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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Where's the alternative plan ,it is so easy to sit on the sidelines and say that won't work ,or we are trying to protect jobs , its just populist soundbite, yes the government has made a pigs ear of this,however, whatever was proposed was always going to get kicked back.
Instead of short media grabbing soundbite statements , why doesnt Europe and /or the opposition actually publish an actual counter plan to the one on the table .
The onus is on the UK to make an alternative plan. I would say it's specifically on the elected MPs who are making a big deal about saying the UK will have a trillion pounds in the bank in a few years etc etc to come up with it.
But they won't and for very good reason.
The EU wants the UK to stay, so their best tactic is probably to let the UK repeatedly punch itself in the face until it sees sense.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
The EU bullying accusation seems at odds with the insistence that the EU need a deal as much as the UK does.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
The onus is on the UK to make an alternative plan. I would say it's specifically on the elected MPs who are making a big deal about saying the UK will have a trillion pounds in the bank in a few years etc etc to come up with it.
But they won't and for very good reason.
The EU wants the UK to stay, so their best tactic is probably to let the UK repeatedly punch itself in the face until it sees sense.
Seems like a one sided tactic,and not one of reason or fair mindeness, it reminds of my school yard days ,when one kept the ball and wouldn't give it back.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Where's the alternative plan ,it is so easy to sit on the sidelines and say that won't work ,or we are trying to protect jobs , its just populist soundbite, yes the government has made a pigs ear of this,however, whatever was proposed was always going to get kicked back.
Instead of short media grabbing soundbite statements , why doesnt Europe and /or the opposition actually publish an actual counter plan to the one on the table .
I can't think of any better definition of 'short media grabbing soundbite statement' than what Theresa May did yesterday.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Seems like a one sided tactic,and not one of reason or fair mindeness, it reminds of my school yard days ,when one kept the ball and wouldn't give it back.
But there isn't any equivalence between the two parties. The UK is seeking to have an arrangement with 27 countries and it's up to the EU if they consider any proposed arrangement as unacceptable. The UK position all the way through has been baffling to many observers on the continent.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Seems like a one sided tactic,and not one of reason or fair mindeness, it reminds of my school yard days ,when one kept the ball and wouldn't give it back.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">- Hello, I’d like to buy a unicorn please. <br>- Sorry, we don’t sell unicorns. <br>- But I promised one for my children. <br>- Sorry, sir. <br>- WELL THE BALL’S IN YOUR COURT NOW, ISN’T IT, MATE? <a href="https://t.co/RPVTsW1YGG">pic.twitter.com/RPVTsW1YGG</a></p>— Jonathan Coe (@jonathancoe) <a href="https://twitter.com/jonathancoe/status/1043173547726831616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
The EU bullying accusation seems at odds with the insistence that the EU need a deal as much as the UK does.
No it doesn't
If they can more than they can get by bullying you can be sure the EU will do it.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cyril evans awaydays
I am sure that when we start to negotiate trade deals with the US, China and India they will never seek to exploit the weakness of our position in the same way those nasty Europeans are doing!
Well of course they will.
And we should stand up to them as well.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lardy
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">- Hello, I’d like to buy a unicorn please. <br>- Sorry, we don’t sell unicorns. <br>- But I promised one for my children. <br>- Sorry, sir. <br>- WELL THE BALL’S IN YOUR COURT NOW, ISN’T IT, MATE? <a href="https://t.co/RPVTsW1YGG">pic.twitter.com/RPVTsW1YGG</a></p>— Jonathan Coe (@jonathancoe) <a href="https://twitter.com/jonathancoe/status/1043173547726831616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Why do people on both sides quote these bloody stupid analogies which bear no relation to what is going on?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But there isn't any equivalence between the two parties. The UK is seeking to have an arrangement with 27 countries and it's up to the EU if they consider any proposed arrangement as unacceptable. The UK position all the way through has been baffling to many observers on the continent.
But if as they say they want good relations with us they should be prepared to negotiate not just dictate.
A no scenario would not do them much good either.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Maybe you can explain it to me because I just don't see it.
Well for example their insistence that we couldn't even begin to discuss a trade deal until we had agreed how much we had to pay to leave.
I would have told them where to go at that stage.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Well for example their insistence that we couldn't even begin to discuss a trade deal until we had agreed how much we had to pay to leave.
I would have told them where to go at that stage.
Isn't that just a logical sequence of events in a situation like this? They aren't asking us to 'pay to leave', we have made budget commitments and have long term liabilities like pensions, clearly we have a choice whether to honour those or not. Based on that decision they then have a choice of whether they would like to work closely with us in the future.
