But now Johnson is a “war leader”, is anyone bothered? It’s all “fluff” after all isn’t it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60911798
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But now Johnson is a “war leader”, is anyone bothered? It’s all “fluff” after all isn’t it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60911798
Just listening to John Curtice on radio 4. Apparently the PM's personal ratings have improved to a point around where they were at the end of October, just before Patterson.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
It’s as if the past five months didn’t happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Peter
What did Cameron call him......Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
a greased piglet? Unbelievable!
I can remember reading a book by Hunter Davies in which he was given access to the Spurs squad circa 70/72 in which a eighteen or nineteen year old Steve Perryman had just broken into the team. Politics barely gets a mention, but I can remember Perryman being genuinely shocked when Davies told him that almost all of the squad were “apathetic Tories” based on what they’d told him because Perryman assumed they were all Labour supporters like him.
That phrase “apathetic Tories” stuck with me because it’s an adjective for this country - full of people who keep on voting Conservative until something happens to change their own comfortable existence - seems like we’re seeing more evidence of this in the case of law breaking (I wrongly called it rule breaking in the thread title) in Downing Street.
I think there is a bit of confirmation bias here TOBW. People tend to vote for parties for the same reasons; because it's good for them, their family, their community or their country. Lots of apathetic Labour voters around who do so out of habit and in many cases because it's good for their own comfortable existence. There really isn't some grand moral difference here, it's just people have different interpretations of who has the best policies.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
As for "party gate", as you know, I was less 'burn him at the stake' than most, but I do think he should have resigned and I said that on several occasions. Now, I think the time has passed and I don't think it would be that beneficial if he did. He has apologised and his brand has been rightly permanently damaged amongst everyone and I think there are more important things ongoing at the moment.
That said, it does rather depend what the Metropolitan police actually say and who they issue fines to, but generally speaking I've moved on.
I think half the country should be locked up for constantly breaking the rules and knowingly putting folk at risk , the fines would have solved the funding problems of the police ,but hey you never get what you wish for ?
So, you reckon half the country were having bring a bottle parties through the last nine months of 2020 and for most of 2021? I must have been among the other half then.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
It's always amused me how so many right wingers on here talk about how they voted Labour in their youth seemingly as a way of trying to deflect attention away from who they vote for now. In the last election just over forty per cent of the country who voted opted for the Tories with many of those in certain parts of the country who did so happy to shout it from the rooftops. However, there were also the "usual suspects", the thirty per cent, at least, who always vote Conservatives who are what is known as "quiet Conservatives" who do not make a point of telling people who they vote for - in fact, some of them probably tell themselves that they won't vote Tory this time, but once they get in that polling booth when push comes to shove, they always put their x in the Conservative box.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Actually, I'm wrong to say they always do it, because, as I mentioned above, some of them were left wing in their youth, but they soon "matured" and realised what life was really like. That being the case then, why are so many of them seemingly so keen to establish their left wing credentials from early in their lives? Surely it cannot be a sense of guilt and some embarrassment that they know their vote is now cast purely in self interest for the "what's in it for me" party can it?
The modern day Conservative party voter has to be prepared to "move on" from all sorts of cock ups, PR disasters and law breaking these days - how else could you justify voting for them if you stopped and looked back at all of the scandals the party and their leader have been involved in since December 2019?
You say there's no difference between the two parties, so why is that I feel morally superior to anyone who still supports the Conservative party and this Government in particular - it's reached the stage where it's becoming hard to even justify supporting them on the grounds of self interest unless you're one of a favoured few.
This doesn't read like a response to the points I was making really.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I have no idea why you feel morally superior to others, but thats not a good thing because you probably aren't and it's probably a sign to look for more evidence as to why people vote why they do. I'm sure part of the reason may be why many people voted Labour in 2017 and 2019 despite having grave reservations about Jeremy Corbyn. People aren't looking for perfection, they are trying to find the best of realistically two options.
I wasn't talking about this, but as it happens, I was very left-wing in my youth, as a paid up member of a far-left party. I regularly bought the Morning Star. I don't regret it, I learnt a lot. I'm open minded on who to vote for now and consider myself a centrist liberal - needless to say that includes criticising left-wing politics so you get characterised as far-right, but that kind of distortion of reality just reinforces that left-wing politics isn't for me anymore.
I also don't think the two parties are the same - I'm never someone who says "they are all the same", although as it happens, I think the reality of governance means a great many of the decisions made would be very similar as thats how the real world works.
No, what I said was that peoples reasoning for how they vote is broadly the same, in that they want whats best for themselves, their family, their community or the country. Characterising those who vote differently as having radically different motives or morals is not much different than characterising those of a different religion of being the same. There's patterns of difference, sure, but most people are just trying to get on in life and live in a successful country.
I feel morally superior to many people these days because I struggle to see why so many of them are prepared to forgive essentially bad, selfish people anything if they represent the Conservative or Republican parties (I realise there are bad people in more liberal parties as well) but I agree that it’s not a healthy viewpoint to have. I’ve lived my life to a set of morals though that I feel are based on fairness and decency and it surprises and disappoints me that other, fundamentally decent people are prepared to, it seems, back the likes of Trump and Johnson no matter what they say or do. If they are prepared to do that, then I can at least rest easy in the knowledge that I’m not doing anything to keep such people in their positions of power, hence my feeling of moral superiority - this is something that is well beyond just party politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Yeah, I mean we all have different opinions on things, but feeling morally superior isn't a great look and I suspect doesn’t feel good. In terms of morals, forgiveness is actually up there amongst the finest traits you can have. :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Also, I don’t think it’s wise or useful to clump Trump and Johnson in together. Both very different people and whatever else you think, Johnson is a liberal in the true sense of the word. It’s obvious why some choose to tie them together, but I don’t think it’s accurate at all – baffling hair styles aside.
Also, bear in mind many Conservative voters don’t like Boris Johnson, so just as it’s unfair to tar all Labour voters with the antisemitism of Jeremy Corbyn, so it is unfair to tar all Tory voters with the lying of Boris Johnson.
https://www.conservativehome.com/the...stays-top.html
My profoundly held belief is that there is good and bad in all parties, just as there are in all genders, religions, sexualities etc. Aside from some extreme examples, such as the BNP or Communists (whose voters no doubt still love their families etc are not wholly bad) political party support is not a good way in which to align a moral compass. Indeed, forming an opinion of people based on party politics is in fact a historically awful way of doing it –many people have been put to death or otherwise had their life chances ruined for it.
I perfectly well understand people’s moral objections to Johnson with his lying, affairs, sometimes offensive, laissez-faire approach to things etc. In contrast to that I do think he was absolutely morally right on honouring the referendum result and I think he is fairly praised by Ukraine on his response there, and some of the lying accusations are a little hyperbolic…nonetheless, I understand. However, ultimately if someone believes that despite someones lack of moral purity, their leadership or their party would still make a better government and make things better for their kids or country or whatever else, then that is the over-riding moral objective. The archbishop of canterbury may be a moral authority, but who is more likely to give my kids better opportunities in life etc?
It’s not easy applies morals to politics, but I think it’s best to acknowledge we all have slightly different approaches, but fundamentally all want the best for the country and it’s people