Apology to Brexiters

I'm sure no one gives a crap, but I wanted to apologise to Brexiters (for my sake) as I got caught up with the hysteria in the referendum campaign and added to the voice from the remain camp about bigotry etc.

I was always on the fence on the matter but during the campaign I swung toward remain. This is due to a few things like - protecting my own self interest (I live in Berlin thanks to the free movement opportunity), worry about the economy, caught up in political correctness, media manipulation and thinking that the best way to fight for democracy was to to bypass what we have in Westminster. Oh and also a lack of education on the matter.

On this point about democracy and power to the people, the most important factor for me, I now realise how naive my thinking was. I regret the position I took. Anyway, I'm back on the fence now and leaning towards a Brexit position. Even if it might have a rubbish impact on my own life.

People are talking about a second referendum. I feel if there was another one (they won't give us that power again), I think the Brexit margin of victory could be even bigger.

I give a crap, I got quite involved in those arguments myself and got a bit wound up at some of the suggestions so I appreciate your apology, there is no shame in changing your view or realising you were wrong about something, better that than stick with a view out of stubborness, we are all human. :-)

Great OP. Cheers BitF :ayatollah:

When you say they will soon be joining the EU, you mean...?

We haven't yet seen the full impact of Brexit yet.

Luckily for you, any trade deal we are able to negotiate is likely to involve the free movement of people, so it should be a case of "business as usual" regarding immigration.

Of course, our economy may end being such that asylum seekers no longer want to come here anymore.

So they 'might one day' join the EU, not 'will soon'.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

I'm sure no one gives a crap, but I wanted to apologise to Brexiters (for my sake) as I got caught up with the hysteria in the referendum campaign and added to the voice from the remain camp about bigotry etc.

I was always on the fence on the matter but during the campaign I swung toward remain. This is due to a few things like - protecting my own self interest (I live in Berlin thanks to the free movement opportunity), worry about the economy, caught up in political correctness, media manipulation and thinking that the best way to fight for democracy was to to bypass what we have in Westminster. Oh and also a lack of education on the matter.

On this point about democracy and power to the people, the most important factor for me, I now realise how naive my thinking was. I regret the position I took. Anyway, I'm back on the fence now and leaning towards a Brexit position. Even if it might have a rubbish impact on my own life.

People are talking about a second referendum. I feel if there was another one (they won't give us that power again), I think the Brexit margin of victory could be even bigger.

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What's with the 'free movement' nonsense?

I lived and worked in Berlin in 1971 before Britain was in Europe. Not being politically linked to Europe didn't stop me from working in Germany and as I recall it didn't stop the Beatles and a host of other entertainers from working there either.

I voted Brexit, couldn't get to the polls quick enough, along with all my family and quite a few other people that I know. We were denied the opportunity of a vote about political union with other countries in mainland Europe and I've had to wait since 1975 to have my say in whether we should, or should not, be politically linked to Europe. I don't want political union I especially don't want a European Army or be told that I'm a European. I was a European before the Common Market, later the EU and nothing has changed and nothing will change when we are out of the political union.

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Originally Posted by Blue in the Face

I'm sure no one gives a crap, but I wanted to apologise to Brexiters (for my sake) as I got caught up with the hysteria in the referendum campaign and added to the voice from the remain camp about bigotry etc.

I was always on the fence on the matter but during the campaign I swung toward remain. This is due to a few things like - protecting my own self interest (I live in Berlin thanks to the free movement opportunity), worry about the economy, caught up in political correctness, media manipulation and thinking that the best way to fight for democracy was to to bypass what we have in Westminster. Oh and also a lack of education on the matter.

On this point about democracy and power to the people, the most important factor for me, I now realise how naive my thinking was. I regret the position I took. Anyway, I'm back on the fence now and leaning towards a Brexit position. Even if it might have a rubbish impact on my own life.

People are talking about a second referendum. I feel if there was another one (they won't give us that power again), I think the Brexit margin of victory could be even bigger.

