Do some Cornish people have a closer affinity with Wales than England?

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Originally Posted by ken smith

Plymouth isn't in Cornwall, and is also an EDL type town where they hate everything not English from my experience.

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That's over a quarter of a million people stereotyped then.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Indeed. Most of us are descendants of Celts, Frisians, Jutes, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Romans (who consisted of a multitude of people from beyond way beyond Rome and what is now Italy), Normans, French and many other people's who came over from the European mainland at some juncture. Our DNA is incredibly mixed and purists are bound to be disappointed if they send off for a DNA test. (I've just done one for another reason entirely).

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I consider myself Welsh because I was born in Cardiff but only 2 of my great grandparents were born in Wales

Cardiff X 2
Devon X 2
Forest of Dean X 3
Worcester X 1

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

That's over a quarter of a million people stereotyped then.

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Throw in Stoke, Burnley, Bolton, Preston, Blackpool, Barnsley, Carlisle, Fleetwood, Mansfield, Chesterfield and your closer to 2 million.

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Originally Posted by Cyncoed Slumdog

I went there on honeymoon hundreds of years ago and I remember quite a few locals supporting Mebyon Kernew, the Cornish Independence Party.
I had assumed it was no more but it appears to be still going -
https://www.mebyonkernow.org/

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The answer to the question is "yes" as Mebyon Kernow have strong links with Plaid Cymru. Some of their councillors have spoken at Plaid conferences and MK's leader, Dick Cole, is friendly with many Welsh nationalists, including people who are not in Plaid Cymru. I once published a piece written by Dick Cole on my now defunct blog.

https://www.mebyonkernow.org/news/tag.php?tag=plaid cymru

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Originally Posted by Llanedeyrnblue

I consider myself Welsh because I was born in Cardiff but only 2 of my great grandparents were born in Wales

Cardiff X 2
Devon X 2
Forest of Dean X 3
Worcester X 1

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Self-identity is a fascinating subject. I remember seeing the episode of 'Who Do You Think You Are' in which the black activist and film director, who had always campaigned on 'black issues' and against any remnants of slavery, where he is informed that it is highly likely that he descended from a white slave owner.

And I remember reading in a German magazine about a guy who was born around 1945 to an unmarried mother in what became East Germany. He lived with the stigma of being illegitimate and different but embraced his identity of being part American, his mother having stated that she was raped by a GI during the war. The young lad collected as much paraphernalia about the USA as possible and even, if I remember, rightly, got hold of a beaten up old American car when he was old enough to drive. However, on her death bed (and this was after East Germany had shed the yoke of the Soviet Union) she admitted to him that the person who raped her was a Russian soldier. It is highly possible that she was reticent to point the finger at the Russians at the time.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Where did the Celts come from before they arrived on these shores though?

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I thought the Celts came out of Eastern Europe and then their culture spread across the whole continent and parts of modern Turkey.

The main early cultural centres that archaeologists have explored were around the Alps - Hallstadt and La Tene from 800 to 100 BC - but that the Greeks at the time of the Trojan Wars about 1200 BC were supposedly Celts too (Iron Age warrior elites who formed the original city states).

When I was much younger it was accepted that the Celts migrated across Europe and displaced the peoples they met. More recently I think the view has changed. Most historians and archaeologists now go for the integration theory, that Iron Age warriors and traders came to Britain from the continent in fairly small numbers and were assimilated by the indigenous Bronze Age people. The culture and the language changed because the Celts were dominant, but it is unlikely there was a mass migration and displacement.

Cornish-Welsh fusion from Gwenno!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rCeygWexyA

Have visited the place for years.

Whilst it has a distinctly different vibe to other parts of England it is still very much part of England and in my experience the locals on the whole feel English but also cornish. Similarly to how a Welsh person may feel Welsh and British.

Wouldn't say they at all identify more with Wales or other celtic regions but on the whole I have found them to be very warm people and largely welcoming. Of course tourism is a huge economic driver there so they probably just want my money.

It's a beautiful place though and definitely somewhere I would be happy to live, employment issues aside.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Indeed. Most of us are descendants of Celts, Frisians, Jutes, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Romans (who consisted of a multitude of people from beyond way beyond Rome and what is now Italy), Normans, French and many other people's who came over from the European mainland at some juncture. Our DNA is incredibly mixed and purists are bound to be disappointed if they send off for a DNA test. (I've just done one for another reason entirely).

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The rural Welsh and Cornish are genetically distinct apparently: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18489735

It's not as if any group or tribe was homogeneous anyway. Besides being a mix themselves they would have also swallowed up other people en route and recruited them voluntarily and forcibly. They would have also procreated with females of other tribes , whether it be via rape, kidnapping, slavery or just having an awareness that the gene pool need some variety.

Romans must have been in the minority in the Roman Empire.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's not as if any group or tribe was homogeneous anyway. Besides being a mix themselves they would have also swallowed up other people en route and recruited them voluntarily and forcibly. They would have also procreated with females of other tribes , whether it be via rape, kidnapping, slavery or just having an awareness that the gene pool need some variety.

Romans must have been in the minority in the Roman Empire.

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Given that Rome itself was such a melting pot of citizens/slaves/freedmen, many from other territories, this seems likely. Many emperors weren't Roman Italians either.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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Plymouth isn't in Cornwall though!

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

Did you know that ALL of what is now england and even part of southern scotland was entirely welsh/cornish...entierly ‘P’ celts?.

