Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Jordi - It's my mates brother who did this with his flat - I stand corrected if it's not Merthyr - next time I see him I'll ask.

---

Ninian - I'm not saying it's not the case. It just sounds very much like a leasing scheme which all the authorities with their managing agents operate. It could be another scheme as all individual authorities have various schemes in order to utilise the private rented sector. It's foolish of local authorities not to look to utilise the existing housing stock and working with the private housing sector can have other benefits such as bringing empty homes back into use.

Unfortunately, the incentives for private landlords are diminishing (returns and income) due to concerns with continued welfare reform/Universal Credit, reductions in tax relief and increased income tax. Some will have little sympathy for landlords as they are viewed negatively but it will just be another factor in this country's housing crisis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joecity

This where will the money come from lark. Surely a government that can borrow money at a record low rate, create jobs through constructing housing stock that will in turn generate income and become an assert improve health, criminal justice cots, related improvements in getting people back to or keeping them in work, save countless millions on b and b s, housing benefit rip offs. The wider benefits to society of well housed people. You could ask what will the cost be of not doing it.

---

That's basic economics. Austerity strangled the British economy and it has not brought about the savings to the public purse relative to the misery it has caused millions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joecity

This where will the money come from lark. Surely a government that can borrow money at a record low rate, create jobs through constructing housing stock that will in turn generate income and become an assert improve health, criminal justice cots, related improvements in getting people back to or keeping them in work, save countless millions on b and b s, housing benefit rip offs. The wider benefits to society of well housed people. You could ask what will the cost be of not doing it.

---

The UK government and every other government who issues its own currency doesn't need to borrow money with any interest attached because it can create any amount for itself at 0% - that's commonly known as quantitative easing, and the UK has magicked £450b of that into existence since 2008. Just 7% of that found its way into the economy, much of the rest lined the pockets of the usual suspects, the bankers.

UK debt to GDP is 90%. The government make out that's horrifically high as cover for swingeing cuts and the poorest have been in the crosshairs. What they never let on is it stood at almost 250% of GDP after World War 2. Britain recovered not by implementing austerity but the direct opposite. One component was building a million prefab homes in 7 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well the Tories found money to bribe the DUP to get a government together

It's their watch now and they are overseeing a massive housing crisis

The problem is the Tory party never have and never will give a feck about the vulnerable in society as they don't vote for them

---

What a load of rubbish. You actually think that the Labour government pre 2010 have nothing to do with the state the country is in now ?. They spent billions of pounds of money they didn't have, which our children and childrens children will still be paying for in 50-100 years time. The country was almost bankrupt in 2010 and Corbyns answer to all this is to propose spending and borrowing more in future. How do you know who votes for the Conservatives anyway. There are many of working class and vulnerable people who must have voted for them in 2010 and since in order for them to get in. Corbyn and Mcdonnell are basically communists who dont give a fig about the ordinary people of this country and are only interested in lining their own pockets and the pockets of the people who are backing them (the Corbynistas). The richest and most powerful people in far left/communist places like Russia and China are the leaders, whilst most of the prople live in abject poverty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dml1954

What a load of rubbish. You actually think that the Labour government pre 2010 have nothing to do with the state the country is in now ?. They spent billions of pounds of money they didn't have, which our children and childrens children will still be paying for in 50-100 years time.

---

George Osborne said he would have spent exactly the same as Labour had he been in power, so what is your point?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

George Osborne said he would have spent exactly the same as Labour had he been in power, so what is your point?

---

he was making a statement about how government spending in the run up to the crash meant the country was unprepared for the downturn. I thought it was quite obvious really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TISS

he was making a statement about how government spending in the run up to the crash meant the country was unprepared for the downturn. I thought it was quite obvious really.

---

So when asked the question recently by Andrew Neil, "Would you do what Labour did" and Osborne's reply was "broadly speaking, yes", coupled with the fact that Osborne backed Labour's spending plans 100% when in opposition, should we assume that had the Conservatives been in power, they would have spent the same or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So when asked the question recently by Andrew Neil, "Would you do what Labour did" and Osborne's reply was "broadly speaking, yes", coupled with the fact that Osborne backed Labour's spending plans 100% when in opposition, should we assume that had the Conservatives been in power, they would have spent the same or not?

---

Perhaps, given policy would have been different e.g. we may not have light touch regulation although I doubt it.

don't get on your high horse about Labour being at the tiller. It happened when they were in power. If the Tories were in power it may also have happened as I imagine regulation would have been no more stringent than under labour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TISS

Perhaps, given policy would have been different e.g. we may not have light touch regulation although I doubt it.

don't get on your high horse about Labour being at the tiller. It happened when they were in power. If the Tories were in power it may also have happened as I imagine regulation would have been no more stringent than under labour.

