Leaving the EU is being made much harder than it actually is.

The EU do not want us to leave because we make the whole thing financially viable. without Britain it will collapse faster.
At every turn they are stalling the talks and process.

The Government need to grab the issue fully and LEAVE.

Then and only then will the unelected undemocratic lunatics realise they have to talk to Britain constructively.

My patience with the EU is at an end. How much longer will the Government tolerate them?

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Originally Posted by AlwaysAway2

The EU do not want us to leave because we make the whole thing financially viable. without Britain it will collapse faster.
At every turn they are stalling the talks and process.

The Government need to grab the issue fully and LEAVE.

Then and only then will the unelected undemocratic lunatics realise they have to talk to Britain constructively.

My patience with the EU is at an end. How much longer will the Government tolerate them?

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Which version of the news do you follow?

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Originally Posted by AlwaysAway2

The EU do not want us to leave because we make the whole thing financially viable. without Britain it will collapse faster.
At every turn they are stalling the talks and process.

The Government need to grab the issue fully and LEAVE.

Then and only then will the unelected undemocratic lunatics realise they have to talk to Britain constructively.

My patience with the EU is at an end. How much longer will the Government tolerate them?

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You can check out any time you like......

AA2 you don't even live in the UK so calm down.

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Originally Posted by AlwaysAway2

The EU do not want us to leave because we make the whole thing financially viable. without Britain it will collapse faster.
At every turn they are stalling the talks and process.

The Government need to grab the issue fully and LEAVE.

Then and only then will the unelected undemocratic lunatics realise they have to talk to Britain constructively.

My patience with the EU is at an end. How much longer will the Government tolerate them?

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You're drowning in debt, the economy is tanking and pig Sterling continues to crash, EU trade is all that keeps you marginally solvent. They dont need you or give a fuk about you.

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Originally Posted by Pilkers

You're drowning in debt, the economy is tanking and pig Sterling continues to crash, EU trade is all that keeps you marginally solvent. They dont need you or give a fuk about you.

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Bingo.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Bingo.

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Perhaps that's the future collapse of the economy , third world status, Venuzalian type of politics, right wing militia forming in the depths of the new forest and other outback regions. Overthrow the Royality, republic president elected ,align our economies with Catalonia,and South American dictatorships , everyone gets an allotment space to feed a family of four, roads turned into cycle tracks .

Whoosh end of the capitalist dream in the UK,sorted .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Perhaps that's the future collapse of the economy , third world status, Venuzalian type of politics, right wing militia forming in the depths of the new forest and other outback regions. Overthrow the Royality, republic president elected ,align our economies with Catalonia,and South American dictatorships , everyone gets an allotment space to feed a family of four, roads turned into cycle tracks .

Whoosh end of the capitalist dream in the UK,sorted .

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Scotland seeks sanctuary in EU membership and is saved from the chaos engulfing the Welsh Valleys as benefit
payments are ended by the Corbinista regime after the IMF refuses to bail out bankrupt England / Wales.

Nigel Farage continues to draw his MEP salary and moves to Belgium because beer and baccy are cheaper there.

The resurgent IRA creates chaos on the new " hard " border between Ulster and the Republic and ethnic cleansing begins in Protestant and Catholic areas with thousands of refugees on the move.

A NATO peace keeping force is sent to try to help the civilians involved.

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Originally Posted by Mambo

Any idea how much debt the EU is in ? , with all those bail outs by the European Central Bank to Greece etc - they're up to their neck in it I would imagine.

Full fact org says that in 2016 the UK bought £302 Billion worth of goods and services and in the same year the UK sold £242 billion to the EU - in other words we bought £60 Billion more from them.

So I would guess they very much do give a fuk about the UK, that plus the fact we give the EU 10 billion more than we get back would be another reason - perhaps :sherlock:

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What percentage of their exports are bought by us and vice versa? The impact of us losing our trade with the EU is far greater than vice versa. The eu is also in a better position to quickly replace lost trade.

