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John McDonnell gave a good interview on Marr this morning, the main thing to come out of it was that the press did a number on Corbyn for the last 4 years.
The question is will the press ever allow a left wing Labour party to win a General Election in the UK in the future ?
https://twitter.com/LuckyHeronSay/st...34887806898176
Another Labour politician who does not get what the electorate has just told his party.
He got it alright, he was self critical but the bottom line is the press has done a number on Labour for years, what can be done about that unfairness ?, I thought Labours manifesto was very good but the people that own and run the media did a number on Corbyn as they would with any left of centre Labour leader.
Apart from 1997, the large majority of the mainstream press has been against Labour since I started voting in 1974 - Labour have won five elections since then. The media may have been a factor in Labour's defeat, but it was a small one and it seems Corbyn and his army of loyalists are thrashing around trying to find a scapegoat when, to a large extent, they should be looking at themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
I thought that the ideas in the manifesto were really good as well. If maybe one in three of those ideas had been presented this time around by a more credible leader, things may have turned out differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Blaming the press is like living in Wales and moaning about the rain.
I thought it the best manifesto I've ever seen and I'm incredulous the majority of the country didn't vote for it. Inevitably, it was nothing to do with the manifesto though, we have followed the USA scourge and elections now are Presidential popularity contests. McDonnell and Corbyn are right on this.
This was not a "normal" General Election where the content of manifestos had a major bearing on the outcome though. A general election was Johnson/Cummings favoured tool from the former's coronation. They rationalised quite rightly that the opposition parties would split the Remain vote and they would hoover up the well of discontent that Brexit was a logjam caused by opposition within and outwith the Tory party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
If McDonnell and Corbyn have suddenly woken up to the fact that Party Leadership is a key determinant in a sizeable proportion of the population when it comes to casting their vote then that is another reason we are well shot of them.
McDonnell and Corbyn as far as a lot of the electorate particularly English people are concerned come with baggage that the English media went on and on about, terrorist sympathisers, Marxists, get rid of the Queen etc etc - sensational headlines, damning the pair of them, I actually agree with them on all those things the media crucify them on, so what can one do ?, not stand up for what one believes in or something.
Compared with the 2017 election Labour lost 2.6 million votes. The Tories gained 270k but the Lib Dems has 1.3 million more votes for one fewer seat and the SNP gained 250k. Plaid Cymru had 13k less. The rest of the difference is probably in the 650k votes for the Brexit party and the stay at homes in a 1.5% lower turnout.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
So quite possibly half the Labour loss could have been the Guardian reading squad that ran to the Lib Dems in their droves rather than those apparently so brainwashed by the right wing press that they did not see Corbyn for the visionary he is.
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veg1960
You can't promise to give 'everything' for free and by the end, Corbyn was throwing away freebies like a cheap plate seller down Porthcawl.
So many people felt he, McDonnell and Abbott would have bankrupt the country.
Corbynista's can shout and scream that that is rubbish, but the electorate has given them an absolute thrashing.
People didn't trust those three, or Corbynism as far as they could throw them. Look at the vile Laura Pidcock, seen as a future leader of Labour.
Voted out of North West Durham.
Bring back the likes of her at your peril.
There is NO place for the likes of her in modern politics.
Finally, democracy and the electorate won the day.
It was a monumental experience and I am so proud of the British people who voted for Democracy.
Something that Parliament and the Supreme Court did their best to reject.
This has restored my faith in the Great British public to vote with the integrity, that so many of our Parliamentarians seem to lack.
I hope this election is a watershed moment in British politics, whereby the parties actually listen to the electorate, instead of being such self serving, arrogant MP's.
The public has spoken.
Listen.
Learn.
Let's have better opposition.
Let's have better politics.
Let's have a better future.
Talk us through the bit where the Supreme Court rejected democracy again?Quote:
Originally Posted by JDerrida
Its the Overton window.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDerrida
As Chomsky noted ''The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.''
This is kind of the nub of it in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
I think we probably share similar underlying political principles.
Personally, I believe in the majority of the concepts contained in Labours manifesto. I don't for a second believe that the majority of UK voters are going to go for it - especially when the vision is being sold by an old bloke squinting at the camera through wonky glasses.
I feel a bit bad typing that last bit as appearances shouldn't matter, but when it comes to elections they do.
I know it's going to be unpopular with some, but I believe Labour should decide what is electorally achievable, and stick to that.
Sticking by one's principles is laudable, but what help is that to some poor bugger spending the night in a cardboard box.
