Madine to Sheffield Wednesday for a "reduced" fee?

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Originally Posted by dml1954

You go back 30 odd years and pick on a hopeless player who hardly played any games and use that as an example against my argument. There are many, many players who could be used as examples of players with no Premier League experience like Madine, that have been taken from lower league football and made a success of it at the top level. On that basis no one would ever sign anybody from the lower leagues. You base your opinion of Madine on seeing him make six starts (in two of which he was kicked off the pitch) and seven substitute appearances for us last year. Thats an unreasonable snap opinion in my view because you probably didn't rate him when we bought him.

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Grant Holt springs to mind. Having been a lower league journeyman, he excelled in the Premier League against expectations. I accept such scenarios aren't regular by any means, but yes, I think it's absolutely wrong to write of Madine completely.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Grant Holt springs to mind. Having been a lower league journeyman, he excelled in the Premier League against expectations. I accept such scenarios aren't regular by any means, but yes, I think it's absolutely wrong to write of Madine completely.

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Thank you Eric, I have been trying to think of his name all night!

I was going to make a similar point about him but

a) I couldn't remember his name. Could I suppose have said that big bloke from Norwich

b) The last time I had the temerity to defend Gary Madine ( over his penalty miss against Wolves) I got pilloried ( unjustifiably) by both Bobby Dandruff and TOBW and I really couldn't be bothered again!

Holt's goalscoring record in the league is better than Madine's mind.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Thank you Eric, I have been trying to think of his name all night!

I was going to make a similar point about him but

a) I couldn't remember his name. Could I suppose have said that big bloke from Norwich

b) The last time I had the temerity to defend Gary Madine ( over his penalty miss against Wolves) I got pilloried ( unjustifiably) by both Bobby Dandruff and TOBW and I really couldn't be bothered again!

Holt's goalscoring record in the league is better than Madine's mind.

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I can't sleep in these warm nights, so I may as well answer the Gary Holt comparison now. You are right about Holt's scoring record compared to Madine's. In 08/09 Holt scored twenty eight times for Shrewsbury in League Two, this earned him a move to Norwich when they spent a season in League One and he scored thirty times as they earned promotion. A promotion to the Premier League followed in 10/11 as Holt found the net a further twenty three times and so he headed into the top flight having scored eighty one times in three seasons.
At that time, Holt's career had a goalscoring momentum that Madine's has never done and there had to be a reasonable chance that he could maintain that form in the top flight - seventeen more goals in 11/12 confirmed this to be the case and eight the following season was not too bad a return either.
By comparison, Madine had consecutive seasons early in this decade with Carlisle in League One where he scored eighteen times and this was enough to earn him a move to the Championship where he scored four times for Sheffield Wednesday in 12/13. I'd forgotten that he only managed ten goals in Bolton's promotion season from League One, but to get that many again in what was little more than half a Championship season in a badly struggling side was an impressive achievement even if being first choice penalty taker helped his cause.
I accept goals aren't everything, but the large disparity between the number Holt scored in the seasons immediately before he made it into the Premier League and the number Madine has managed in the last few seasons as he reached the same division means that it's hard to make a case that expectations would be similar as they prepared for their debut seasons in the top flight.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Even you? :hehe:

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Well, I worked out at an early age that I was not good enough to play for City's first team and so my dream of being a professional footballer died at about the age of twelve. This means that I've spent half a century being reconciled to and content with my fate and now dml arrives saying that there is still hope for me - they say it's the hope that kills you and, if I tried to prove his theory correct, it probably would do :hehe:.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I can't sleep in these warm nights, so I may as well answer the Gary Holt comparison now. You are right about Holt's scoring record compared to Madine's. In 08/09 Holt scored twenty eight times for Shrewsbury in League Two, this earned him a move to Norwich when they spent a season in League One and he scored thirty times as they earned promotion. A promotion to the Premier League followed in 10/11 as Holt found the net a further twenty three times and so he headed into the top flight having scored eighty one times in three seasons.
At that time, Holt's career had a goalscoring momentum that Madine's has never done and there had to be a reasonable chance that he could maintain that form in the top flight - seventeen more goals in 11/12 confirmed this to be the case and eight the following season was not too bad a return either.
By comparison, Madine had consecutive seasons early in this decade with Carlisle in League One where he scored eighteen times and this was enough to earn him a move to the Championship where he scored four times for Sheffield Wednesday in 12/13. I'd forgotten that he only managed ten goals in Bolton's promotion season from League One, but to get that many again in what was little more than half a Championship season in a badly struggling side was an impressive achievement even if being first choice penalty taker helped his cause.
I accept goals aren't everything, but the large disparity between the number Holt scored in the seasons immediately before he made it into the Premier League and the number Madine has managed in the last few seasons as he reached the same division means that it's hard to make a case that expectations would be similar as they prepared for their debut seasons in the top flight.

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Zahore has hardly been prolific for us, bar one golden spell in the middle of the 2016-17 season. He missed a number of clear cut chances last season as he’s not clinical enough in front of goal, which we’ll need to be next season in the premier league. Should we get rid of Zahore as well as I’m unsure if he’ll be able to make the step up?

Madine is no world beater and is clearly limited in his game but he is bloody good in the air, has a comparable scoring record to our main striker and will sometimes make life uncomfortable against premier league centre backs who won’t experience that robust style every week. Surely he deserves a chance as well?

Yes:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I can't sleep in these warm nights, so I may as well answer the Gary Holt comparison now. You are right about Holt's scoring record compared to Madine's. In 08/09 Holt scored twenty eight times for Shrewsbury in League Two, this earned him a move to Norwich when they spent a season in League One and he scored thirty times as they earned promotion. A promotion to the Premier League followed in 10/11 as Holt found the net a further twenty three times and so he headed into the top flight having scored eighty one times in three seasons.
At that time, Holt's career had a goalscoring momentum that Madine's has never done and there had to be a reasonable chance that he could maintain that form in the top flight - seventeen more goals in 11/12 confirmed this to be the case and eight the following season was not too bad a return either.
By comparison, Madine had consecutive seasons early in this decade with Carlisle in League One where he scored eighteen times and this was enough to earn him a move to the Championship where he scored four times for Sheffield Wednesday in 12/13. I'd forgotten that he only managed ten goals in Bolton's promotion season from League One, but to get that many again in what was little more than half a Championship season in a badly struggling side was an impressive achievement even if being first choice penalty taker helped his cause.
I accept goals aren't everything, but the large disparity between the number Holt scored in the seasons immediately before he made it into the Premier League and the number Madine has managed in the last few seasons as he reached the same division means that it's hard to make a case that expectations would be similar as they prepared for their debut seasons in the top flight.

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Glenn Murray, is another one that springs to mind, that was not given a good run in the Premier, after getting his teams promoted.

Good solid performances now for Brighton.

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Originally Posted by Stavross1927

Zahore has hardly been prolific for us, bar one golden spell in the middle of the 2016-17 season. He missed a number of clear cut chances last season as he’s not clinical enough in front of goal, which we’ll need to be next season in the premier league. Should we get rid of Zahore as well as I’m unsure if he’ll be able to make the step up?

Madine is no world beater and is clearly limited in his game but he is bloody good in the air, has a comparable scoring record to our main striker and will sometimes make life uncomfortable against premier league centre backs who won’t experience that robust style every week. Surely he deserves a chance as well?

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last 3 Championship seasons:
Zahore p77 g23 0.299 (last season 0.250)
Madine p73 g15 0.205 (last season 0.244)
Ward p93 g19 0.204 (last season 0.222)

Not a lot to choose between them is there!