We both lose from brexit.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

What percentage of their exports are bought by us and vice versa? The impact of us losing our trade with the EU is far greater than vice versa. The eu is also in a better position to quickly replace lost trade.

We both lose from brexit.

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Over 48% of our worldwide export trade is with the 27 member states of the EU. Germany is by far the biggest member state in terms of trade and they had 7.5% of their exports with us. You need to look at the member states that have a trade surplus with us who have more fragile economies as possible allies. On that basis you would target Spain and maybe Poland, Czech Republic and Belgium to influence. About 20 member states including France have a brought parity of imports and exports give or take 10%.

Our biggest trade surplus with the rest of the world is with the USA where we import about £60 billion and export £100 billion. It will be interesting to see the favourable trade deal we negotiate with the Make America Great Again Trump Administration that greatly improves on tht position.

Leaving the EU is fecking stupid , I still can't believe that idiot Cameron offered a straight in out vote and the country was fecking stupid enough to vote for it

We are going to be fecked for generations to come

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

In purely monetary terms 9% of the UK GDP is with the EU, according the Cardiff Professor of economics at Cardiff University. So why should the remaining 91% comply with EU standards - not sure myself. I am presuming he is correct though

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Sir Patrick midford is a raving right wing economist who advised Thatcher , he's off his head and nobody takes him seriously

We did have controlled immigration. We weren't in Schengen for a start.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I think you maybe right Sludge, Cameron should never have offered that referendum. I get the suspicion that if other countries offered a referendum there would be a few that may also vote to Leave.

Easy to say - but far better for the EU to address the concerns of its electorate than to have member states leave (and make it weaker).

I watched "Sir Patrick Minford" in the house of commons committee, I dont care who he advised previously (not that small minded) , some of what he said made a lot of sense especially re the importance of being unimportant. Just because someone doesnt agree with you - doesnt make them mad by the way.....

I think the bit that was missed by him and most others re trade etc is this :-
Goods are covered by WTO rules, so if it is hard brexit that is what all sides fall back to (mutually beneficial to no one) far better to agree on something re movement of goods.

The interesting bit is that the UK exports 'services' to the EU and other countries - apparently 'services' are not covered by WTO rules - which is something that needs to get sorted asap.

personally I'd like to be in the EU, trading freely with the EU, but with controlled immigration rules, like what we used to have. I dont want the EU to expand anymore, dont want a European army, dont want TTIP etc... not going to happen

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Our government wanted ttip and therefore will presumably press on with a similar kind of deal with the USA as soon as possible.

WTO not covering services is another reason why no deal is better for the EU than for us. Theresa seems to trying to bluff with a busted flush draw that the rest of the table can already see.

Does No Deal mean we don't have to pay the EU anything? I'm not sure that's right. Where did you read that?

Edit, ok I've found there's a House Of Lords report that suggests that but legal action would be likely.

Shame for the Leave voters who were sold the idea of low immigration and some bollocks on the side of a red bus as opposed to an enormous cluster **** of trying to establish new trade deals, no single market and onngoing endless negotiations going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by lardy

We did have controlled immigration. We weren't in Schengen for a start.

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The Schengen area is for people outside of the EU who want to visit and they only have to apply for one travel visa.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The Schengen area is for people outside of the EU who want to visit and they only have to apply for one travel visa.

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Yes and it also affects EU people.

Frankly I am utterly amazed.

It's bad enough that the average voter literally had no idea what the impact of their vote would be.

It is becoming more and more apparent that neither did the government.

How on earth can any organisation make such an important decision without a full understanding what the outputs would be? Clearly Plan A was "business as usual" but they lost, and there wasn't, and there still isn't, a Plan B.

If your local corner shop demonstrated such a lack of planning and general awareness they'd be out of business.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Sorry I should added that , some EU commentators say that the EU could appeal to the ECJ, which they are entitled to do. BUT there is no mention of it in Article 50. Article 50 presumes you will reach an agreement and if not then WTO rules apply. Very hard to see the EU winning that one, there is no precedent for it, there is no law for it and there is no treaty clause that stipulates it.

