Lt. The Hon. George Colthurst St Barleigh - the inspiration for Johnson's "Brexit war cabinet".

At the infamous Flanders Pidgeon murderer court martial, Captain Edmund Blackadder's counsel, Lt. The Hon. George Colthurst St Barleigh, opted for the blind optimism defence. Watching Newsnight yesterday, I was struck by how our new Prime Minister and his merry bunch of plucky chums have been influenced by this approach - blind optimism is now the order of the day and those filthy foreigners aren't going to know what's hit them!

Backed by a new leader bounce which has seen his party storm into a lead of all of two points in the latest opinion polls, Johnson is riding a wave of enormous goodwill the like of which has not been seen in this country since Theresa May was reluctantly persuaded to call an unrequired General Election because of the countless displays of adulation she received on her numerous meet the public encounters through the length and breadth of the UK.

There might be challenges ahead, but all that is needed is more of the Dunkirk spirit. The fact that the generation that is old enough to have actually been at Dunkirk voted for Remain in greater numbers than any other bar the Millennials is irrelevant - there is no place for such conchie talk in Johnson's Brexit War Cabinet!

Believe you're wrong re your last sentence.

- Just over 70% of 18 to 24-year-olds who voted in the referendum backed Remain, four major academic and commercial polls conducted shortly after the ballot agree, with just under 30% backing Leave. In contrast, only 40% of those aged 65 and over supported Remain, while 60% placed their cross against Leave. - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45098550

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

Believe you're wrong re your last sentence.

- Just over 70% of 18 to 24-year-olds who voted in the referendum backed Remain, four major academic and commercial polls conducted shortly after the ballot agree, with just under 30% backing Leave. In contrast, only 40% of those aged 65 and over supported Remain, while 60% placed their cross against Leave. - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45098550

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65 and over isn't the demographic that fought at Dunkirk. Try adding a couple of decades.

Link me to stats how those aged 90 and over voted in that referendum then.

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

Link me to stats how those aged 90 and over voted in that referendum then.

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https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...s-millennials/

Well it's about time we had a bit of optimism and intent to succeed .
That could be applied to the football team we watch too.

If we look solely at the difficulties we'll never achieve anything and in order to succeed we must take bold decisions and confront obstacles.
You might think you can succeed and you might think you'll fail if you try anything which is difficult - either way you're right.

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Originally Posted by lardy

65 and over isn't the demographic that fought at Dunkirk. Try adding a couple of decades.

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Those in the 60 upwards age bracket would have heard and known far better than younger people what the Dunkirk spirit meant , my grandfather went through two world wars, and I can still hear and know what that spirit means .


Thinking back to my childhood we played war games and only shot Germans, pretending to fly with ones arms open , humming the dambusters theme music , goose stepping inappropriately , and singing songs about Hitler's one ball .

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Those in the 60 upwards age bracket would have heard and known far better than younger people what the Dunkirk spirit meant , my grandfather went through two world wars, and I can still hear and know what that spirit means .


Thinking back to my childhood we played war games and only shot Germans, pretending to fly with ones arms open , humming the dambusters theme music , goose stepping inappropriately , and singing songs about Hitler's one ball .

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Not sure why you're making a competition of it. Bob said about people who were actually at Dunkirk, that's what I referred to.

I find it strange that ,if all these different age groups voted overwhelmingly to remain , they didn't win.
I don't think you can take polls and statistics too seriously these days because they so rarely correspondent with the actual outcome.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

I find it strange that ,if all these different age groups voted overwhelmingly to remain , they didn't win.
I don't think you can take polls and statistics too seriously these days because they so rarely correspondent with the actual outcome.

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a) only a few age groups voted 'overwhelmingly' to remain

b) they don't consist of many voters

You trust words uttered by proven liars but not numbers. Oh goody.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Those in the 60 upwards age bracket would have heard and known far better than younger people what the Dunkirk spirit meant , my grandfather went through two world wars, and I can still hear and know what that spirit means .


Thinking back to my childhood we played war games and only shot Germans, pretending to fly with ones arms open , humming the dambusters theme music , goose stepping inappropriately , and singing songs about Hitler's one ball .

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Do tell, what does it mean?

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

a) only a few age groups voted 'overwhelmingly' to remain

b) they don't consist of many voters

You trust words uttered by proven liars but not numbers. Oh goody.

