FT: WALES 1 - 1 CROATIA. Match thread

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

The centre back is spare, fullback tucked in , all right. Ampadu decided to just do what he thought was best, he shouldn't have. He'll learn.

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This.

If you watch the goal again, Brekalo only managed to get it past Lockyer. Roberts' (not Rodon as I said earlier :facepalm:) body position means Brekalo has to square it as he doesn't have the space to take it around him at that point. Allen, although massively out of position in the build up, is the one who is covering - so why Ampadu gets attracted to the ball is anyone's guess.

Like you said, he's still incredibly young and inexperienced and can only get better if he learns from these types of mistakes. He'll definitely be a huge player for us.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The Full Back has just waltzed pass two Welsh players as though they weren't there, so there is no way Ampadu is going to leave him 1 v 1 in front of goal. Our CH never tried to minimize the distance between himself and the players in front of him, and he retreated as they advanced. Their FB was never getting past our defender and Ampadu, so the CH didn't need to take up that deep position. Like I said earlier it was a team effort that allowed the goal, so I wouldn't single out any one player. They need to work these things out on the training pitch.

BTW it was a very well worked goal and they knew what they were doing. They probably practice those moves a lot.

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The centre half is where he should be, honest mate, i know this, he's spare, protecting that area between him and the keeper, anticipating the delivery. The Central defender can't be pulled out of that position, he reacts when Ampadu decides to do what he likes without looking what's going on around him.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

The centre half is where he should be, honest mate, i know this, he's spare, protecting that area between him and the keeper, anticipating the delivery. The Central defender can't be pulled out of that position, he reacts when Ampadu decides to do what he likes without looking what's going on around him.

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We can discuss this all day, but I think you are analysing it in reverse after the the goal has been scored, and then tracing events backwards. I am looking at it from when their full-back first gets the ball, and then does his best impression of Maradona when he scored against England in '86. He cut us apart like a hot knife through butter. The moment it became a 1 v 1 inside the box he was a clear and present danger. I've never seen a situation like this where it is left to chance, and the nearest player runs in the opposite direction. They will always double up on him to prevent a shot at goal. If he had scored there would have been hell to play, and everybody would be moaning at Ampadu for not closing him down. Hindsight is a wonderful thing in football :wink:

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In this split second all Ampadu can see is a 1 v 1 inside the box, and he has no idea if their full-back is going past his man or not. Based on the way the guy had just annihilated two Welsh players, you have to say the odds are with the Croatia full-back. Ampadu is the only player who can provide cover if he beats his man. At that precise moment in time Ampadu has to go towards the ball. Whatever happened next has no relevance regarding his decision, as nobody on the pitch knew what the outcome would be.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

The centre half is where he should be, honest mate, i know this, he's spare, protecting that area between him and the keeper, anticipating the delivery. The Central defender can't be pulled out of that position, he reacts when Ampadu decides to do what he likes without looking what's going on around him.

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Agree. Amadu was impetuous and gets sucked towards the ball rather than staying with the 20 who he had covered. This allowed Brekalu, who I thought was the best player on the pitch, an out ball when there shouldn't have been one. He'll learn as he's a top prospect who needs games and experience under his belt. Hope he gets it at Leipzig rather than learning the hard way internationally though!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Agree. Amadu was impetuous and gets sucked towards the ball rather than staying with the 20 who he had covered. This allowed Brekalu, who I thought was the best player on the pitch, an out ball when there shouldn't have been one. He'll learn as he's a top prospect who needs games and experience under his belt. Hope he gets it at Leipzig rather than learning the hard way internationally though!

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You are seeing into the future mate, Ampadu had no idea what Brekalu was going to do. You can only react to what happens in front of you. Allen was already out of the game, so he had to cover for him as well. CH should have stepped up once he saw Ampadu moving towards the ball. What happens if Brekalu beats his man? What would we be discussing then?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Attachment 3284

In this split second all Ampadu can see is a 1 v 1 inside the box, and he has no idea if their full-back is going past his man or not. Based on the way the guy had just annihilated two Welsh players, you have to say the odds are with the Croatia full-back. Ampadu is the only player who can provide cover if he beats his man. At that precise moment in time Ampadu has to go towards the ball. Whatever happened next has no relevance regarding his decision, as nobody on the pitch knew what the outcome would be.

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There are defenders positioned to cover.

He doesn’t need to move.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

You are seeing into the future mate, Ampadu had no idea what Brekalu was going to do. You can only react to what happens in front of you. Allen was already out of the game, so he had to cover for him as well. CH should have stepped up once he saw Ampadu moving towards the ball. What happens if Brekalu beats his man? What would we be discussing then?

