Madine stats

Looking at whoscored.com to see if that sheds light on Gary Madine's loss of form since joining us.

Madine was an ever present starter for Bolton before joining us, being substituted on only 6 occasions of the 28 starts he made. Since joining us he's started 5, been a used substitute 6 times and not been used at all another 5 times. He's not had a settled place in the team, which can't help given that he was used to starting regularly. That's football of course - Zohore has been superb since Madine's arrival and Madine hasn't warranted replacing him. Welcome to the top of the division.

We don't need to mention goals as there's clearly a difference between his time here and at Bolton. It's interesting to look at the number of attempts on goal he's managed at both clubs. For us, he's managed 11 shots at an average time taken of almost 46 minutes per shot. At Bolton he managed 76 attempts on goal at an average time of 32 minutes per attempt. Penalties will account for some of that, but it's clear that at Bolton, he had more opportunities to score. Yes, the penalty against Wolves was poor and he should have buried the chance against Derby, but he's been starved of opportunities to put the ball in the net for us.

Is that down to him? Well, Zohore has our highest number of shots per game and doesn't feature in the highest eschalongs of that particular divisional table, yet the attacking rating of Morrison and Bamba is pretty high. I'm not going to suggest for a second that Madine is blameless, but he's joined a team that creates less chances for strikers from open play than Bolton.

However, there are some positives. Madine has made more key passes and assists on average at his time with us than he had at Bolton. He's also had fewer poor touches of the ball and has been dispossessed less. However, he used to be fouled quite regularly for Bolton but has rarely been fouled with us.

What's interesting is we get the "Madine is shit, strikers need to score goals". Well, Madine scored more for Bolton this season than Zohore has for us... our top scorer is a converted pretend defender....

That fits in with your stats, we don't create enough chances for our strikers. We rely upon set pieces.

I wouldn't go on the "fouled" stats though. That's subjective, we see fouls every game not given. Mostly in the penalty area against Morrison....

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Looking at whoscored.com to see if that sheds light on Gary Madine's loss of form since joining us.

Madine was an ever present starter for Bolton before joining us, being substituted on only 6 occasions of the 28 starts he made. Since joining us he's started 5, been a used substitute 6 times and not been used at all another 5 times. He's not had a settled place in the team, which can't help given that he was used to starting regularly. That's football of course - Zohore has been superb since Madine's arrival and Madine hasn't warranted replacing him. Welcome to the top of the division.

We don't need to mention goals as there's clearly a difference between his time here and at Bolton. It's interesting to look at the number of attempts on goal he's managed at both clubs. For us, he's managed 11 shots at an average time taken of almost 46 minutes per shot. At Bolton he managed 76 attempts on goal at an average time of 32 minutes per attempt. Penalties will account for some of that, but it's clear that at Bolton, he had more opportunities to score. Yes, the penalty against Wolves was poor and he should have buried the chance against Derby, but he's been starved of opportunities to put the ball in the net for us.

Is that down to him? Well, Zohore has our highest number of shots per game and doesn't feature in the highest eschalongs of that particular divisional table, yet the attacking rating of Morrison and Bamba is pretty high. I'm not going to suggest for a second that Madine is blameless, but he's joined a team that creates less chances for strikers from open play than Bolton.

However, there are some positives. Madine has made more key passes and assists on average at his time with us than he had at Bolton. He's also had fewer poor touches of the ball and has been dispossessed less. However, he used to be fouled quite regularly for Bolton but has rarely been fouled with us.

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Surprised Madine has had so many goal attempts, I think of Ronnie Moore when I watch him play because he he seems to be a striker who, apart from not scoring for us, is also not missing many - I think Ronnie Moore scored four times for us in 79/80 and my clear recollection is of me thinking that it's hardly as if he is missing sitters every game, he just never got into the positions where he was likely to have chances. To be fair to Moore, he always put in a really big shift for the team and was prepared to go out into wide areas to allow spaces to develop for others to exploit - for someone with such a good scoring record at his other clubs, he was very unselfish and it was his strike partner, the less mobile and less naturally talented, Gary Stevens who benefited most.

Madine was clearly the main man at Bolton and so I would guess he was not expected to move around as much as Moore used to with us, but I wouldn't say too much has changed at Cardiff for him in that respect because, apart from twenty odd minutes I think it was at Ipswich, he has been up front by himself.

Zohore is far more mobile than Madine is and I'd say possibly a majority of the running he does in a game for us consists of trying, and mostly failing, to close down defenders as they pass to each other at the back - it always gets a round of applause from the crowd and, very occasionally, it may cause mistake to be made by our opponents. However, I've always thought of it as a bit of a pointless exercise and would prefer to see our main striker using his energy making the sort of attacking runs which enable him to show the best parts of his game, but then you get back to the quality of the service he gets and the ability of his team mates to consistently pick him out with the sort of pass Gunnarsson gave him against Forest.