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Article 50 was written assuming that no one would ever invoke it and there's obviously no precedent.

Given that there's a lot of things that say we have to pay for leaving and not many things saying that we don't, I wouldn't be as confident as you about it.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Why do we need any trade deals - when you can simply trade with any country you like on WTO rules ? I know that is over simplistic but all trade deals seem to do is create protectionist environments.

There was article I read last week that said the Ivory coast would be open to exporting coffee and cocoa direct to the UK rather than us buying from the EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-38155872

In order for the ivory coast to sell cocoa into the EU, they must open up 80% of their market to the EU in return - this is not a good deal for the Ivory coast at all. The UK is the 4th largest consumer of chocolate - so far better for them to sell to us directly.

I know it's easy to say and with complex supply chains in place, changing those becomes a ball ache for business, which just wants to make as much money as possible for the least aggravation.

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https://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...ist-explains-4

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I'm not a lawyer Lardy, and would not presume anything re the validity of paying to leave, we are net contributors - does that mean if we were net beneficiaries the EU would still pay us ?.

There are way too many variables in this whole situation which means there many many outcomes, but it's all a big pain in the @rse and impossible to sort out in the time remaining

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It certainly is impossible now. This is why I think people are wrong to ask could Britain be better out if the EU (answer, yes it's possible) but will Britain be better off out. Then you need to look at our politicians and what they are realistically going to achieve. The Government and opposition are not strong enough to take us out and rebuild in my opinion. Their track record seems pretty clear on that.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Yes and it also affects EU people.

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Not with immigration though.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Eric I bow down to your better judgement, I thought TTIP was an EU initiative and was included in the 5 presidents report for the EU roadmap of the next 8 years (along with the European defence initiative etc).

For services to continue - we need the 'passporting' system to continue to work. However, by just having a subsidiary office in the EU seems to suffice as far as I can tell.

No Deal is better for us - if it means paying the EU 100 billion (in my opinion)
No deal is worse for the EU - as we can just walk away and not pay them a bean.
No deal is bad for the Financial Services sector, I think that works both ways though as EU financial institutions deal heavily with London.

One big mess is worse for all sides and seems to be the inevitable outcome as it stands.

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The UK was one of the countries in favour of unsavoury parts of TTIP like ISDS which the other major EU powers (France/Germany) were concerned with.

With the government we currently have I can't see ISDS being off the table in any talks with Trumps lot.

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Originally Posted by lardy

It certainly is impossible now. This is why I think people are wrong to ask could Britain be better out if the EU (answer, yes it's possible) but will Britain be better off out. Then you need to look at our politicians and what they are realistically going to achieve. The Government and opposition are not strong enough to take us out and rebuild in my opinion. Their track record seems pretty clear on that.

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Without doubt this is not easy for anyone politician or business man or the ordinary punter to agree something with 27 states , even the clever people who voted for this can't come up with an answer ,other than point fingers at the government .

I do wonder how those finger pointers would be reacting to other parties being in charge ,is this just a fashionable Tory rant , to turn this on any government is bit rich ,having dumped them in it without real thought of the outcome .

They have the upper hand, as they know we have been caught cold by this decision, the only subjects we have the upper hand on is the Financial square mile of the City of London , Security ,Arms .

Anyone of of us could negotiate a deal, if we rolled over and agreed to their terms on :
trade tariffs
divorce bill
continued support of the crazy £36 bn EU pension
freedom of movement and the rights of their citizens in the UK.
European Court of Justice membership.

Me I would live or die and play hardball , we could create a type of Singapore-on-Thames , slash corporation tax to attract business to our shores , tell the Germans we will heavily tariff their imported cars , and french wines , seek bilateral deals with those like Poland who may want to deal and Spain relies heavily on us ,conduct trade deals with others like India ,support Catalonia and the Dutch movements .

Yep lets divide and conquer and see if others follow .