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Well, I worked out at an early age that I was not good enough to play for City's first team and so my dream of being a professional footballer died at about the age of twelve. This means that I've spent half a century being reconciled to and content with my fate and now dml arrives saying that there is still hope for me - they say it's the hope that kills you and, if I tried to prove his theory correct, it probably would do :hehe:.

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There is no doubt in my mind now, that dml is a stats-obsessed, callous, heartless bastard.

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Originally Posted by Penarth Blues

Careful TOBW - you're potentially very close to doing a Jimmy or a Steve R... :hehe:

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I agree with his comments 100%,If that is doing a “Jimmy”, that’s fine by me.

Quite simply , the guy took a beating in a couple of games but enabled Warnock to rest or bring on Zohore later in the game. I.e Bristol home.

For £2million up to £6 million or whatever he enabled us to get the extra points we needed to get 2nd, now if you are Tan then you successfully speculated to accumulate promotion !

Whether he can score in Premier League, I don’t know , the guy just needed a break and I think was just trying too hard at the end of last season. We already have a trier in Danny Ward so I am concerned with our depth of strikers ...... need another to add not replace to our strikers! P

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I can't sleep in these warm nights, so I may as well answer the Gary Holt comparison now. You are right about Holt's scoring record compared to Madine's. In 08/09 Holt scored twenty eight times for Shrewsbury in League Two, this earned him a move to Norwich when they spent a season in League One and he scored thirty times as they earned promotion. A promotion to the Premier League followed in 10/11 as Holt found the net a further twenty three times and so he headed into the top flight having scored eighty one times in three seasons.
At that time, Holt's career had a goalscoring momentum that Madine's has never done and there had to be a reasonable chance that he could maintain that form in the top flight - seventeen more goals in 11/12 confirmed this to be the case and eight the following season was not too bad a return either.
By comparison, Madine had consecutive seasons early in this decade with Carlisle in League One where he scored eighteen times and this was enough to earn him a move to the Championship where he scored four times for Sheffield Wednesday in 12/13. I'd forgotten that he only managed ten goals in Bolton's promotion season from League One, but to get that many again in what was little more than half a Championship season in a badly struggling side was an impressive achievement even if being first choice penalty taker helped his cause.
I accept goals aren't everything, but the large disparity between the number Holt scored in the seasons immediately before he made it into the Premier League and the number Madine has managed in the last few seasons as he reached the same division means that it's hard to make a case that expectations would be similar as they prepared for their debut seasons in the top flight.

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I have on a couple of occasions read that Madine's record was bolstered by the number of penalties he scored.

Two of his ten goals last season were penalties.

Not a massive proportion of his goals

And it us not uncommon for the main striker to take the penalties.

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Originally Posted by billy.ronson

Quite simply , the guy took a beating in a couple of games but enabled Warnock to rest or bring on Zohore later in the game. I.e Bristol home.

For £2million up to £6 million or whatever he enabled us to get the extra points we needed to get 2nd, now if you are Tan then you successfully speculated to accumulate promotion !

Whether he can score in Premier League, I don’t know , the guy just needed a break and I think was just trying too hard at the end of last season. We already have a trier in Danny Ward so I am concerned with our depth of strikers ...... need another to add not replace to our strikers! P

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Played an important role at Ipswich too when a draw seemed on the cards and also played really well at Sheffield United and won a vital assist in injury time. That’s 5 points gained.

He did miss the pen against Wolves , but then again so did Hoilett

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Grant Holt springs to mind. Having been a lower league journeyman, he excelled in the Premier League against expectations. I accept such scenarios aren't regular by any means, but yes, I think it's absolutely wrong to write of Madine completely.

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Les Ferdinand is another - taken from non league obscurity (Hayes) by QPR in 1987, straight into the top division where he prospered for many years. I dare say if TOBW and others had been supporters of QPR at the time they would have condemned his signing straight away and written him off as having no top division experience and being a waste of money. Every player who serves an apprenticeship in the lower leagues and has success there deserves a chance to show what they can do at the highest level. He may end up not being good enough but there is only one way to find out.

