Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
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Originally Posted by
Mambo
Ive worked for the council Eric - we used to be told to take 2 sick weeks a year - as this would never be questioned - so everyone did.
This directly leads to this -
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...-cost-12916019
Cardiff Council Staff Sick absenses - Staff sickness absences have cost Cardiff council £134m in less than a decade with tens of thousands of days lost to illness every year.
This is the reason why policies like you mentioned were introduced.
And this backs up what I said -
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/lo...loyees-8160055 - the average employee at the Cardiff Council calls in sick for 10 days every year – a statistic branded “frightening” by councillors. FOI request data.
So it's not rhetoric - it is a simple plain fact - as stated by the council themselves - why do you think Unison allowe dthe Council to do this where you work?
(This has nothing to do with why Carillion went bust by the way)
No, the reason it was introduced was to cut costs. A fair thing to do if council employees are collectively taking too much time off. They realised that it is easier to **** everyone over than tackle the actual problem - the same old people taking their 4-6 months off every 2 years for something that is completely impossible to disprove (best one was 'whiplash' caused by pulling down the hand towel in the toilets when it was empty).
From what I heard practically everyone who worked at the local branch of unison was booted out because of this episode. No other councils decided to go down this route afaik, I think recently Hillingdon floated it but it doesn't look likely to happen.
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(This has nothing to do with why Carillion went bust by the way)
True but presumptuous insulting bollocks like this can't go unanswered unfortunately...
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I remember the public sector in the 70's, the problem is - when you have just one group of public sector workers , as employees of the Govt - and with no competition for the work - and no penalty clauses for delivering late or sloppy work etc - then you get what we got - massive wage demands - strikes - secondary picketing - and a crap service all round - and with no alternative.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Is that 10 average the mean, median or mode?
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
Why not read the article and you may find out for yourself - or just send an email and ask them directly yourself
foi@cardiff.gov.uk
Im sure you can understand this though -
"Staff sickness absences have cost Cardiff council £134m in less than a decade with tens of thousands of days lost to illness every year.
Figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show the annual cost of staff sick days rose from £15.6m in 2007-8 to a high of £18.2m in 2012-13.
Since then the numbers have been falling and in 2015-16 – the most recent data available – the cost was £10.4m.
The highest number of days of sickness absence in a single year was in 2007-08, when 163,509 days were lost.
Over the nine years from 2007-08 to 2015-16 a total of 1.22m days were lost at a total cost to taxpayers of exactly £134m."
This has nothing to do re Carillion though -
just gives you an idea of the mindset of a public sector workforce - that was in place when worked in the Council and looks like it is still there. It's not until such a mindset is got rid of that Govt building will ever come back into being the public sector again - in my opinion - and it seems the previous Labour and Conservative Govts feel the same way.
Carillion it seems was the best halfway house - uk company being given uk building contracts - but even then it was fecked up by greed and mis management. If the Govt had given Carillion workers - people would be demanding british jobs for british workers in british companies, which is what happened - and now people are complaining that the Govt was awarding those contracts in the first place!!!!
No it is gives me an idea of how you will use a statistic to support your argument without even knowing how it was calculated or what it means, which in my opinion makes it pretty tricky to take anything you type seriously.
Also "Well, the 70's" is not a valid argument against introducing public sector involvement in industries where it isn't currently the status quo.
Your bias has become clear and your desperation to be right even clearer, may I advise that you go to a hospital, go to your local social care department, go to the fire station or your local school. What I think you will find there is a load of people getting on with their jobs under difficult circumstances. Or maybe you are right and you will find a load of people outside on strike because that is just what public sector workers do!
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
I guess I need to make it big for you
just gives you an idea of the mindset of a public sector workforce
Do you see what is wrong with saying that? You based this on a few anecdotes from the 70's and some statistics you don't understand from one city council.
It is insulting.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
wow #snowflake - you trigger so easily :-
Ah I see the alt-right handbook you got for Christmas being put to good use.
My first job was as a skivvy in HR - Adult Care Services and Children's Services (i.e. people who work directly with vulnerable and ill adults and children) dragged the average up significantly. Finance, HR etc. had very similar levels to the private sector average. It might come as a massive surprise but it isn't a fantastic idea to go to work with a cold if you work with and around vulnerable children and adults who might die from complications after catching it from you. Unless the figures are adjusted to take into account the different rigours and responsibilities of each job role/sector then it is actually flagrant to publish them without stating so, in my opinion.