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Numbers aren't capable of truth or deception. However, people may use them in either way.
Similarly, and I don't particularly know why you're telling me this about proven liars actually, but the fact that an individual lies on one occasion does not mean that they are lying every time they say something.

I was remarking today actually that graphs and statistics have replaced intellectual analysis, lateral and higher thinking in recent times - that's both a practical necessity if you want to hand out degrees on the back of cornflakes packets and a great advantage to propogandists because you can manipulate them to create any conclusion you desire.

If I were to prove to you by mathematics that 1 = 2, would you conclude that this was indeed the case ? Perhaps you would actually, but in fact it's not true.
I recommend that you cease your apparent practise of "believing numbers" , because you might as well believe avocados or hats.

https://youtu.be/hI9CaQD7P6I

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Those in the 60 upwards age bracket would have heard and known far better than younger people what the Dunkirk spirit meant , my grandfather went through two world wars, and I can still hear and know what that spirit means .


Thinking back to my childhood we played war games and only shot Germans, pretending to fly with ones arms open , humming the dambusters theme music , goose stepping inappropriately , and singing songs about Hitler's one ball .

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I saw on the D Day commemoration a German Soldier and a British solider from that battle warmly embrace each other and relate to each other as brothers.

I was nearly filling up watching this gesture of friendship. Real heroes talking of peace and friendship as opposed to that utter dickhead in number 10 and his ‘war cabinet’ and morons who espouse the ‘we won two world wars we’ll win Brexit mentality’

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Those in the 60 upwards age bracket would have heard and known far better than younger people what the Dunkirk spirit meant , my grandfather went through two world wars, and I can still hear and know what that spirit means .


Thinking back to my childhood we played war games and only shot Germans, pretending to fly with ones arms open , humming the dambusters theme music , goose stepping inappropriately , and singing songs about Hitler's one ball .

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I'd say you're proving my point there - generations who either weren't there when the War was taking place or were too young to appreciate what was happening playing at being soldiers.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Numbers aren't capable of truth or deception. However, people may use them in either way.
Similarly, and I don't particularly know why you're telling me this about proven liars actually, but the fact that an individual lies on one occasion does not mean that they are lying every time they say something.

I was remarking today actually that graphs and statistics have replaced intellectual analysis, lateral and higher thinking in recent times - that's both a practical necessity if you want to hand out degrees on the back of cornflakes packets and a great advantage to propogandists because you can manipulate them to create any conclusion you desire.

If I were to prove to you by mathematics that 1 = 2, would you conclude that this was indeed the case ? Perhaps you would actually, but in fact it's not true.
I recommend that you cease your apparent practise of "believing numbers" , because you might as well believe avocados or hats.

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Well in another thread you described trump as the person who is 'going to bat for us' so I think we already know your ability to judge character.

That is why you should always look into the methodology of the poll or the way somebody reached their conclusion. You on the other hand have just chosen to disregard all 'polls and statistics'. Now I could be generous and say that the reason for you doing that is because years of study have led you to believe they are manipulated and innaccurate. The truth however is much simpler, none of them confirm your ill informed world view. This is a trend seen all over but, in my experience, most prominently amongst aging Brexiteers longing for the return of the empire and Trump fanatics.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Well in another thread you described trump as the person who is 'going to bat for us' so I think we already know your ability to judge character.

That is why you should always look into the methodology of the poll or the way somebody reached their conclusion. You on the other hand have just chosen to disregard all 'polls and statistics'. Now I could be generous and say that the reason for you doing that is because years of study have led you to believe they are manipulated and innaccurate. The truth however is much simpler, none of them confirm your ill informed world view. This is a trend seen all over but, in my experience, most prominently amongst aging Brexiteers longing for the return of the empire and Trump fanatics.

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Well I did say there, and posted a clip to show , that numbers can be right or wrong. I didn't suggest that they are automatically wrong, just that they are capable of being manipulated to get the answer you want. Therefore they don't amount to absolute proof of anything and so I return to my original - quite reasonable - assertion that you can't rely upon the numbers graphs or polls people might choose to reinforce their opinions.

Saying that Donald Trump is going in to bat for us isnt judging his character, it's judging his intent surely ? Mind you, even if I quite like Donald Trump, which I do in fact, that doesn't indicate anything about my ability to judge character except that you disagree with it.