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The CIA created the EU so that it would be easier for them to control our foreign policy. Even the Daily Telegraph admits that :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...iteers-discov/

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

If you live in Germany as a UK citizen with a UK passport - this wont change post Brexit. If anything changes it will mean going back to a pre Maastricht arrangement where if you want to work in Germany you can but you have to register with the Local Police / Govt and you wont be able to claim benefits unless you have paid tax in Germany - Im guessing you do that already - so no change.

I think a very large majority of EU citizens want to be able to control who comes in and out of their country both for economic , safety and dare I say it - cultural reasons.

Does anyone realise the current unemployment rate of the countries that will soon be joining the EU , Kosovo 33%, Montenegro 18% etc - I wonder where they will all go when the join :sherlock: , lets not even start with Turkey joining the EU via the proxy of 1million travel free visas.

And it seems in Germany Merkel is about to get a kicking in the elections.

You live in Germany - what is the general mood of the people re the EU etc ?

If Germany, France etc are so convinced by the current way the EU is working - then before they go any further - I wonder if they have the courage of their convictions to ask their electorate ? (I dont think they have)

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Sorry I took ages to reply Clark. Thanks for your comprehensive response. Really appreciated.

I'm just a bit concerned as my employer is in London but due to the nature of my work, I'm free to work remotely. I need to look into things, but I'm sure I have very little to worry about any time soon.

On your question what is the mood in Germany regarding the EU?

First I would have to relay a couple of things. I live in Berlin, which is very much un-representative of Germany. Also my social circles tend to revolve around the dominant types of folks that reside here which is lefties, or libertarians who think that they are lefties. So my Germanic viewpoint is very filtered and narrow in truth.

My perspective is that Germans seem to be very pro EU and I suppose perhaps that is not surprising. The EU gives Germany international clout it otherwise wouldn't have. Germany is dependent on it's manufacturing historically and the EU is geared to allow Germany to export efficiently. German banks also seem to have a lot of reach they might not otherwise have. Brexit seems to baffle a lot folks here, but perhaps this is because the narrative has always been here to not even question the EU. The technocratic nature of the EU's structure is a system which fits in well with the German psyche too.

There is also a huge difference with the UK in regard to housing. The speed of numbers coming into the UK compounding our inability to build affordable housing is an obvious argument to put across in favour of Brexit. Germany, generally speaking, hasn't had the same problem in the recent past with housing or popularity. In fact, things have been crazy cheap in Berlin up until a surge in popularity recently. This was a lot to do with there being no competition for places and an Ireland like situation with unoccupied housing. The culture here is to rent from huge private housing conglomerates rather than buy, so no one cares about the price of housing to buy. There are rent controls in place to make sure things don't spiral out control. But rising rents do seem to be the issue that most folks care about here, so this is likely to have an effect of political opinion soon if immigrant numbers become unmanageable. There is a massive Turkish population across Germany, the biggest Turkish population outside of their own country I think. So if Turkey were to join the EU, The immigration figures here could surge massively.

On the flip side of the German psyche are two big things that shape my perception. The first thing is the obvious apologetic nature of Germans when it comes to politics. WWII guilt is conditioned into folks here, so the automatic reaction is to reach for the politically correct opinion. This obviously is what shaped the unique reaction to the Syrian refugee crisis, but my personal opinion is that Germany was in a healthy position to help and was right do so. It's a complicated issue obviously. Perhaps there will be a massive backlash for Merkel in the elections next year. Quite possible.

Second thing on German psyche, and this is my own, slightly racist observation. There is a tendency toward a desire to be alpha or top dog. Not at a glance, but it seems to be a quiet and subliminal factor of German folks I come across. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I think this ties in with their bruised history, and perhaps goes deeper. It could be that my opinion is way off the mark here, but it's my honest observation none the less. Maybe this is a universally human thing. This psyche ties in again with how much international kudos and clout the EU gives Germany and perhaps ties in with some points made above. Or not, if I'm talking rubbish on this point.

One last slightly conspiratorial point. The powerhouse German banks. We saw in the Brexit debate just how much influence the banks have in all sectors of politics and media. I expect that the banks how for a long time thrown their weight around on the EU issue. Again, perhaps this is another factor as to why folks here are less Euro-sceptical than the Brits.

David Vincent's telegraph link is a very interesting read. All bits of history I knew but not voiced in that way.