I voted to say , but hey bugger them , they have no interest in us or our people or they would agree or move forward ,their worry if we get a deal others will follow, thats what this is about , brought upon by us and the very people who are moaning for their own political allegiance or gain , who are now the moaners , classy.

Ninian, didn't you say before that you didn't vote?

Singapore was able to do what it did because it's a small country and doesn't face the challenges that a bigger country does. It also has a government which has never had real opposition so they were able to make the changes they want quickly but they were also starting from an undeveloped nation status.

With the £470 bn loss announced the other day, the country has now lost more money since brexit was announced than it has paid to the EU in membership fees total since the EU began.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Agree with pretty much all of that - when I got to the voting booth I couldnt make my mind up - as you can probably tell from my posts, politically I would leave, economically I would stay in - but economically it hasnt been good for everyone.

Ask a banker in the city, or someone who makes money selling into the EU and they will tell you its madness to leave

Ask a fisherman or farmer and you will get the opposite reaction. If you have tried getting a doctors appointment and been told to wait 3 weeks, your local school is massively over subscribed etc - a population that has grown from the 60 odd million I remember to the approx 68 million it is today. Then no wonder people want controls on immigration (not a ban - just to be able to control it) - I dont want to start a thread on immigration though please. Tony Blair has a lot to answer for here with his go get em from anywhere policy.

I go back to my previous point - if the EU ever listened to their electorate - then they would allow immigration controls. As it stands the underlying mood music in EU countries seems to mirror the issues we have here.

Add to that an unelected, alcoholic, corrupt, Juncker in charge of the commission - and it doesnt take a genius to work out why people seem to have had enough - the EU is just too blind to notice.

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I agree about not making this thread about immigration but I just have to make one point because I feel like you are giving the government (any of the last 20 years) somewhat of a free pass on their inability to build infrastructure for a growing population. I have seen countless new developments locally with little thought put into the services they will use, vast estates put up with no more than a corner shop built.

There are countless examples of other countries who have experienced population growth that exceeds what the UK has experienced and they have been able to make things work.

It is a challenge but by no means unsurmountable and it shouldn't be a get out of jail free card for the government for not doing their job properly.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

What percentage of their exports are bought by us and vice versa? The impact of us losing our trade with the EU is far greater than vice versa. The eu is also in a better position to quickly replace lost trade.

We both lose from brexit.

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Does the EU do anything quickly?

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

IGNORE percentages they are meaningless when dealing with this sort of thing. THE only thing that matters is how much MONEY are we talking about about ? - the answer is we import 60 billion a year more from the EU than we export in money terms that is £302 billion imported and £242 billion exported

This for Goods and Services though. Goods are covered by WTO rules should we use those. Services are NOT covered by WTO rules, and such companies use the 'passporting' system. Passporting will be an issue in the negotiating meetings, and I'm guessing we will have to pay for access to it. It has to be said though - this is a 2 way street and EU companies also want to sell services in the UK.

#webothlosefrombrexit

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Clearly percentages do matter. If Benefit Bob and Richard Branson both lose a fiver, whose life is affected more?

Can't disagree with the hashtag though.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Why do we need any trade deals - when you can simply trade with any country you like on WTO rules ?

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What about European countries? We can't negotiate with them on an individual basis. All the nonsense about vineyards in France and car makers in Germany wanting free trade with the UK is bollocks. They can't have it, neither can we. We'd have to trade with European countries en bloc.

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Does the EU do anything quickly?

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Does anyone , just read this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41711337 it doesn't really give any depth , its soundbite and appears to be trying to attempting to weaken May ,whcih is fine in normal circumstances however if they are the real option,and they care about the UK what are they going to do for me , I want to know :

Will we be controlled by the European court of law on all matters
Will you fund the extraordinary £36 billion pension fund for the retirement of European Union officials
What are their actual immigration targets and mechanism.
How much are they going to give as subsidies to Wales , farmers ,fisherman .
How much is a reasonable divorce bill
Would they say no or stand up on any policy or accept the lot demanded for Brexit .
If they keep voting down the Brexit bill, how does that help anyone other than delay the outcome or postpone it .
Here is the real toughly one, Keir, would Labour at nay point refer back to the people for a new referendum.
Oh and another toughy ,as May was asked on LBC which way would you vote now on a personal level (keir and Jeremy ) stay or go , oh that right bid bad anti Labour press is in control ? and why has the same " stay or go " now question not been raised of the Labour leadership :sherlock:

If any of the above has been addressed I humbly apologies please post the news feeds I missed on the above matters as set out by Labour and the other parties .