The settlers in Britanny were displaced refugees from the southwern part of our island, escaping from the saxons (saeson) who went on to occupy all of what is now known as england.

The english are mainly a germanic people and have only really been on the island for 1,500 years , which is relatively recent. There are trees older than that.

How that translates to the present day is probably inconsequential. I know that genetically the cornish are really celtic, they have very little gentic influence from the english. Culturally though , I imagine the state of their language would give the best insight into their cultural identity. Predominantly I’d say they consider themselves english.

I remember arriving in Plymouth ferry terminal the day england beat us in the euros and I think I’d have been asking for trouble or at least hassle walking around in my wales top. Not much sympathy would have been received.

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"The Celts weren't a homogeneous bunch despite the common roots of their languages; the Cornish are more genetically distant from the Welsh and the Scots than they are to certain English people."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/cornish.html

There is no such thing as a Celtic gene. The Celts were just a group of people across most of Europe that shared similar languages and culture. The name Celt came from Greek writers who described this particular group. The word Gal and derivatives are words which describe areas where this group settled such Galicia (Now part of Spain), Galatia (now part of Turkey) and of course Gaul. They also give the root to the word Gaelic/ Gallic etc.


Of interest, Paris is named after a Celtic tribe, as is Belgium. The names of Celtic tribes are also obvious in the names Kent, Scotland and Cornwall.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Where did the Celts come from before they arrived on these shores though?

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I think they/we came from different areas. I think the idea is that the celts in Britain and Ireland came from the Alpes....Switzerland that way. I think there might have been Iberian celts as well. But that would have been a few thousand years, if not more before the saxons and angles came over 'ere. A lot of welsh people are decendants of the orginal inhabitants of the island some 10,000 years ago after the last ice age.

There have been a number of different genetic studies (genome/mitochondrial) that have shown the Welsh especially to be markedly different other parts of the Island. That obviously depends on the part of Wales you are from though. West and North have obviously had fewer immigrants than the South East.

Before that India.

Before that Africa.

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Originally Posted by Trigger

Have visited the place for years.

Whilst it has a distinctly different vibe to other parts of England it is still very much part of England and in my experience the locals on the whole feel English but also cornish. Similarly to how a Welsh person may feel Welsh and British.

Wouldn't say they at all identify more with Wales or other celtic regions but on the whole I have found them to be very warm people and largely welcoming. Of course tourism is a huge economic driver there so they probably just want my money.

It's a beautiful place though and definitely somewhere I would be happy to live, employment issues aside.

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( employment issues aside) and their may lie current issues , there is poverty,lack of jobs , rich second home owners ,all eroding their identity.

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

There is no such thing as a Celtic gene. The Celts were just a group of people across most of Europe that shared similar languages and culture. The name Celt came from Greek writers who described this particular group. The word Gal and derivatives are words which describe areas where this group settled such Galicia (Now part of Spain), Galatia (now part of Turkey) and of course Gaul. They also give the root to the word Gaelic/ Gallic etc.


Of interest, Paris is named after a Celtic tribe, as is Belgium. The names of Celtic tribes are also obvious in the names Kent, Scotland and Cornwall.

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Indeed - but some people aspire to be pure....er.....mongrels.

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

There is no such thing as a Celtic gene. The Celts were just a group of people across most of Europe that shared similar languages and culture. The name Celt came from Greek writers who described this particular group. The word Gal and derivatives are words which describe areas where this group settled such Galicia (Now part of Spain), Galatia (now part of Turkey) and of course Gaul. They also give the root to the word Gaelic/ Gallic etc.


Of interest, Paris is named after a Celtic tribe, as is Belgium. The names of Celtic tribes are also obvious in the names Kent, Scotland and Cornwall.

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What about Pictogram ?

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

There is no such thing as a Celtic gene. The Celts were just a group of people across most of Europe that shared similar languages and culture. The name Celt came from Greek writers who described this particular group. The word Gal and derivatives are words which describe areas where this group settled such Galicia (Now part of Spain), Galatia (now part of Turkey) and of course Gaul. They also give the root to the word Gaelic/ Gallic etc.


Of interest, Paris is named after a Celtic tribe, as is Belgium. The names of Celtic tribes are also obvious in the names Kent, Scotland and Cornwall.

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And the names of Wales, Wallonia (now part of Romania), Wallachia and Cornwall are all cognate Roman terms, meaning Celts/outsiders/strangers.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Despite being a Cardiffian I have lived in a number of counties in the south west and feel at home here - and I even felt at home living in Germany and Scotland. My siblings have also lived abroad and have felt at home in Yorkshire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Devon, The Netherlands and Germany. There are beautiful places and people all around the UK and people's DNA is not drastically different on either side of a line drawn on a map at a particular juncture in history. It's also about what one brings to the party, as it were.

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I'm in agreement with the Taunting Blue Genie.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

And the names of Wales, Wallonia (now part of Romania), Wallachia and Cornwall are all cognate Roman terms, meaning Celts/outsiders/strangers.

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I put the brackets in the wrong place. They should have been after Wallachia, of course.

I thought the Cornish had more of an affinity with Brittany, or is the affinity felt greater from the French side these days?

Cornish people don't share Wales' predilection for voting Labour that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by The Bloop

I thought the Cornish had more of an affinity with Brittany, or is the affinity felt greater from the French side these days?

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In the Euros, I met several Bretons who had come to Wales games specifically to support Wales.