Ian Wright was non league until 22 plucked from Greenwich

Bringing Cameron toshack into this makes sense if making the argument they are of a similar experience and ability.

Of course madine is untested in the premier league but looking at his record over the past few years in a level just below the premier he definitely could make an impact. He certainly wouldn’t be the first of that background to do so. Not sure he’s that dissimilar in style and ability to sam vokes to be honest.

Also was interesting to read harry macguire of current England team and winner of player of the season at a premier club last year- say a few weeks ago Gary madine is the toughest opponent he has ever faced. Doubt anyone at any level has said that about Cameron Toshack.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Les Ferdinand is another - taken from non league obscurity (Hayes) by QPR in 1987, straight into the top division where he prospered for many years. I dare say if TOBW and others had been supporters of QPR at the time they would have condemned his signing straight away and written him off as having no top division experience and being a waste of money. Every player who serves an apprenticeship in the lower leagues and has success there deserves a chance to show what they can do at the highest level. He may end up not being good enough but there is only one way to find out.

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Except Madine hasn't been a success in the lower leagues. If he had, then more people may be willing to give him a chance. Since he's been average (at best) in his career and we have now witnessed him play for City - it's fair to say that a lot of us cannot see how he is going to make the step up to playing Premier League football. It's called an opinion, by the way.

Ah, so now we're moving the goalposts and the claim is that Madine could become another Les Ferdinand or Ian Wright (I'll add Jamie Vardy to the list as well). The obvious difference between that trio and Gary Madine is that, for whatever reason, they fell out of the system for a few years, but once they started being noticed again, they made it to the Premier League/First Division in quite a short time and had long and successful careers at that level for club and country. By contrast, apart from the forced break he had to take from the game, Madine has been in the system for ten years and I'm not aware of any Premier League club expressing an interest in him in that time - Grant Holt is the only realistic comparison that has been made with the situation Madine is in and he had a lot more going for him in terms of confidence and goals going into the Premier League at quite a late age than our player has.

Around a day ago I asked what is it that I'm missing with Madine? I said I was someone who wanted to see the good in any City player, but I've just not seen anything from Madine to make me think he can cut it at top half Championship level, let alone the Premier League. Barely anyone has answered my question and those that have done have have made him sound a bit like a lower division bruiser (there are plenty of players from the eighties and nineties who would name Billy Whitehurst as the toughest striker they faced, but that wasn't because of his footballing skills) when I'd accept he's better than that.

Madine has had a few good halves for us and he has two assists to his name, but, even allowing for his injuries, he has had enough game time to begin to justify the large fee we paid for him - the only way I can see that an argument can be made in favour of this is that the six million quid led to better performances from a striker we already had at the club. For me, Danny Ward, at a quarter of the price Madine cost us, contributed a lot more before his season ending injury and I have to say that if it had been Russell Slade who had spent six million on Madine, he and the player would be getting absolutely slaughtered now given the lack of an end product from him.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Ah, so now we're moving the goalposts and the claim is that Madine could become another Les Ferdinand or Ian Wright (I'll add Jamie Vardy to the list as well). The obvious difference between that trio and Gary Madine is that, for whatever reason, they fell out of the system for a few years, but once they started being noticed again, they made it to the Premier League/First Division in quite a short time and had long and successful careers at that level for club and country. By contrast, apart from the forced break he had to take from the game, Madine has been in the system for ten years and I'm not aware of any Premier League club expressing an interest in him in that time - Grant Holt is the only realistic comparison that has been made with the situation Madine is in and he had a lot more going for him in terms of confidence and goals going into the Premier League at quite a late age than our player has.