In order to implement left of centre policy you have to be in government
We need a charismatic , media savvy moderate leader without a past that could be picked apart by the right wing media
We had corbyn , so we got battered
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veg1960
Trump showed how to beat the press and the opposition, and deliver policies that are good for the people, but you have to be a bit of a Kent to succeed. Now 52% of the country love him, which is higher than Obama at this stage of his presidency, and they are in the middle of trying to impeach him! :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Oooh look it's the turn every thread into Trumpton guy! However for those people more interested in facts than propaganda here is the website that condenses all the polls not just Rasmussen into a tracker of popularity and unpopularity and uses that to compare previous Presidencies using like for like comparisons!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...roval-ratings/
It's the perfect comparison, and Corbyn just didn't have what it takes to succeed, even though they faced an identical situation. It should be noted that the American economy didn't collapse as predicted, in fact they probabaly now have the best economy in living memory regarding jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
Also, I would have thought that the love of Trump gluey talks about would equate to strongly approving of him, yet that figure from a polling organisation which constantly reports higher popularity figures than others shows that his strongly disapprove ratings have been higher in all but three of the daily polls they've done this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._index_history
So, it's completely untrue to claim that 52 per cent love Trump - all this from someone who assures us he only deals in facts :shrug:
If you are right he will lose in 2020, it's easily measurable. But it doesn't take away from the fact that if you have a timid demeanor or you are just too nice, you will never beat the propaganda machine. Miliband and and Corbyn are proof of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Who's talking about 2020? My message is solely on the subject you brought up - that is, Trump's approval ratings in December 2019 and your claim, not backed by any evidence I can find, that 52 per cent currently "love" him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Also, why do you have to be a c*nt to succeed if over half the voters love you?
The last poll I saw had him on 52% approval.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
To beat the dirty tricks, the press and the organised propaganda campaigns. People are very easily manipulated!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Poor Bob....how touching. As WB will tell you whatiffery, obfuscation, distortion and innuendo have long since replaced facts in the armoury of the modern social media warrior! Good luck getting an answer to your question!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Says the resident Trump Russia Collusion propagandist, but now we know you were talking BS, due to the confirmation that your Steele Dossier was a complete hoax! :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
Top interview on Marr though. The Prosecution rests!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I agree that it is no good feeling right and virtuous if that means Labour never holding governmental power.
Labour have to be in government to make the changes they want to see - for the benefit of the majority of the people.
I also agree that is more achievable with a charismatic leader with very good communication skills and not too much baggage that provides an easy target to enemies. Corbyn certainly did not tick all those boxes. He is mild mannered, avoids conflict and has a long history as a campaigner and rebel that was used and misused to vilify him.
But Labour did not get battered in 2017 when all that was also true. Didn't win, but despite playing into the wind, uphill and with their laces tied together by the media and the Labour right, they got 41% of the vote and denied the Tories a majority.
There are many reasons for Labour's failure in 2019, and I agree with some of the ones put forward in recent posts in this thread and others. Corbyn's strengths were less in evidence this time and his weaknesses were attacked much harder - but that is only one cause.
I think still Brexit is the main reason. By appealing to both sides they ended up barely appealing to either. I'm not sure there was a 'get out of gaol card' that could have been played - even if Leavers and Remainers have spent 2 days saying it would all have been OK if only Corbyn had followed their particular preference.
There are three things that have changed in the past 4 years with a Corbyn leadership of the Labour Party: a new and generally active membership of over half a million; political debate and radical manifesto proposals that have broken apart the centre-right Thatcher-Blair consensus (same has happened on the right of politics) and the explosion (and sometimes democratisation) of digital and social media. The Labour civil war is still rumbling on - but I see some reasons to be positive.
Aye, but it does nothing for your reputation! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
That would be the Rasmussen Poll on 5 December which entirely by coincidence was the only recent poll that Trump tweeted about. Perhaps you saw it there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
Anyway here is a Fox News Poll that he hasn't tweeted about, though in fairness he no longer thinks they are the arselicks they used to be, that say that 50% of Americans want Trump impeached and removed. If apparently 52% of people approve of his there must be a load of confused Americans out there.
https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...d-be-impeached
That said if you were to discount that low accuracy rated poll and take the five38 stuff posted earlier that has a disapproval rating of 53% then things become a little more rational.
Surely you aren't taking this impeachment stuff seriously after you just got your arse served to you on a plate regarding the Steele Dossier & Trump Russia Collusion hoaxes? Geeze, you are a glutton for punishment. Do you believe in Father Christmas too? :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
You seem to have retreated into an ever dwindling set of repetitive cliches whenever your regular inaccuracies are challenged. Do you still think that Trump has an approval rating of 52% that is higher than Obama's at this stage of his Presidency now you have had a chance to consider the evidence that Bob and I posted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
My take on the new parliament.
.Johnson's bullshit will unravel.The next parliament will be a 4 and a bit unless he wants to risk another December election.
Hes got to sort Brexit.Find 30000 nurses.Bare in mind you need a degree to become a nurse.
Build 40 hospitals and bring bring 1000s of jobs to the poorest areas of the U.K which voted Tory
Spot on Labour seems are still in denial and sone on CCMB , its not the medias fault its the lack of aspiration, imagination, appeal, and the dislike of dated left politics that cost them four ( not one ) elections.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDerrida
They are simply not clever enough, too trapped in the old dogma , the public are not fools , they see through false dawns and promises , even the many WASPI women ,students and working class northeners leavers didnt fall for their falsehoods and shallow unthinkable offers.
This is now four election failures, the penny must drop soon surely?
This one though is the biggest
mess how will they bet a net gain of 123 seats at the next election .
Corbyn, Momentum, McDonald, and Abbott have brought Labour (perhaps that was the plan) in doing so its has set upon us , ten years of Tory rule
Just imagine if the bloody Tories fix the NHS , and give the North a better infrastructure , they duly deserve.
Does Labour actually realise the North is way beyond the Watford Gap
Johnson and Cummings have played the other parties like a fiddle since September.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
Labour has come up with some rather good radical manifesto's its the Conservatives that are the ones that have come up with bland uninspiring manifesto's.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars