudy gestede
:thumbup: at the very least the referendum should have been more well defined, 3 years on and still no one knows what leave actually means.
The whole thing was rushed to quieten lunatic Tory back benchers and steal the Ukip vote.
Nobody knows what leave actually means, because, as I keep saying, there is no protocol or template for any member country to do so.
The public were duped into believing we’d simply just leave, and that would be that.
Personally, I still don’t believe a no deal brexit would be anywhere near as bad as is being made out.
That said, I can understand the panic and worry that this whole shambles is causing.
I’d say the best way forward now, would be for another delay, and an exit strategy drawn up, not by the UK, but by the EU, that is clear, precise, and transparent.
It should then be put to the UK public to either vote for that, or vote for a no deal brexit.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
splott parker
And we should never had a referendum to vote ourselves out. We elect MPs to make crucial decisions like this and thank God we’ve still got a few having a go at sorting out this whole sorry mess. The referendum was a hell of a cop out for parliament, they can always fall back on the line ‘Well you voted for it’. But, talking to a few leavers now they didn’t realise that they were voting for this fiasco, I’m sure some of them thought we’d be out at midnight that night.
Spot on!
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Why on Earth would anyone in their right mind want to leave?
I suggest you ask the 17.4m people who voted to do so.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
I suggest you ask the 17.4m people who voted to do so.
A figure which had now probably fallen to well below 16million and dropping like a stone as we speak.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
Nobody knows what leave actually means, because, as I keep saying, there is no protocol or template for any member country to do so.
The public were duped into believing we’d simply just leave, and that would be that.
Personally, I still don’t believe a no deal brexit would be anywhere near as bad as is being made out.
That said, I can understand the panic and worry that this whole shambles is causing.
I’d say the best way forward now, would be for another delay, and an exit strategy drawn up, not by the UK, but by the EU, that is clear, precise, and transparent.
It should then be put to the UK public to either vote for that, or vote for a no deal brexit.
Well, you've got it there. People were duped into believing it would be easy. Farage said we'd get a deal easy (Norway, Canada, our choice), Johnson said we'd save money and could spend it on the NHS, and he also said the Irish border would be unaffected by Brexit. We now know that these two, and many others involved in the campaign, stand to individually gain massive sums of money from Brexit (not to mention that Johnson got the premiership from it).
As you say, people were duped, and that actually makes it pretty hard from a democratic point of view to argue that the result from 2016 should stand without a followup. Democracy is all about the people making choices from information they have.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Well, you've got it there. People were duped into believing it would be easy. Farage said we'd get a deal easy (Norway, Canada, our choice), Johnson said we'd save money and could spend it on the NHS, and he also said the Irish border would be unaffected by Brexit. We now know that these two, and many others involved in the campaign, stand to individually gain massive sums of money from Brexit (not to mention that Johnson got the premiership from it).
As you say, people were duped, and that actually makes it pretty hard from a democratic point of view to argue that the result from 2016 should stand without a followup. Democracy is all about the people making choices from information they have.
This was always the case. A super rich elite pulling the strings in the background planning for a bonanza by stripping the UK of any protective regulation. The tragedy is that so many of the hapless hordes who voted to Leave did not understand they would suffer badly in the event and were manipulated by a class of immoral speculators.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
This was always the case. A super rich elite pulling the strings in the background planning for a bonanza by stripping the UK of any protective regulation. The tragedy is that so many of the hapless hordes who voted to Leave did not understand they would suffer badly in the event and were manipulated by a class of immoral speculators.
You’re not endearing yourself to me, by using terms like “hapless hordes”.
Going by your logic, if the oh so clever remain voters, with their wonderful gift of hindsight, had got off their arses and voted, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Treseder
You’re not endearing yourself to me, by using terms like “hapless hordes”.
Going by your logic, if the oh so clever remain voters, with their wonderful gift of hindsight, had got off their arses and voted, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
A fair point you make there, many were too complacent, hopefully they won't be when the third referendum comes along. However, I'm sure you'll agree with me that it was a huge con not allowing the 16-17 year olds to vote when they are going to be most affected by the issue. Hopefully that will be rectified in time for the next poll.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
People were duped into believing it would be easy.
Ho, ho, ho, it's always everybody else who gets duped and never you, Mr Trump Russia Collusion man :hehe:
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Ho, ho, ho, it's always everybody else who gets duped and never you, Mr Trump Russia Collusion man :hehe:
I haven't really followed all the black ops and alt right propaganda on Mueller and Russia - certainly not made any claims on it - but is it your view (independently formed of course from the most reliable of objective sources) that Trump is innocent of not only collusion but also of obstruction of justice? I think I know the answer, but you know...... ho ho ho!
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I haven't really followed all the black ops and alt right propaganda on Mueller and Russia - certainly not made any claims on it - but is it your view (independently formed of course from the most reliable of objective sources) that Trump is innocent of not only collusion but also of obstruction of justice? I think I know the answer, but you know...... ho ho ho!
What's the answer?
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
What's the answer?
I asked you a question. Why are you turning it back on me? If you don't know, or refuse to say, that is fine. You are entitled to either ignorance or evasion, and you have history.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I asked you a question. Why are you turning it back on me? If you don't know, or refuse to say, that is fine. You are entitled to either ignorance or evasion, and you have history.
My answer is the total opposite of whatever lardy says. Even though we both have access to exactly the same sources of information, only one of us has been duped. It will be interesting to see who that person is. Maybe we will have to reappraise this new trend of putting people on ignore just because they have superior analysis skills?
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I haven't really followed all the black ops and alt right propaganda on Mueller and Russia - certainly not made any claims on it - but is it your view (independently formed of course from the most reliable of objective sources) that Trump is innocent of not only collusion but also of obstruction of justice? I think I know the answer, but you know...... ho ho ho!
Gluey- an expert on the internal workings of the White House and 10 Downing Street, as well as their future plans
Also Gluey- doesn't realise that the duped sentence is a quote from someone else, not me.
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Re: Operation Yellowhammer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
Gluey- an expert on the internal workings of the White House and 10 Downing Street, as well as their future plans
I'm not an expert on anything written here, we both had access to exactactly the same sources of information. The only difference was the analysis techniques that were used to make sense of the information.
Even though I was a lone voice, and I had to withstand constant character assassinations and ridicule, I still stand by my observations. Luckily we are on a timeline, so we will be able to see who was doing things the right way.