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You don't react at that level, you anticipate and keep your shape. If the Croatian player does the fullback and the keeper then well done to him, it's the fullback and keepers problem, not ampadu. He should 'be held his position, that would've forced the attacker to take the fullback on-fill your boots son-The central defender is in the correct position, he doesn't need to step out leaving a huge space to exploit. You are so wrong on all of this.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

You don't react at that level, you anticipate and keep your shape. If the Croatian player does the fullback and the keeper then well done to him, it's the fullback and keepers problem, not ampadu. He should 'be held his position, that would've forced the attacker to take the fullback on-fill your boots son-The central defender is in the correct position, he doesn't need to step out leaving a huge space to exploit. You are so wrong on all of this.

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Aside from anything else, if the Croat beats the fullback then there's no way that ampadu would get there before he got a shot away.

Nobody complained when he followed the ball against Slovakia, and made a successful block that kept us in Euro 2020. There are too many Captain Hindsight futurologists on here :biggrin: OK, here's a little game you guys can play. The next time you see a 1 v 1 developing inside the penalty area, observe the the nearest player who is in a position to intervene. Does this player move away from the action, or does he try to position himself for a possible intervention? Report back when you have seen about a dozen or so cases, and then we can have a proper conversation :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Nobody complained when he followed the ball against Slovakia, and made a successful block that kept us in Euro 2020. There are too many Captain Hindsight futurologists on here :biggrin: OK, here's a little game you guys can play. The next time you see a 1 v 1 developing inside the penalty area, observe the the nearest player who is in a position to intervene. Does this player move away from the action, or does he try to position himself for a possible intervention? Report back when you have seen about a dozen or so cases, and then we can have a proper conversation :thumbup:

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As can be seen in other parts of this forum, you have this habit of picking your favourites and then, after that, it doesn't matter what they do, you defend them no matter what. I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion except to say that the second photo Heisenberg posted looks terrible from a defensive point of view - it's criminal that there are six Welsh players in the penalty area and yet we have two Croatian players completely unmarked in central shooting positions around fifteen to twenty yards from goal and I'm sure questions were asked in the Welsh camp after the match as to why Ampadu and Allen allowed such a situation to come about.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

As can be seen in other parts of this forum, you have this habit of picking your favourites and then, after that, it doesn't matter what they do, you defend them no matter what. I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion except to say that the second photo Heisenberg posted looks terrible from a defensive point of view - it's criminal that there are six Welsh players in the penalty area and yet we have two Croatian players completely unmarked in shooting positions around fifteen to twenty yards from goal and I'm sure questions were asked in the Welsh camp after the amtch as to why Ampadu and Allen allowed such a situation to come about.

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They analysed it at half time, not sure of the pundit, but they said that it was fair enough for Allen to go across in that situation, but having seen that Allen had gone to the ball, Ampadu really should have held his position.

But he's still very young.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

Nobody complained when he followed the ball against Slovakia, and made a successful block that kept us in Euro 2020. There are too many Captain Hindsight futurologists on here :biggrin: OK, here's a little game you guys can play. The next time you see a 1 v 1 developing inside the penalty area, observe the the nearest player who is in a position to intervene. Does this player move away from the action, or does he try to position himself for a possible intervention? Report back when you have seen about a dozen or so cases, and then we can have a proper conversation :thumbup:

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Allen was already across, what was Ampadu thinking? it was pure inexperience on his part. Players have to hold their positions, even when they think that another player is in a vulnerable position, although that player is by no means out of the game and has a decent chance of dealing with the situation. Lets say that the attacking player thought twice about taking on the fullback because he saw Ampadu coming across, so by Ampadu coming across he allowed the attacker an out, another option, when the only option before was to take the fullback on and then finish as that's what he would have had to do if Ampadu had held his position. The fullback hadn't been beaten, if he had then that would've been his problem, nobody would've blamed Ampadu for not coming across as it was plain to see that he had a man on his shoulder. He's 19 and has alot to learn, it was exhuberance on his part. I bet that the Croatian player couldn't believe his luck, and the winger should send him a bunch of flowers for making the decision for him.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

As can be seen in other parts of this forum, you have this habit of picking your favourites and then, after that, it doesn't matter what they do, you defend them no matter what. I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion except to say that the second photo Heisenberg posted looks terrible from a defensive point of view - it's criminal that there are six Welsh players in the penalty area and yet we have two Croatian players completely unmarked in central shooting positions around fifteen to twenty yards from goal and I'm sure questions were asked in the Welsh camp after the match as to why Ampadu and Allen allowed such a situation to come about.

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The point I am making is that Ampadu didn't have the luxury of reviewing Heisenberg's second photo before he made his decision to focus on the 1 v 1 situation that was developing inside the penalty area right in front of him. You make it sound like having an opinion that is different to yours must involve some kind of favouritism, but it's just what I would have done in that situation. If you watch a lot of matches you will see that the nearest players attack the ball inside the penalty, they don't think about who they should be marking just in case something unknown happens a few moves down the line. That is what Captain Hindsight armchair fans do!

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Originally Posted by Rjk

They analysed it at half time, not sure of the pundit, but they said that it was fair enough for Allen to go across in that situation, but having seen that Allen had gone to the ball, Ampadu really should have held his position.