We agreed to that structure for the negotiations many many moons ago, anything more recent?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
Why do people on both sides quote these bloody stupid analogies which bear no relation to what is going on?
This analogy sums up May's attitude now pretty well in my opinion.
She is more concerned with spinning a no deal as 'not our fault' than coming up with something coherent that doesn't breach red lines that were made quite clear more than 2 years ago
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But there isn't any equivalence between the two parties. The UK is seeking to have an arrangement with 27 countries and it's up to the EU if they consider any proposed arrangement as unacceptable. The UK position all the way through has been baffling to many observers on the continent.
Unfortunately for the sake of the future reputation and electability of the Tory party no deal has to be spun to be someone else's fault. Remember when they tried to blame remainer's negativity for everything that went wrong? :hehe: The public swallowed that whole and they will do the same with 'johnny foreigner is bullying us', it plays well to that little nationalist voice inside them.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Isn't that just a logical sequence of events in a situation like this? They aren't asking us to 'pay to leave', we have made budget commitments and have long term liabilities like pensions, clearly we have a choice whether to honour those or not. Based on that decision they then have a choice of whether they would like to work closely with us in the future.
We agreed to that structure for the negotiations many many moons ago, 8anything more recent?
If you were negotiating you'ld probably have told them
"£39 billion? Oh no we owe you more than that surely"
I'd hardly call last year many moons ago either!!
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elwood Blues
If you were negotiating you'ld probably have told them
"£39 billion? Oh no we owe you more than that surely"
I'd hardly call last year many moons ago either!!
and the hysterical ad hominem begins. How much do you think we owe?
Many moons in the context of the PM and her rabble of supporters in parliament and the press getting their knickers in a twist yesterday.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Here is how it went
Tory MP's and newspapers : Chequers is shit
EU : Chequers is shit
Tory MP's and newspapers : Bullies!
That is the parallel universe we have been transported to.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Here is how it went
Tory MP's and newspapers : Chequers is shit
EU : Chequers is shit
Tory MP's and newspapers : Bullies!
That is the parallel universe we have been transported to.
The Trump wannabe comparing it to a suicide vest hardly raised an eyebrow.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Let's crash out , I'm up for the fight , not being bullied by a group that is trying to strong arm a country because it had the audacity to say were leaving , its got bugger all to do with our awkwardness, or a poor plan , its about frightening the death out of others who might try it.
Crickey the latest plan is a soft version of Brexit , not perfect in anyway and that's not good enough, what a bloody awful job this must be ,there is no positive outcome whichever way you turn.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Let's crash out , I'm up for the fight , not being bullied by a group that is trying to strong arm a country because it had the audacity to say were leaving , its got bugger all to do with our awkwardness, or a poor plan , its about frightening the death out of others who might try it.
Crickey the latest plan is a soft version of Brexit , not perfect in anyway and that's not good enough, what a bloody awful job this must be ,there is no positive outcome whichever way you turn.
What fight are you up for?
Are you going to fight for the workers in Des's company to hang onto their jobs? And how are you proposing to do that?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Veg1960
What fight are you up for?
Are you going to fight for the workers in Des's company to hang onto their jobs? And how are you proposing to do that?
I wish I had the answer, what's your plan , as I see it , there is no deal unless we are forced into another referendum and the decesion is reversed.
And theres a lot of folk still going to vote out.
If we can't come up with a deal that is acceptable to the EU surely they should offer a solution , unless it's a case they don't have one ?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
I wish I had the answer, what's your plan , as I see it , there is no deal unless we are forced into another referendum and the decesion is reversed.
And theres a lot of folk still going to vote out.
If we can't come up with a deal that is acceptable to the EU surely they should offer a solution , unless it's a case they don't have one ?
To be honest, I don't have a solution. I don't think there is a sensible solution
I'm just hoping that Wales Bales is correct when he says we won't be allowed to leave
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Let's crash out , I'm up for the fight , not being bullied by a group that is trying to strong arm a country because it had the audacity to say were leaving , its got bugger all to do with our awkwardness, or a poor plan , its about frightening the death out of others who might try it.
Crickey the latest plan is a soft version of Brexit , not perfect in anyway and that's not good enough, what a bloody awful job this must be ,there is no positive outcome whichever way you turn.
What is the evidence of bullying?
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Veg1960
To be honest, I don't have a solution. I don't think there is a sensible solution
I'm just hoping that Wales Bales is correct when he says we won't be allowed to leave
I think it might all come down to leverage, whose got what on who.
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Re: Genuine question for leavers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
What is the evidence of bullying?
I'm getting a distinct sense of deja vu here.