Do you think this lot had an effect on the Brexit vote outcome?

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/...avourite-here/

For what it's worth, I reckon they did in promoting an image that the EU were the epitome of political correctness gone mad.

So glad the BBC don't get involved in propaganda :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

So glad the BBC don't get involved in propaganda :-)

---

:hehe:
Why did I read this with a mouth full of coconut oil? you trying to kill me? :hehe:

Indeed, of course the Press - as per article - have moulded our views on Europe. Especially the ragtops.
I'm sure the TV media have too.

What have the Romans ever done for us ..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Vim

Off the top of your head (no googling now) what are the top 10 GOOD things the EU do - in your opinion

---

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6455879.stm

A thousand apologies for using Google and its the BBC so it's not to be believed, but, on the slim chance that they might be telling the truth this time, this lot from ten years ago doesn't seem a bad place to start - certainly more substantial than the crap produced in the list I linked to in the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

And to get those things Bob, we need to give the EU NET 10 billion a year, open borders, ECJ sovereignty etc etc etc

Could we not agree to those things without having to do the above ? to be honest that is desperate bollox from the bbc on a daily express / princess diana scale

---

You asked for good things to have come from the EU, well the stuff in that article is directly linked to our membership of the EU and is far more relevant and genuine than the stuff (some which was courtesy of the BBC) in the other link I posted. If you want to talk about "desperate bollox", then the earlier one of the two links I posted is where you'll find it - for someone who is always talking about how many parties you've voted for and how open minded you were when it came to the referendum, you really do seem to have some deeply entrenched opinions.

^^
That's why I didn't waste any of my life replying to your 'demand'.
What a waste of time.

I'm not even particularly a Europhile.
Nor a committed remainer. Nor a Brexiteer.

I just see shambles and _nobody_ getting what they actually voted for. Or thought they had voted for..

Or perhaps I agree with WB , that the shambles _is_ the plan. Perhaps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Vim

Off the top of your head (no googling now) what are the top 10 GOOD things the EU do - in your opinion

---

Off the top of my head ,honest :
Minimum wage
Work time regulations .
Free movement of labour .
Collective trade deal.
Health and Safety uplift Paternity leave .
The ugliness of Farage and the right.
Bigotry exposed.
Huge Investment into Wales .
Ability of young people to move freely ,live and study where ever they liked .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Playing Devils advocate rather than Dick Advocate - could we not do that if we are outside the EU ? , we have the 'Living Wage' , we can introduce work time regulations as we see fit. Same goes for paternity leave (we do have our own Parliament I think) , it doesnt need the EU to expose bigotry - Hitler proved that and we werent in the EU then either.

Investment in Wales - definitely - in Wales we got given more than we put in , although that objective 1 funding (I think that's what its called) is ending or has ended - has there are poorer nations than Wales now.

Erasmus arrangement for students - no reason that cant continue post Brexit - if both sides agree to it. All I'm saying is that we dont need the EU to do things for us - we can do that ourselves. It would be a damn site easier for everyone if we were still in though.

---

Yes I'm sure we could have achieved all that on our own , question is though , would we have , without european legislation and push,or would successive governments spent or legislated elsewhere ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by life on mars

Yes I'm sure we could have achieved all that on our own , question is though , would we have , without european legislation and push,or would successive governments spent or legislated elsewhere ?

---

Exactly, we had plenty of opportunity to do it all before we joined the old Common Market in the 70s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Before the EEC Bob - there were lots of things that went on - that dont go on today in terms of equal pay, paternity leave. Whether it would have happened or not is a point of conjecture. The Living Wages wasnt an EU directive - but it was introduced, spending a % of GDP on foreign aid was not an EU directive either it came from the United Nations.

I think that is the whole point - we have a Parliament we can set our own laws. Most people dont mind the EU on trading level or even a common set of standards level, it's the lack of democracy, the direction of travel the EU is going , lack of democracy with regards to the EU commission etc that people dont like.

In the 1960's I'm sure there was sexism on an industrial level - but most Govts around the world have grown up a but since then - and most of those Govts were not in the EU

---

I would politely disagree ,I remember being involved in union organisation in the days where employers were awful , and employees condition were poor ( not so now ) , the European working laws have added some wonderful benefits to the employee ,without the resort to strikes , and Wales has had good investment that Westminster would never provide

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

I would counter that - in theory yes maybe the UK Govts (Labour, Conservative and Coalition) would have been this evil regime that did everything in its powers to hurt employees, women, put up taxes etc.

Or instead - in recent years - the raising of the income tax allowance to 12k, first the minimum wage, now the Living wage etc etc.

My only small point being is that it doesnt take an EU commission to make laws - we are capable and have been provenm to be capable of passing laws on our own - without having to bung the EU 10 Billion NET a year - that's all - just a simple point.

International container storage system - now used the world over - has eased shipping to an almost childlike ease. That didn't involve the EU, or a commissioner making the law etc, it was done as the person who invented it waived his copyright.

We dont need an additional 5 new countries to join the EU, we didnt want TTIP, an EU defence force or for France and the UK to concede their UN security council seats in favour an EU one etc etc etc.

All the countries of the European area need is a system where they can trade freely amongst one another, if they want to use their own 'wholesale traders' currency - that's up to them. We need a system that means corporations pay tax on the product sold where the customer lives - not in Ireland or Luxembourg - common sense in my book - but the EU wont change - so it seems the people will change it for them.

I had lunch yesterday with an ex work colleague - she works for a software company in the netherlands - for her - the feeling on the streets of Utrecht - is the same anti EU sentiment as there was here. Unless the EU addresses this - there will never be harmony - in my small humble and on the whole irrelevant opinion.

---

Your last para sums up why they have payed a hard game with May and co ,they must be terrified of us being successful, hence the spin , enticing in Labour comment , I think they want the divorce bill and add on' s to be so terrifying, that others like Holland would not consider going there .

I voted to stay in , however I am beginning to doubt it as I view in real timd the hierarchy make up and
Its brow beating , it's very big brother and bullish ,run by two countries Germany and France.

I still disagree on the points of employee law and Welsh investment though .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ninianclark

Not at all Bob, If we could live in a Europe pre Masstricht - that would be my preferred option. I lived and worked in an EU country, and I had to apply to live there, prove that there was no other national that could do the job, register with the Police as an alien etc

As for that list - lets take a few examples :-

EASY TRAVEL - really? - I still travel using my passport, I still have to show my passport, other countries outside the EU still manage to travel to and from the UK

LIVING ABROAD - sure I can go and live in Spain, just like the Spanish can live here - would be a lot better for both nations if that was controlled though.

EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION - Cant our UK parliament set a law re equal pay ? - we dont need someone else to tell us to do that.

PAID LEAVE - Same as above - can the UK parliament set the same law

CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS - market forces, Skype , whatsapp put an end to that, I know the EU passed a law about it as well.

Im not anti EU - we just need less of the politics, Im in favour of common standards, just like we have a common shipping container system now that every nation uses. Martin Schultz yesterday suggested that by 2025 he wants to see 1 EU and any member state that doesnt want it should leave like the UK. It's that direction of mindset I dont like and if push comes to shove then so be it - reluctantly.
apologies for any typos I'm on a bumpy train, with very little signal

---

The UK do control their own borders, we aren't part of the Schengen agreement and aren't bound by EU legislation

https://fullfact.org/europe/border-security-eu/
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...on.pdf#page=14

On the original point, I doubt we'd have a referendum if it weren't for the likes of the Daily Mail and The Sun