This feels a bit like shouting at a spider to get out of the bathtub, you don't really understand what you are posting so lets move back to Carillion.
You confidently stated
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But no one is getting 'shafted' as you so eloquently put it
Do you still believe this to be true?
You also missed my post on the first page, choosing to reply to the one's around it instead. Maybe you could answer this time.
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I pay into a pension scheme, I imagine most on here do. I pay tax, I imagine most on here do. The tax I pay goes to pay for projects like HS2, my pension contributions may well also get invested in a company like this. So I am potentially part-funding the CEO's payrise twice. He drives off into the sunset with his bags of dosh after doing a shitty job and my pittance pension takes another hit.
Does this really look like an example of a situation that doesn't affect the little people?
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
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Originally Posted by
Mambo
Im alt right - haha - that is the weirdest thing youve ever said.
I didn't say that, did I?
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
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Originally Posted by
Mambo
Im alt right - haha - that is the weirdest thing youve ever said - and that is a long list Eric.
What are you thoughts on the ONS stats re their figures - and that it seems the public sector and councils in particular have an issue with being on the sick. I dont think your sickness levels - when compared to the whole country will skew the balance somehow. I say this Eric - as I used to work at the council - and (as said) we were all told to make sure you have 10 days sick per year. From the stats - that hasn't changed much - although Cardiff council now have measures in place to deal with it.
See the Jordan Peterson thread on the main board and watch the first 3 minutes of the video where he talks about multivariate vs univariate analysis. They publish the numbers for us to muse upon but I am quite certain no statistician worth his/her salt would intend for you to interpret them in the way that you have chosen to.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
Im alt right - haha - that is the weirdest thing youve ever said - and that is a long list Eric.
What are you thoughts on the ONS stats re their figures - and that it seems the public sector and councils in particular have an issue with being on the sick. I dont think your sickness levels - when compared to the whole country will skew the balance somehow. I say this Eric - as I used to work at the council - and (as said) we were all told to make sure you have 10 days sick per year. From the stats - that hasn't changed much - although Cardiff council now have measures in place to deal with it.
Anyway - re people being shafted - Carillion employees working on public contracts (or in my case a friend on the HS2 project - are not being shafted - they are continuing to work and be paid, in due time they will transfer with the same pay to a new employer - ie one of the other main contractors that will take on the Carillion parts of the work.
So - same job, same pay etc - I dont call that being shafted - in the circumstances.
I have no idea what will happen to Carillion employees who are working on non public sector work. I would assume that these projects still need to be completed and there is a client who needs the work done - which is why Carillion went into compulsory liquidation rather than administration.
The people who have been shafted are anyone who invested in equity in Carillion, private investors, pension funds etc - the share value is just about nil.
The example of the business that was owed £800,000 by Carillion - Im sorry Eric - but that is gross stupidity on the part of that business. What type of business person allows a debt of 800k to accrue - before demanding payment. They should have smelt a rat a long time before, especially if Carillion were refusing to pay them. They should have down tools immediately and gone straight to court.
So yes - I would feel desperately sorry for those employees - for having such a boss, and especially if they get laid off as a result. But that is business - businesses fail, debts are owed, and unfortunately if you are left being owed money, you have a big problem.
Someone did me for 10 grand once, it was a limited company, had no assets, nothing I could do about it - he was an (ex) mate, who just disappeared and by the time I did some research - any money / assets were gone, everything else was in his wife's name. It still p'ss's me off to this day.
Eric - if youre at all interested Ive just had a text from my mate on the HS2 project is taking redundancy - getting half a years salary, and thinks he can get a job working with another company on the HS2 within a month. If that comes off - he has a win win.
Must get back to my diy jobs now - wiring in light fittings - deep joy.
I guess our wires are crossed, don't forgive the pun, because I was looking at this from a broader perspective than just this one company. What I was trying to say earlier in the thread is that we, as taxpayers and pension holders, are intrinsically linked to these behemoths but we have such little say over their behaviour. In other countries, this investigation into their directors and senior staff would probably result in jail terms but you almost know for certain that here in the UK nothing will come from it. I wasn't just referring to contractors and smaller companies caught up in this debacle, I was referring to everyone else and next scandal and the one after that.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
When asked about Carillion on the radio this morning, Diane Abbott asked “how many is a Carillion?” :hehe:
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
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Originally Posted by
Nick
When asked about Carillion on the radio this morning, Diane Abbott asked “how many is a Carillion?” :hehe:
According to Sky a Carillion equals approximately £5 billion with half of that being pension liaibilites. Good joke though!
https://news.sky.com/story/revealed-...ities-11213303
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
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Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Thatcher's legacy.