I'm a very disillusioned ,lost , socialist ,who dislikes the Tories , but prefers real brave workable ,fundable , sensible polices /politics for all not sections of the communities,sound bite opposition is so easy and appealing , delivering uncomfortable reality is very tough .

'how would you vote now' is the easiest question in the world for May. There's only one answer for her.

Simple question - how many countries in the world trade solely on WTO terms without free trade agreements with other countries? Is there a reason why all of the major economies have free trade agreements and why do people think we'd be better off by not having any?

I’ll say one thing for Keri Starmer I think he’d make a bloody good prime minister.
Compare him to those vain glory seeking twat last David Davis and Boris Johnson.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Does anyone , just read this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41711337 it doesn't really give any depth , its soundbite and appears to be trying to attempting to weaken May ,whcih is fine in normal circumstances however if they are the real option,and they care about the UK what are they going to do for me , I want to know :

Will we be controlled by the European court of law on all matters
Will you fund the extraordinary £36 billion pension fund for the retirement of European Union officials
What are their actual immigration targets and mechanism.
How much are they going to give as subsidies to Wales , farmers ,fisherman .
How much is a reasonable divorce bill
Would they say no or stand up on any policy or accept the lot demanded for Brexit .
If they keep voting down the Brexit bill, how does that help anyone other than delay the outcome or postpone it .
Here is the real toughly one, Keir, would Labour at nay point refer back to the people for a new referendum.
Oh and another toughy ,as May was asked on LBC which way would you vote now on a personal level (keir and Jeremy ) stay or go , oh that right bid bad anti Labour press is in control ? and why has the same " stay or go " now question not been raised of the Labour leadership :sherlock:

If any of the above has been addressed I humbly apologies please post the news feeds I missed on the above matters as set out by Labour and the other parties .

I'm a very disillusioned ,lost , socialist ,who dislikes the Tories , but prefers real brave workable ,fundable , sensible polices /politics for all not sections of the communities,sound bite opposition is so easy and appealing , delivering uncomfortable reality is very tough .

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Labour are the opposition, their job is to hold the government to account on what they see as major issues and flaws within the process. They aren't auditioning to become the Government, this isn't an election campaign.

Corbyn believes in Brexit which is why Labour have been so useless in oposing it.

I don't think the " yoof " who support him realise this.

Anyway the whole thing is a disaster caused by Cameron letting Farage's tail wag his dog.

The Financial sector is set to move to Frankfurt , food prices are soaring and the £ is collapsing
against the Euro and the dollar.

Oh shyte new world that has such people in it.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Labour are the opposition, their job is to hold the government to account on what they see as major issues and flaws within the process. They aren't auditioning to become the Government, this isn't an election campaign.

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Have you read it says nothing,
He's electioneering, hes point scoring , where's the content ,where's the figures, where's the detail.

He'll be telling Students they will be free of debt soon hope it's not buying votes..

Even Frank Filed has saidvwork with Goverment not hinder, these are serious times we need a good deal for all the people with everyone helping not hindering .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Have you read it says nothing,
He's electioneering, hes point scoring , where's the content ,where's the figures, where's the detail.

He'll be telling Students they will be free of debt soon hope it's not buying votes..

Even Frank Filed has saidvwork with Goverment not hinder, these are serious times we need a good deal for all the people with everyone helping not hindering .

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It gives you a list of the things they want changing in the brexit bill, the article is about the brexit bill. I don't really know what more detail you want them to give?