Around a day ago I asked what is it that I'm missing with Madine? I said I was someone who wanted to see the good in any City player, but I've just not seen anything from Madine to make me think he can cut it at top half Championship level, let alone the Premier League. Barely anyone has answered my question and those that have done have have made him sound a bit like a lower division bruiser (there are plenty of players from the eighties and nineties who would name Billy Whitehurst as the toughest striker they faced, but that wasn't because of his footballing skills) when I'd accept he's better than that.

Madine has had a few good halves for us and he has two assists to his name, but, even allowing for his injuries, he has had enough game time to begin to justify the large fee we paid for him - the only way I can see that an argument can be made in favour of this is that the six million quid led to better performances from a striker we already had at the club. For me, Danny Ward, at a quarter of the price Madine cost us, contributed a lot more before his season ending injury and I have to say that if it had been Russell Slade who had spent six million on Madine, he and the player would be getting absolutely slaughtered now given the lack of an end product from him.

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I am almost certain that Neil Warnock is well aware that Madine is not worth six million but that he knew our forward line needed freshening up

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Ah, so now we're moving the goalposts and the claim is that Madine could become another Les Ferdinand or Ian Wright (I'll add Jamie Vardy to the list as well). The obvious difference between that trio and Gary Madine is that, for whatever reason, they fell out of the system for a few years, but once they started being noticed again, they made it to the Premier League/First Division in quite a short time and had long and successful careers at that level for club and country. By contrast, apart from the forced break he had to take from the game, Madine has been in the system for ten years and I'm not aware of any Premier League club expressing an interest in him in that time - Grant Holt is the only realistic comparison that has been made with the situation Madine is in and he had a lot more going for him in terms of confidence and goals going into the Premier League at quite a late age than our player has.

Around a day ago I asked what is it that I'm missing with Madine? I said I was someone who wanted to see the good in any City player, but I've just not seen anything from Madine to make me think he can cut it at top half Championship level, let alone the Premier League. Barely anyone has answered my question and those that have done have have made him sound a bit like a lower division bruiser (there are plenty of players from the eighties and nineties who would name Billy Whitehurst as the toughest striker they faced, but that wasn't because of his footballing skills) when I'd accept he's better than that.

Madine has had a few good halves for us and he has two assists to his name, but, even allowing for his injuries, he has had enough game time to begin to justify the large fee we paid for him - the only way I can see that an argument can be made in favour of this is that the six million quid led to better performances from a striker we already had at the club. For me, Danny Ward, at a quarter of the price Madine cost us, contributed a lot more before his season ending injury and I have to say that if it had been Russell Slade who had spent six million on Madine, he and the player would be getting absolutely slaughtered now given the lack of an end product from him.

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Its not Madines fault that he cost £6m, so he doesn't really have to justify the fee. Danny Ward is a different type of player to Madine but he also played 20 games before his injury and scored 4 goals. Bearing mind Madine only started 6 games for us, perhaps you should give him rather longer before you jump to the conclusion that he isn't good enough. Everybody has favourite players and those they dont like as much but surely every player should be given a reasonable chance to prove themselves before they are written off. I think that some people opinions of Madine were formed before he even kicked a ball for us, based on the fee and his previous disciplinary record and criminal problems. Thats unfair by any reasonable persons standards.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Its not Madines fault that he cost £6m, so he doesn't really have to justify the fee. Danny Ward is a different type of player to Madine but he also played 20 games before his injury and scored 4 goals. Bearing mind Madine only started 6 games for us, perhaps you should give him rather longer before you jump to the conclusion that he isn't good enough. Everybody has favourite players and those they dont like as much but surely every player should be given a reasonable chance to prove themselves before they are written off. I think that some people opinions of Madine were formed before he even kicked a ball for us, based on the fee and his previous disciplinary record and criminal problems. Thats unfair by any reasonable persons standards.