---

I have no doubts that the same would have happened had the Conservatives been in power, which is why it is utterly hypocritcal of them (or their voters) to blame another party for doing exactly what they would have done. However, this is what has happened. The interesting thing in all of this is that not one single independent fiscal organisation have agreed with the Tory mantra that Labour's spending helped cause a crash. Indeed, the BoE, IFS, OBR have all said the opposite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William Treseder

Sludge. Your hatred of the Conservatives is legendary on here, and I’m not disagreeing with you, but if 90% of the wealth in the UK is owned by 10% of the people, how come they are in power most of the time, and when Labour are in charge, why do things never seem to get better? After all, if Labour did a better, fairer job of running the country then they’d surely stay in power longer?
They are as bad as each other.

---

We have never had a proper socialist Labour government , that's why , Blair was Thatcher in a suit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dml1954

What a load of rubbish. You actually think that the Labour government pre 2010 have nothing to do with the state the country is in now ?. They spent billions of pounds of money they didn't have, which our children and childrens children will still be paying for in 50-100 years time. The country was almost bankrupt in 2010 and Corbyns answer to all this is to propose spending and borrowing more in future. How do you know who votes for the Conservatives anyway. There are many of working class and vulnerable people who must have voted for them in 2010 and since in order for them to get in. Corbyn and Mcdonnell are basically communists who dont give a fig about the ordinary people of this country and are only interested in lining their own pockets and the pockets of the people who are backing them (the Corbynistas). The richest and most powerful people in far left/communist places like Russia and China are the leaders, whilst most of the prople live in abject poverty.

---

Rubbish , the poor and disadvantaged are the least likely to vote , many are not even on the electoral register !!

As for spending money we didn't have , you have been reading too many right wing newspapers

Corbyn may not be everybody's cup of tea but he has shown there is a demand for democratic socialism in this country

People have had enough of market led capitalism and the economics of greed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William Treseder

Sludge. Your hatred of the Conservatives is legendary on here, and I’m not disagreeing with you, but if 90% of the wealth in the UK is owned by 10% of the people, how come they are in power most of the time, and when Labour are in charge, why do things never seem to get better? After all, if Labour did a better, fairer job of running the country then they’d surely stay in power longer?
They are as bad as each other.

---

We have never had a true socialist Labour government

One day I hope we will

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

We have never had a proper socialist Labour government , that's why , Blair was Thatcher in a suit

---

being a youngster compared to yourself sludge i have only known 1 labour government mate
witch was as you point out Blair and Brown

wasn't there socialist labour governments in the past then ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Rubbish , the poor and disadvantaged are the least likely to vote , many are not even on the electoral register !!

As for spending money we didn't have , you have been reading too many right wing newspapers

Corbyn may not be everybody's cup of tea but he has shown there is a demand for democratic socialism in this country

People have had enough of market led capitalism and the economics of greed

---

but why are the poor and disadvantaged less likely to vote in your opinion ?
how do you define poor and disadvantaged ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS

but why are the poor and disadvantaged less likely to vote in your opinion ?
how do you define poor and disadvantaged ?

---

Because they feel powerless, have mental health problems , are homeless or badly housed

I define poor and disadvantaged according to Institute of fiscal studies data and information from organisations like the child poverty action group

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS

being a youngster compared to yourself sludge i have only known 1 labour government mate
witch was as you point out Blair and Brown

wasn't there socialist labour governments in the past then ?

---

Brown and Blair were not socialists , Brown was a good man who made some poor decisions , Blair was a Tory

There have been labour governments in the past who were leaning towards democratic socialism but didn't quite get there

Harold Wilson was a good bloke

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Because they feel powerless, have mental health problems , are homeless or badly housed

I define poor and disadvantaged according to Institute of fiscal studies data and information from organisations like the child poverty action group

---

i don't know how u can compare mental health issues with being poor i cant tie that one together sludge mate
and powerless there are times when everyone of us feels powerless
I'm sorry mate i think you have gone so far above my head I'm walking under it lol
can you break it down please :thumbup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS

i don't know how u can compare mental health issues with being poor i cant tie that one together sludge mate
and powerless there are times when everyone of us feels powerless
I'm sorry mate i think you have gone so far above my head I'm walking under it lol
can you break it down please :thumbup:

---

People with mental health problems are just about the most disadvantaged in society ......they are more likely to be out of work than any other group in society and amongst disabled people are those most likely to rely on benefits .......that's poor

And you may feel powerless from time to time and you are right everybody does , but the poor and disadvantaged and vulnerable feel powerless and excluded from society every fecking day

