Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You can't help yourself
Imagine you on Question Time they would be running down from the audience to shut you up
Oh god tory boy is off again please put him in a box back stage
You are the capitalist version of Tony Benn , all guff and nonsense better left in library books
This is ironic coming from you.
Not all governments that provide education, housing or healthcare are socialist Sludge.
It's not hard to understand. It's a statement of fact.
Now stop shouting at me!
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
This is ironic coming from you.
Not all governments that provide education, housing or healthcare are socialist Sludge.
It's not hard to understand. It's a statement of fact.
Now stop shouting at me!
Stop your cobblers
The NHS was created by people of Liberal and Labour ideals
It certainly wasn't your bunch of snake oil salesmen
I am certain that when sunak says WE are the party of the nhs he's doing it to get on the front pages because apart from you no fegger believes him or them
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Stop your cobblers
The NHS was created by people of Liberal and Labour ideals
It certainly wasn't your bunch of snake oil salesmen
I am certain that when sunak says WE are the party of the nhs he's doing it to get on the front pages because apart from you no fegger believes him or them
As usual you view everything in as one-eyed fashion as possible.
But the fact remains. Just because a government spends money on healthcare or education etc it doesn't make it a socialist govt.
Despite your near endless moaning, the current govt is spending more on healthcare than any previous govt.
Does that mean we currently have a socialist govt?
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
As usual you view everything in as one-eyed fashion as possible.
But the fact remains. Just because a government spends money on healthcare or education etc it doesn't make it a socialist govt.
Despite your near endless moaning, the current govt is spending more on healthcare than any previous govt.
Does that mean we currently have a socialist govt?
No it means that the population is getting older , we are living longer and the population is increasing
This year on year , biggest spending nonsense is all a load of cobblers
Like the covid rescue plan the Tories don't spend because they care they spend at the minimum level to provide skeleton services because if they didn't there would be rioting in the streets
They are not spending because they are nice and kind and care
The Tories are only concerned with themselves
Old school one nation Tories who provided housing and healthcare for their workers were philanthropists
The typical tory since Thatcher wants everyone screwed into the ground and low taxation
But the right to complain about crap healthcare and services for the elderly .....which they have failed to fund
I hope you get absolutely leathered at the election and are out of power till my toes turn up it's the only way of ensuring a slight reduction on your thatcherite I done good nonsense on here
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
No it means that the population is getting older , we are living longer and the population is increasing
This year on year , biggest spending nonsense is all a load of cobblers
Like the covid rescue plan the Tories don't spend because they care they spend at the minimum level to provide skeleton services because if they didn't there would be rioting in the streets
They are not spending because they are nice and kind and care
The Tories are only concerned with themselves
Old school one nation Tories who provided housing and healthcare for their workers were philanthropists
The typical tory since Thatcher wants everyone screwed into the ground and low taxation
But the right to complain about crap healthcare and services for the elderly .....which they have failed to fund
I hope you get absolutely leathered at the election and are out of power till my toes turn up it's the only way of ensuring a slight reduction on your thatcherite I done good nonsense on here
So in summary..
Tories don't spend on public services - they are bad people.
Tories do spend on public services - they are bad people.
I think even you, perhaps in calmer moments will realise the massive weakness in your argument.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
So in summary..
Tories don't spend on public services - they are bad people.
Tories do spend on public services - they are bad people.
I think even you, perhaps in calmer moments will realise the massive weakness in your argument.
That's correct
Utter t wats
If they didn't spend there would be a revolution but Evan as it is they still manage to be evil gits
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
That's correct
Utter t wats
If they didn't spend there would be a revolution but Evan as it is they still manage to be evil gits
Okay, gotcha!
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Cutting through everything else said. James - you know yourself that this 'record spending' nonsense that is wheeled out constantly is lowest common denominator politics, especially when taking into account population demographics and most of all recently inflation. You need about one braincell to pair that with 'highest tax burden' to see what is really happening, socialism for the insanely/generationally wealthy and shit for everyone else.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Okay, gotcha!
No you havnt
You are a tory
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
No you havnt
You are a tory
As I said Sludgey I'm just going to read all of your posts now imagining them as you shouting them into a half empty pint. It helps.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Cutting through everything else said. James - you know yourself that this 'record spending' nonsense that is wheeled out constantly is lowest common denominator politics, especially when taking into account population demographics and most of all recently inflation. You need about one braincell to pair that with 'highest tax burden' to see what is really happening, socialism for the insanely/generationally wealthy and shit for everyone else.
Not really. UK health spending was about £150bn pre covid. It's now well over £200bn. An increase of a third inil a few years. Completely unprecedented, and also unsustainable really
I don't see this 'socialism for the rich' argument. The top rate of tax is higher than it was
I also know numerous people in very normal jobs who would be completely ruined without furlough etc, so I don't see how that means theyve been treated like shit?
The reality is Covid Fkd our and every other countries economies, whilst also severely damaging social fabric, all at a time when public spending soared. None of that free stuff was really free.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
As I said Sludgey I'm just going to read all of your posts now imagining them as you shouting them into a half empty pint. It helps.
Well know your place then
I don't dribble
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Not really. UK health spending was about £150bn pre covid. It's now well over £200bn. An increase of a third inil a few years. Completely unprecedented, and also unsustainable really
I don't see this 'socialism for the rich' argument. The top rate of tax is higher than it was
I also know numerous people in very normal jobs who would be completely ruined without furlough etc, so I don't see how that means theyve been treated like shit?
The reality is Covid Fkd our and every other countries economies, whilst also severely damaging social fabric, all at a time when public spending soared. None of that free stuff was really free.
You think the rich pay income tax? Let's start by not pitting working people against each other. I made it pretty clear who I was talking about.