Zohore is poor in the air for his height, but it struck me how many of Madine's goals in the videos I saw of his time at Bolton were from headers. He is a different type of striker from Zohore who needs a completely different type of service and yet, with our team seemingly unable to hit many of the sort of passes that would bring the best out of the Dane, it is striking how few chances a team which nearly always plays with two wingers create in open play from aerial crosses towards a centre forward - perhaps those who have seen more of Madine playing for us in the flesh than me (he's played far more football for us away from home than at home - another factor which makes it harder for him to score) can remember headed chances in open play that Madine has had, but I can't recall one of them.

I mentioned in the thread about Zohore flattering to deceive that I don't feel the strikers are the issue when it comes to their lack of goals, it's a team and style of play that, as ccfc is my life says, fashions very few decent chances in open play for those leading our attack - we aren't good at providing opportunities for a quick, strong forward who runs the channels and likes to play on the shoulder of his markers and we also struggle when we have somewhere who relies on strength and aerial ability more, so you have to wonder, what sort of striker would prosper in our team with the current way of playing?

The problem is our "wingers" aren't really wingers.

The aim is always to try to cut in, I can't remember a great deal of times when they've hit the byline and whipped crosses in - when doing so the delivery has often been poor, hitting first defender.

Look at Paterson's goal - quality cross in, so scared of Madine both defenders that Paterson had the space to set the volley up.

This isn't anything new for us - had the same with Gestede. Blackburn got the crosses in and look what happened - he was a 20 goal a season striker. We've lacked a striker capable of achieving that for many a year.

We seem to be half hoofball, half over play but overwhelmingly leave strikers more or less isolated. That's why Zohore or Madine have to go out wide, drop deep to get the ball. That's all well and good dragging defenders around if you're getting midfielders taking advantage of the space. We don't. Our midfield is playing too deep at times; means we've a good defensive record but lacking going forward.

Here’s the stat to prove he has been scoring lol.

https://twitter.com/notofficialccfc/...582057473?s=21

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Surprised Madine has had so many goal attempts, I think of Ronnie Moore when I watch him play because he he seems to be a striker who, apart from not scoring for us, is also not missing many - I think Ronnie Moore scored four times for us in 79/80 and my clear recollection is of me thinking that it's hardly as if he is missing sitters every game, he just never got into the positions where he was likely to have chances. To be fair to Moore, he always put in a really big shift for the team and was prepared to go out into wide areas to allow spaces to develop for others to exploit - for someone with such a good scoring record at his other clubs, he was very unselfish and it was his strike partner, the less mobile and less naturally talented, Gary Stevens who benefited most.

Madine was clearly the main man at Bolton and so I would guess he was not expected to move around as much as Moore used to with us, but I wouldn't say too much has changed at Cardiff for him in that respect because, apart from twenty odd minutes I think it was at Ipswich, he has been up front by himself.

Zohore is far more mobile than Madine is and I'd say possibly a majority of the running he does in a game for us consists of trying, and mostly failing, to close down defenders as they pass to each other at the back - it always gets a round of applause from the crowd and, very occasionally, it may cause mistake to be made by our opponents. However, I've always thought of it as a bit of a pointless exercise and would prefer to see our main striker using his energy making the sort of attacking runs which enable him to show the best parts of his game, but then you get back to the quality of the service he gets and the ability of his team mates to consistently pick him out with the sort of pass Gunnarsson gave him against Forest.

Zohore is poor in the air for his height, but it struck me how many of Madine's goals in the videos I saw of his time at Bolton were from headers. He is a different type of striker from Zohore who needs a completely different type of service and yet, with our team seemingly unable to hit many of the sort of passes that would bring the best out of the Dane, it is striking how few chances a team which nearly always plays with two wingers create in open play from aerial crosses towards a centre forward - perhaps those who have seen more of Madine playing for us in the flesh than me (he's played far more football for us away from home than at home - another factor which makes it harder for him to score) can remember headed chances in open play that Madine has had, but I can't recall one of them.

I mentioned in the thread about Zohore flattering to deceive that I don't feel the strikers are the issue when it comes to their lack of goals, it's a team and style of play that, as ccfc is my life says, fashions very few decent chances in open play for those leading our attack - we aren't good at providing opportunities for a quick, strong forward who runs the channels and likes to play on the shoulder of his markers and we also struggle when we have somewhere who relies on strength and aerial ability more, so you have to wonder, what sort of striker would prosper in our team with the current way of playing?

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I think you've hit the nail on the head, as always! As ccfcismylife says, our wingers aren't really wingers. If anything, our full backs are better wingers than our wingers, who are more strikers playing in a wide role.

I'm trying to find an easy way of finding out how many chances teams create for their strikers, but these don't seem to exist. I'm with you, I don't think we'd be high up in a divisional table of these chances created.

If Madine's strength is being a more central focus to get on the end of crosses, why don't we set ourselves up to get the best out of him? I'm particularly surprised we've not seen Liam Feeney involved when Madine plays - Feeney is at least a player who looks to get crosses into the box, more so than any of our other wide players. Talking of our wingers, and we have several, I can't fathom why Warnock has had such a haphazard method of selecting them!

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Looking at whoscored.com to see if that sheds light on Gary Madine's loss of form since joining us.