PFI's were not her legacy , Labour were heavily involved in their use, it was a good idea at the time as it mitigated goverment expenditure having the cost and risk of the books , however it is now probaly outdated and need a rethink or deep regulation.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
wow #snowflake - you trigger so easily :-
Use of the word "snowflake" = a sure sign you're losing the argument.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
The Taxpayer isnt losing out here - as we the taxpayer arent bailing them out - as far as I am aware. Pension funds as share holders of Carillion - maybe should have been more on the ball and dumped the stock on the 1st profit warnings announcement - maybe they did ?.
I know what you mean though Eric - greater corporate penalties for those that are proven to have acted not in the best interest of the shareholders. We need to be more like what happened to Conrad Black and Allen Stanford (110 years sentence) in the US.
Although having said that - Chappel from the BHS pensions scandal - looks like he'll be doing a stretch. Phil Green should be as well, same goes for large corps not paying tax in the country of purchase and funneling it through Dublin, same goes for service utilities like Thames water who are now off shore and have amassed 1billion worth of debt etc etc
I should caveat that - as the Pension Deficit Fund maybe (but by no means certainly) be called in. I dont know how the pension deficit fund is financed
What????? There are estimates that the collapse will cost the taxpayer at least one billion pounds.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...ayer-1-bn.html
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
i'd blame anyone who is a position of government authority ,and leave those poor old people running Carillion alone,and anyone else who is touching /managing state provided money .
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
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Originally Posted by
life on mars
i'd blame anyone who is a position of government authority ,and leave those poor old people running Carillion alone,and anyone else who is touching /managing state provided money .
Did anybody say this?
It sounds as though you don't want the government to be held to account for anything they do.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
May ok may cost the taxpayer. But I wouldn’t mind betting you I’ll be near the mark.
You have a go at me for linking to an unnamed source from Carillion and then you state you are going to talk to your mate, an unnamed source to ask “what’s happening on the ground”.
And yes I am of the opinion that all the contracts should be renationalised.
Particularly when you read articles like this
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-audit-office
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
To be honest - you quoting a Guardian written article is about as unbiased as me quoting you a daily express article on how Diana died etc. The Guardian is to the Left as the Daily Mail is to the right.
Im not about to give you the name of a mate who works for Carillion on a public forum either (you'll just have to truist me or not - your call). Im due to see him later this week - he works out of Wolverhampton at the moment. I will grant you this though - there may well be a cost re the Carillion Pension fund deficit - I'll ask him what the score is with the pensions.
OK another article
http://www.cityam.com/279297/carilli...yer-gbp54m-day
“Hundreds of Carillion's public sector contracts are costing the government millions of pounds in temporary funding every day, according to official statistics”.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...lion-jwh8vb9bc
“Taxpayers face huge bill for collapse of Carillion”.
You and your friend must be both living in cloud cuckoo land :facepalm:
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Linking to articles on a message board and having discussions on points you disagree with is being angry? I’m the calmest person in the world darling.
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Lucky him. Shame about the apprentices though isn’t it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b01fbbefb37576
Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mambo
Oh Dear - give it up
A private company went bust - bad things happen - people lose their jobs etc. What we were discussing was the cost to the Govt and whether they would bail out a private company - well guess what - they havent - like they havent done before. What they did do was facilitate an arrangement whereby the public sector projects (and the people working on them) continued and are getting other companies to continue the work, so there is as little disruption to the projects as possible.
This is your cue - to now reply about the bankers and why the Govt bailed them out - they had no choice - as the whole fecking economy stops if all your banks fail.
There are 3 things that feck me off in all of this :-
1. The pension fund was seemingly allowed to have a short fall estimated to be around 700 million - that's the biggest problem of all
2. KPMG it seems cooked the books - albeit in a legal way at the behest of the CEO.
3. Bad senior management / incompetence has given everyone a headache - and I doubt they will do jail time for it.
That's me done on this thread :thumbup: (ps - of course I care about anyone losing their jobs - but thats for another thread)
Don’t be so precious, are you the only one allowed to have an opinion? Calm down dear.