Regarding the nhs, I don't think you are taking into account inflation since 2019. Obviously not an exact science but at a basic level something which cost 10£ in 2019 will now cost roughly 25% more. Then add in demographic changes and population growth and that astounding increase in funding looks a bit more like the minimum required to keep the service almost afloat.
Furlough is often leant upon as an example of how 'generous' the government is. It's silly really because unless the way wealth and income derived from investments is changed soon, the debt created by furlough will be paid for by the lower living standards of generations to come, which I don't think is a good thing.
At the time I felt like I was the only person on this board who was skeptical as to whether furlough to the level it was provided was a good use of public funds, despite the near worldwide consensus, I still remain skeptical today. Furlough was primarily an effort to pause BAU until the economy could 'reopen' not to help people pay their bills, that was abundantly clear when the level of support was compared to UC.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I don't see this 'socialism for the rich' argument. The top rate of tax is higher than it was
Headline tax rates are only one part of the picture. It doesn't reflect the reality. The very rich manage to pay very little tax - although they do pay out big fees to their accountants!
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/39/3/406/7245704
On top of that you have a benefits system that provides public subsidies to employers for low wages, and landlords for high rents.
Then you have a history of privatisations that takes assets from the public to enrich a layer of shareholders (OK - pension funds too, but....) where profits are privatised and losses are socialised.
And a history of public funding for infrastructure and skills (especially in the health and engineering sectors) that provide massive public subsidies for private profit - made worse by recent examples of public contracts (not just the NHS through Covid) going to overseas multinationals (paying for their dividends and executive salaries) or blue rosette mates on the make.
'Socialism for the rich' seems to be an apt description.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Headline tax rates are only one part of the picture. It doesn't reflect the reality. The very rich manage to pay very little tax - although they do pay out big fees to their accountants!
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/39/3/406/7245704
On top of that you have a benefits system that provides public subsidies to employers for low wages, and landlords for high rents.
Then you have a history of privatisations that takes assets from the public to enrich a layer of shareholders (OK - pension funds too, but....) where profits are privatised and losses are socialised.
And a history of public funding for infrastructure and skills (especially in the health and engineering sectors) that provide massive public subsidies for private profit - made worse by recent examples of public contracts (not just the NHS through Covid) going to overseas multinationals (paying for their dividends and executive salaries) or blue rosette mates on the make.
'Socialism for the rich' seems to be an apt description.
I wish I could pen a reposte to the evils of enforced capitalism in this style
But it takes brains
So I am back in the loft
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
You think the rich pay income tax? Let's start by not pitting working people against each other. I made it pretty clear who I was talking about.
Regarding the nhs, I don't think you are taking into account inflation since 2019. Obviously not an exact science but at a basic level something which cost 10£ in 2019 will now cost roughly 25% more. Then add in demographic changes and population growth and that astounding increase in funding looks a bit more like the minimum required to keep the service almost afloat.
Furlough is often leant upon as an example of how 'generous' the government is. It's silly really because unless the way wealth and income derived from investments is changed soon, the debt created by furlough will be paid for by the lower living standards of generations to come, which I don't think is a good thing.
At the time I felt like I was the only person on this board who was skeptical as to whether furlough to the level it was provided was a good use of public funds, despite the near worldwide consensus, I still remain skeptical today. Furlough was primarily an effort to pause BAU until the economy could 'reopen' not to help people pay their bills, that was abundantly clear when the level of support was compared to UC.
Depends what you mean by the rich. But yeah, they do.
If we are talking about the super rich, you and I are ptobably on the same page. I most definitely dont bang the drum for privatisation, globalisation or tax avoidance.
Furlough saved millions of livlihoods. But it came at a cost.
The NHS is receiving more money than before Covid, even accounting for inflation. Thats just a reality. It doesn't mean we live in a socialist country, it doesn't mean acknowledging that means you support the govt more widely. It also may or may not be enough money, but it is the reality
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Headline tax rates are only one part of the picture. It doesn't reflect the reality. The very rich manage to pay very little tax - although they do pay out big fees to their accountants!
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/39/3/406/7245704
On top of that you have a benefits system that provides public subsidies to employers for low wages, and landlords for high rents.
Then you have a history of privatisations that takes assets from the public to enrich a layer of shareholders (OK - pension funds too, but....) where profits are privatised and losses are socialised.
And a history of public funding for infrastructure and skills (especially in the health and engineering sectors) that provide massive public subsidies for private profit - made worse by recent examples of public contracts (not just the NHS through Covid) going to overseas multinationals (paying for their dividends and executive salaries) or blue rosette mates on the make.
'Socialism for the rich' seems to be an apt description.
We would probably be in complete agreement on the role of the super rich and also probably on privatisations, although I am much less dogmatic on that in general.
In a globalised world, and a Europe of free movement of wealth etc, how do you propose we pin the wealth down more, without losing it to other parts of the world?
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Depends what you mean by the rich. But yeah, they do.
If we are talking about the super rich, you and I are ptobably on the same page. I most definitely dont bang the drum for privatisation, globalisation or tax avoidance.
Furlough saved millions of livlihoods. But it came at a cost.
The NHS is receiving more money than before Covid, even accounting for inflation. Thats just a reality. It doesn't mean we live in a socialist country, it doesn't mean acknowledging that means you support the govt more widely. It also may or may not be enough money, but it is the reality
'socialism for the insanely/generationally wealthy' is pretty clear that I don't mean normal working families living in the home counties.
Re: Who Will Realy Want To Help Refugees
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
We would probably be in complete agreement on the role of the super rich and also probably on privatisations, although I am much less dogmatic on that in general.
In a globalised world, and a Europe of free movement of wealth etc, how do you propose we pin the wealth down more, without losing it to other parts of the world?
I think we need to work out what we are losing first..