But he's still very young.

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Allen was yards behind Brekalu and effectively out of the game, as was the second defender who risked giving away a penalty if he tackled from behind. Ampadu is the only player who could have cut Brekalu off from goal if he had gone past the remaining defender. He did the similar thing in the Slovakia game. I still maintain that the CH should have stepped forward, but he is also young and inexperienced. Once the ball was played inside the CH was stuck in no mans land and their striker had a free shot at goal.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The point I am making is that Ampadu didn't have the luxury of reviewing Heisenberg's second photo before he made his decision to focus on the 1 v 1 situation that was developing inside the penalty area right in front of him. You make it sound like having an opinion that is different to yours must involve some kind of favouritism, but it's just what I would have done in that situation. If you watch a lot of matches you will see that the nearest players attack the ball inside the penalty, they don't think about who they should be marking just in case something unknown happens a few moves down the line. That is what Captain Hindsight armchair fans do!

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Have you ever posted a word of criticism of Ampadu, and a few others, on here? Your argument that he did not have the benefit of a photo is I suspect as close as we'll get from you of an admission that Ampadu was at fault because the player we all hope he will become would have known exactly how to react in such situations - I think he can become a great Welsh player, but there are going to be mistakes and misjudgements on the way.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Have you ever posted a word of criticism of Ampadu, and a few others, on here? Your argument that he did not have the benefit of a photo is I suspect as close as we'll get from you of an admission that Ampadu was at fault because the player we all hope he will become would have known exactly how to react in such situations - I think he can become a great Welsh player, but there are going to be mistakes and misjudgements on the way.

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Exactly. He looks like he's going to develop into a very good player, i fancy him at centre back. Nobody is saying that he's shit. He made a mistake through inexperience, that's all. WB is coming out with nonsense.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Have you ever posted a word of criticism of Ampadu, and a few others, on here? Your argument that he did not have the benefit of a photo is I suspect as close as we'll get from you of an admission that Ampadu was at fault because the player we all hope he will become would have known exactly how to react in such situations - I think he can become a great Welsh player, but there are going to be mistakes and misjudgements on the way.

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It's got nothing to do with Ampadu, I would have done exactly the same thing if two of my defensive colleagues had already been taken out of the game by a very skillful player, and a 1 v 1 developed right in front of me inside the penalty box. It seems like you are attempting to suppress any opinion that doesn't fit in with your groupthink by making false assumptions and trying to connect unrelated issues :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Exactly. He looks like he's going to develop into a very good player, i fancy him at centre back. Nobody is saying that he's shit. He made a mistake through inexperience, that's all. WB is coming out with nonsense.

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It's a mistake to close down the man with the ball inside the penalty area? And now all opinions that differ from your own are nonsense? :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

It's a mistake to close down the man with the ball inside the penalty area? And now all opinions that differ from your own are nonsense? :hehe:

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Only your opinion on this subject in nonsense. You are so far wrong on this. I'm out now. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Only your opinion on this subject in nonsense. You are so far wrong on this. I'm out now. :thumbup:

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What if the Brekalo had gone passed the last defender and Ampadu had executed another perfect block tackle? Your arguement only works if he passes the ball inside and the CB never closed down the space, and Allen never moved across when he saw Ampadu closing down the ball. But there again, you are the fella who thought it was a good idea to give bad passes to your team mates in order to make yourself look good, and then you wonder why you never made the grade in football :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

The point I am making is that Ampadu didn't have the luxury of reviewing Heisenberg's second photo before he made his decision to focus on the 1 v 1 situation that was developing inside the penalty area right in front of him. You make it sound like having an opinion that is different to yours must involve some kind of favouritism, but it's just what I would have done in that situation. If you watch a lot of matches you will see that the nearest players attack the ball inside the penalty, they don't think about who they should be marking just in case something unknown happens a few moves down the line. That is what Captain Hindsight armchair fans do!

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Experience then.

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Originally Posted by dembethewarrior

Experience then.

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I watched the goal again, and the only players I couldn't find any fault with were Bale, Moore, James & Davies. Everybody else did something that was less than optimal, while Croatia did the opposite and put together an excellent counter-attack from the turnover. It was just a bad day at the office, and the players need to analyze the video before having a good chat about it. I don't know if Wales have a defensive coach, but if they haven't got one then they should look into it.

PS This is my final contribution to this well-balanced and thoughtful debate :biggrin:

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

I watched the goal again, and the only players I couldn't find any fault with were Bale, Moore, James & Davies. Everybody else did something that was less than optimal, while Croatia did the opposite and put together an excellent counter-attack from the turnover. It was just a bad day at the office, and the players need to analyze the video before having a good chat about it. I don't know if Wales have a defensive coach, but if they haven't got one then they should look into it.

PS This is my final contribution to this well-balanced and thoughtful debate :biggrin:

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His positional sense will improve with experience.

It’s how the best CBs get away with being slow..