Madine was an ever present starter for Bolton before joining us, being substituted on only 6 occasions of the 28 starts he made. Since joining us he's started 5, been a used substitute 6 times and not been used at all another 5 times. He's not had a settled place in the team, which can't help given that he was used to starting regularly. That's football of course - Zohore has been superb since Madine's arrival and Madine hasn't warranted replacing him. Welcome to the top of the division.

We don't need to mention goals as there's clearly a difference between his time here and at Bolton. It's interesting to look at the number of attempts on goal he's managed at both clubs. For us, he's managed 11 shots at an average time taken of almost 46 minutes per shot. At Bolton he managed 76 attempts on goal at an average time of 32 minutes per attempt. Penalties will account for some of that, but it's clear that at Bolton, he had more opportunities to score. Yes, the penalty against Wolves was poor and he should have buried the chance against Derby, but he's been starved of opportunities to put the ball in the net for us.

Is that down to him? Well, Zohore has our highest number of shots per game and doesn't feature in the highest eschalongs of that particular divisional table, yet the attacking rating of Morrison and Bamba is pretty high. I'm not going to suggest for a second that Madine is blameless, but he's joined a team that creates less chances for strikers from open play than Bolton.

However, there are some positives. Madine has made more key passes and assists on average at his time with us than he had at Bolton. He's also had fewer poor touches of the ball and has been dispossessed less. However, he used to be fouled quite regularly for Bolton but has rarely been fouled with us.

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I thought he was in the thick of it on Tuesday and put himself about pretty well, but as others say, if he doesn't get the game time and the kind of service he likes he may not fit into our current setup. Shame he doesn't get more service. Anyway, fingers crossed for next 2 games and hoping they can lift themselves if they have to go to playoffs. Won't be easy, they'll be a bit down I'd say.

I do think opposition defenders do fear Madine....you only got to look at Patersons goal against Derby to highlight this.
He had 2 defenders on him leaving Patterson free to put the ball in the net.

In terms of xG Zohore has been one of the highest performers in the league all season long

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Originally Posted by Rjk

In terms of xG Zohore has been one of the highest performers in the league all season long

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Are we, as a club, one of the best in terms of converting expected goals? My feeling is that we tend to take our chances more often than teams take them against us.

If you look at the likes of Earnshaw, Chopra, Thorne, Jerome in recent years we had guys who played up front and put the ball in the net. They scored lots of goals and moved on. We definitely don't have anyone up front in the same mould and the football is very different.

He needs a goal. His awful attempt at a free shot in the Derby penalty area shows his complete lack of confidence when having to think. He had almost too much time for the ball to come across to him. Penalty the same.

He would thrive from whipped in crosses, getting across his man. He would win plenty of those duels. We just don't do enough of it. I'm hoping Hoilett and NML rediscover earlier form as they are integral to how we have got results.

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Originally Posted by Taffy Blue in Berkshire

If you look at the likes of Earnshaw, Chopra, Thorne, Jerome in recent years we had guys who played up front and put the ball in the net. They scored lots of goals and moved on. We definitely don't have anyone up front in the same mould and the football is very different.

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Earnshaw and Chopra were two lightning quick, short little terriers. Those types of strikers don't seem to exist in the game as much as they used to. Now it's more about filling midfield with players in a more defensive type of system. Not many clubs seem to have partnerships up front, either.

I would be interested in a zohore madine partnership. Think potentially they would compliment each others game.

I feel sorry for our strikers in many games where we set up with our conservative style.

The ball in many instances bypasses the midfield. If the striker holds the ball up there isn't usually a midfield player close and if they flick it on there is usually nobody running in behind onto the ball.

Warnock does not seem to move from that style either which makes the strikers role in many ways a thankless task.

Against Derby any throw in from our own half went up the line. Any throw in the opposition half went up the line until close enough for Gunnarsson to lob it in the mixer.
Any free kick gets lumped in. In short I can't remember the last time we played a ball through for our striker to run onto that wasn't a punt forward that got lucky.

What worries me for Saturday's game is that we do not seem to have a plan B other than bring on more forwards and continue lumping it into the box until something comes off. After Derby went to 1-1 it looked to be going one way without some good fortune on our part and ultimately did.

We do not seem to have an attacking intent about us at this stage of the season that we had early on in those first 10 games or so.
I would love to see us go two up top against Hull and leave nothing to chance and say that we gave it a real go than trying to nick a 1-0 set piece victory and limping to a drawer or a narrow defeat.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Earnshaw and Chopra were two lightning quick, short little terriers. Those types of strikers don't seem to exist in the game as much as they used to. Now it's more about filling midfield with players in a more defensive type of system. Not many clubs seem to have partnerships up front, either.

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Chicarito and Defoe are the last of that breed at the top level off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Are we, as a club, one of the best in terms of converting expected goals? My feeling is that we tend to take our chances more often than teams take them against us.

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I wouldn't say so, we generate a good number of chances and they are of generally a high quality, as a team we've been at the top alongside wolves all season and that has been reflected by our league position.