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I don't think that Madine will be good enough based on what I've seen and his history as a footballer, i'd say that's reasonable enough, infact, Warnock would have done the same thing plenty of times, after all, that's how football works at every level at a Professional club, somebody has to make a call based on the information at hand. All I've read in support of Madine is that he's good in the air and is prepared to get his face smashed in, highly admirable. What else does he do, what can you see in his game that says to you that he could be useful for us and contribute to the overall play next season? It's not enough to say that he deserves a chance or could be a late developer, this is the highest level of football and it needs to be slightly more scientific than the opinions you offer. So come on, tell us what you see, what can he offer us at a higher level?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I don't think that Madine will be good enough based on what I've seen and his history as a footballer, i'd say that's reasonable enough, infact, Warnock would have done the same thing plenty of times, after all, that's how football works at every level at a Professional club, somebody has to make a call based on the information at hand. All I've read in support of Madine is that he's good in the air and is prepared to get his face smashed in, highly admirable. What else does he do, what can you see in his game that says to you that he could be useful for us and contribute to the overall play next season? It's not enough to say that he deserves a chance or could be a late developer, this is the highest level of football and it needs to be slightly more scientific than the opinions you offer. So come on, tell us what you see, what can he offer us at a higher level?

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I'd add that he is really good at holding onto the ball and appears to have good awareness and touch to bring in others. I genuinely think he is more skilful than Zohore but doesn't possess his vital asset of pace.

He may end up being unable to make the step up to the Prem, but I do not think it is a foregone conclusion by any means. I have a great deal of respect for many of the other posters who think he has no chance - I just don't think that point has been proven yet.

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Originally Posted by dml1954

Its not Madines fault that he cost £6m, so he doesn't really have to justify the fee. Danny Ward is a different type of player to Madine but he also played 20 games before his injury and scored 4 goals. Bearing mind Madine only started 6 games for us, perhaps you should give him rather longer before you jump to the conclusion that he isn't good enough. Everybody has favourite players and those they dont like as much but surely every player should be given a reasonable chance to prove themselves before they are written off. I think that some people opinions of Madine were formed before he even kicked a ball for us, based on the fee and his previous disciplinary record and criminal problems. Thats unfair by any reasonable persons standards.

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We’d all seen him play though, I don’t think it’s wrong to have an opinion on him before he joined. When I’ve watched him for Wednesday and Bolton he has never shown me anything to let me believe he’s good enough for the premier league or even the top end of the championship.

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Originally Posted by Penarth Blues

I'd add that he is really good at holding onto the ball and appears to have good awareness and touch to bring in others. I genuinely think he is more skilful than Zohore but doesn't possess his vital asset of pace.

He may end up being unable to make the step up to the Prem, but I do not think it is a foregone conclusion by any means. I have a great deal of respect for many of the other posters who think he has no chance - I just don't think that point has been proven yet.

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You think he’s more skilful than zohore?! Jesus I’ve heard it all know :hehe:

With zohore you can see he has the talent his problem is he can be a bit lazy or maybe hasn’t been intelligent enough to make the right decisions. We turned down 20 million for him last summer ffs.

Madine is not a skilful player and never has been. He isn’t a bad player but I don’t think he has the attributes to step up to the premier league.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

You think he’s more skilful than zohore?! Jesus I’ve heard it all know :hehe:

With zohore you can see he has the talent his problem is he can be a bit lazy or maybe hasn’t been intelligent enough to make the right decisions. We turned down 20 million for him last summer ffs.

Madine is not a skilful player and never has been. He isn’t a bad player but I don’t think he has the attributes to step up to the premier league.

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I can only go on what I've seen him do when I've watched him. I don't need you to agree with my opinion, but I can't pretend I think something else when I don't.

I do think some people are unable to be impartial about a players abilities for whatever reason. I've seen enough touches and thoughtful play from Madine in the few times he's played to think he may have a chance once he's had a pre-season with us. It's impossible to really understand what a player is capable of when they join in a high pressure situation in January and have to try and understand how their team mates play with no practice matches to work on things.

I've said earlier he may not be able to make the step up but I think writing him off is premature at this stage.