Of people with long term health conditions like diabetes , lung problems , multiple sclerosis , heart disease etc , people with severe and enduring mental health problems are the least likely to be in work due to stigma and discrimination ........they are poor and powerless and often need a great deal of advocacy and support to live

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Eric didnt know you could predict the past - you have no way of knowing what the conservatives would have done

---

Osborne says he would have spent the same as Labour and backed their spending plans in opposition. That seems conclusive enough to me. Now had he said he wouldn't have spent the same and attacked Labour's spending plans in opposition then there are grounds to suggest things would have turned out differently. Seems logical enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

I would that counter that a little, the brand new facility over in Llandough for mental health is very good and certainly meets the needs of people in the area with mental health problems.

THE issue is people who refuse treatment and instead self medicate using drugs / alcohol. It is of little wonder they become homeless - as they have refused help (for any number of reasons), their employer will eventually sack them and the mortgage company repossess etc. I had a close friend who luckily has an understanding employer - he recently decided to not take his medication - and went back on the booze - he was sectioned (again) last month and is currently back on the medication.

What people with mental health problems need is the help of the support / crash team to call on - when they have lapsed. Once they become homeless, then they almost become contactless to the authorities, which is a spiral that is hard to break free from - unless they are forced to detox - which is not possible unless they are sectioned first.

You could build them a brand new house if you want but it wont help their addiction issues

---

Well I have been in the brand new unit in llandough as a patient and my experience is that the mental health services in Bridgend were far better , I am in a support group and many are not impressed with the new unit

Have you been admitted ?

By crash team you mean the crisis team

Addiction and self medication is a very complex issue , but that's beside the point , people with mental health problems are amongst the poorest and most excluded in society , whichever way you want to look at it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dml1954

What a load of rubbish. You actually think that the Labour government pre 2010 have nothing to do with the state the country is in now ?. They spent billions of pounds of money they didn't have, which our children and childrens children will still be paying for in 50-100 years time. The country was almost bankrupt in 2010 and Corbyns answer to all this is to propose spending and borrowing more in future. How do you know who votes for the Conservatives anyway. There are many of working class and vulnerable people who must have voted for them in 2010 and since in order for them to get in. Corbyn and Mcdonnell are basically communists who dont give a fig about the ordinary people of this country and are only interested in lining their own pockets and the pockets of the people who are backing them (the Corbynistas). The richest and most powerful people in far left/communist places like Russia and China are the leaders, whilst most of the prople live in abject poverty.

---

'What a load of rubbish', to borrow from you.

If the UK was 'almost bankrupt' in 2010 (defined as the government being unable to pay all its debts immediately if they were all called in?) then that was true for most western governments - certainly the USA. But that technical definition is not useful or very illuminating. The official UK debt to GDP ratio in 2010 was under 70% - lower than many other western countries, and much lower than in earlier decades. If you add in the so-called 'hidden' debts or liabilities then that % rises steeply, but so it does for most other countries too. Most of the debate about unofficial debt and liabilities is so politicised that it is hard to find any figures to trust - but in any case it is not a new phenomenon.

As this piece describes, if the UK was broke in 2010 it had been broke for centuries! In other words it's a scare-mongering headline with no value.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tain-not-broke

Your solution to defecit and low growth seems to be cuts. The alternative strategy of investing to promote growth and greater national income through government capital projects (funded by low interest borrowing) is a century old and has worked all around the world. It may not fit with the Thatcherite 'corner shop' model of economics, but then the Chancellor of the Exchequer doesn't keep the assets and revenues of the UK in a shoe box under his bed either. Labour has been consistent in advocating a version of Keynsian economics to invest and build our way out of trouble - and has a lot of popular and academic support for its plans.

Yes, many working people voted Tory in 2010 - and 2015 - and every other election where they had a vote. They always have. A lot of people in elections vote against their own interests for a lot of complicated reasons. In my opinion it has historically been down to The Sun, The Mail and an unhealthy deference. Just maybe a few crunched the numbers and read the manifestos and thought Thatcher or Cameron were the answer. My 'out-laws' are an example.

Corbyn and McDonnell are not communists. They are left social democrats. They are also - obviously - amongst that small group of MPs who have consistently not lined their own pockets (see expenses). You are entitled to disagree with them and detest their politics, but the personal attack on them and their motives is pathetic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

'What a load of rubbish', to borrow from you.

If the UK was 'almost bankrupt' in 2010 (defined as the government being unable to pay all its debts immediately if they were all called in?) then that was true for most western governments - certainly the USA. But that technical definition is not useful or very illuminating. The official UK debt to GDP ratio in 2010 was under 70% - lower than many other western countries, and much lower than in earlier decades. If you add in the so-called 'hidden' debts or liabilities then that % rises steeply, but so it does for most other countries too. Most of the debate about unofficial debt and liabilities is so politicised that it is hard to find any figures to trust - but in any case it is not a new phenomenon.

As this piece describes, if the UK was broke in 2010 it had been broke for centuries! In other words it's a scare-mongering headline with no value.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tain-not-broke

Your solution to defecit and low growth seems to be cuts. The alternative strategy of investing to promote growth and greater national income through government capital projects (funded by low interest borrowing) is a century old and has worked all around the world. It may not fit with the Thatcherite 'corner shop' model of economics, but then the Chancellor of the Exchequer doesn't keep the assets and revenues of the UK in a shoe box under his bed either. Labour has been consistent in advocating a version of Keynsian economics to invest and build our way out of trouble - and has a lot of popular and academic support for its plans.

Yes, many working people voted Tory in 2010 - and 2015 - and every other election where they had a vote. They always have. A lot of people in elections vote against their own interests for a lot of complicated reasons. In my opinion it has historically been down to The Sun, The Mail and an unhealthy deference. Just maybe a few crunched the numbers and read the manifestos and thought thatcher or Cameron were the answer.

Corbyn and McDonnell are not communists. They are left social democrats. They are also - obviously - amongst that small group of MPs who have consistently not lined their own pockets (see expenses). You are entitled to disagree with them and detest their politics, but the personal attack on them and their motives is pathetic.

---

Well said

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well I have been in the brand new unit in llandough as a patient and my experience is that the mental health services in Bridgend were far better , I am in a support group and many are not impressed with the new unit

Have you been admitted ?

By crash team you mean the crisis team

Addiction and self medication is a very complex issue , but that's beside the point , people with mental health problems are amongst the poorest and most excluded in society , whichever way you want to look at it

---

There are fewer beds in llandough than whitchurch had

The staff in the new unit are overworked and vary in their attitude towards those with mental health problems , the initial assessment team were ok but once you are transferred to a ward it's a different matter , some of the nurses were kind and caring , others sat there and ignored people in distress

The unit may be newly built but it certainly has many faults ......

How do you know it certainly meets the needs of people in the local area ?

What facts do you base this on ?........I don't mean a few stories about so and so

The patient advocacy service was dealing with several complaints when I was in there

The crisis team has to cover Cardiff, penarth , Barry , llantwit major, cowbridge and the rural vale reaching right up to Bridgend ......it's the role of the crisis team to prevent people going into hospital in the first place , I know of a young woman of 19 who was seriously ill and needed to be in hospital yet had to wait 24 hours for the crisis team to get back to her

What are you basing your comments .......the new unit certainly meets the needs of people in the area ......on ?

The evidence from service users , voluntary sector organisations and mental health advocates is not in line with your statement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well said

---

Yes well positioned , yet I still don't think as a labour voter more subsidized industry , borrowing , repealing of union law ,is the answer to our woes .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by life on mars

Yes well positioned , yet I still don't think as a labour voter more subsidized industry , borrowing , repealing of union law ,is the answer to our woes .

---

I do

Nationalise gas , water , electricity , the trains , buses

By spending money on house building .....and I mean both private and council housing , and giving the workers more rights we will be a more civilised and fairer country

And people will still be able to afford the latest apple iphone for £1000 if they wish

Never confuse communism with democratic socialism

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I do

Nationalise gas , water , electricity , the trains , buses

By spending money on house building .....and I mean both private and council housing , and giving the workers more rights we will be a more civilised and fairer country

And people will still be able to afford the latest apple iphone for £1000 if they wish

Never confuse communism with democratic socialism

---

Agreed.
Also a great post by Jon.

We need to get away from all this talk of austerity. Under the Tories the well off had tax cuts. It was targeted austerity aimed at the weaker in society. Bloody disgusting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pearcey3

Agreed.
Also a great post by Jon.

We need to get away from all this talk of austerity. Under the Tories the well off had tax cuts. It was targeted austerity aimed at the weaker in society. Bloody disgusting.

---

Indeed , fecking disgraceful , the weakest in society can't fight back

That's why we need a safety net to care for them because you can bet your arse the conservatives won't

They will leave that to the neo con policies of the capitalist market place , where greed is good , money rules , the strong survive and scraps are thrown at the vulnerable

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

PM sent

---

Read and replied to

I remember drinking in the model inn one night yrs ago and about a dozen down on their luck types who were sleeping rough had come in for a pint.
I didn’t go down well when the barman rang the last orders bell and shouted “come on you lot. Haven’t you got homes to go to?”.

Sludge you are living in fantasy land