It's an unfortunate by product of the demise of higher thinking I mentioned there that lots of people now form opinions and presume that these opinions are correct . If anyone should disagree they must either be wrong, stupid or wicked , and an alternative hypothesis no longer produces productive discussion ,but anger and outrage.

There's no need at all for all this bloody nonsense and nastiness you know. You're on about my ill informed world view and how I'm trying to confirm it by fair means or foul, but you know nothing of me - I've simply taken a different view to yours and so you launch into a tantrum.

I suggest with great respect that you should re think that kind of reaction. It's not reasoned or civilised and I don't think it's terribly persuasive to anyone but those who already share your views.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Well I did say there, and posted a clip to show , that numbers can be right or wrong. I didn't suggest that they are automatically wrong, just that they are capable of being manipulated to get the answer you want. Therefore they don't amount to absolute proof of anything and so I return to my original - quite reasonable - assertion that you can't rely upon the numbers graphs or polls people might choose to reinforce their opinions.

Saying that Donald Trump is going in to bat for us isnt judging his character, it's judging his intent surely ? Mind you, even if I quite like Donald Trump, which I do in fact, that doesn't indicate anything about my ability to judge character except that you disagree with it.

It's an unfortunate by product of the demise of higher thinking I mentioned there that lots of people now form opinions and presume that these opinions are correct . If anyone should disagree they must either be wrong, stupid or wicked , and an alternative hypothesis no longer produces productive discussion ,but anger and outrage.

There's no need at all for all this bloody nonsense and nastiness you know. You're on about my ill informed world view and how I'm trying to confirm it by fair means or foul, but you know nothing of me - I've simply taken a different view to yours and so you launch into a tantrum.

I suggest with great respect that you should re think that kind of reaction. It's not reasoned or civilised and I don't think it's terribly persuasive to anyone but those who already share your views.

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The hill you want to die on is "Donald Trump's character"?

Almost every opinion you have displayed on here (in your short time under your current username) could have been copy pasted from the express.

Back to the original point of the thread, you should be a bit more optimistic about being in the EU, I hear that helps you overcome any problems. We could have done so many positive things without the constant whiney negativity from brexiteers.

Also I can't let that slide. On polling you are just plain wrong. The majority are studies with a defined margin of error, clear advertised methodology and evidence of what was asked of the person filling it in. I trust numbers because I can inspect them and crucially how they were collected. That isn't to say that you couldn't write two contrasting headlines from the same dataset but in essence that just proves my point.

I am certainly not against listening to other informed opinions but your contribution to this thread proves that, on this subject, yours isn't informed. Effectively, 'Brexit will be good if we all believe in it', we have heard it all before and frankly it sounds like something a conman 'psychic' would say to a load of old granny's he is trying to work over.

Well I wonder why you think I'd want to con you rather than genuinely believing that my view of the matter is the right one ?
I can't see how I'd particularly benefit personally.

You say that you can check numbers but that clip demonstrates that the fact that the math is correct doesn't prevent skullduggery.
Indeed it's interesting that you mention fake psychics ,because there's a whole branch of conjuring which works on tricks of math, and please don't imagine that conjuring tricks aren't routinely used by governments and others to achieve covert aims.

Again though, you go off on one and get angry because I've put forward an opinion you don't agree with. You should have a word with yourself about that you know.

Perhaps in your rage you didn't read the bit where I made a distinction between Donald Trump's character and his aims ?

Whilst I'd be pleased to persuade you to my point of view because I believe it to be correct, I'm very glad that you're free to your own view and ,whilst I don't agree with it, I don't disrespect or dislike you for excersising that basic human entitlement. I wish you could accord me the same courtesy though.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Well I wonder why you think I'd want to con you rather than genuinely believing that my view of the matter is the right one ?
I can't see how I'd particularly benefit personally.

You say that you can check numbers but that clip demonstrates that the fact that the math is correct doesn't prevent skullduggery.
Indeed it's interesting that you mention fake psychics ,because there's a whole branch of conjuring which works on tricks of math, and please don't imagine that conjuring tricks aren't routinely used by governments and others to achieve covert aims.

Again though, you go off on one and get angry because I've put forward an opinion you don't agree with. You should have a word with yourself about that you know.

Perhaps in your rage you didn't read the bit where I made a distinction between Donald Trump's character and his aims ?

Whilst I'd be pleased to persuade you to my point of view because I believe it to be correct, I'm very glad that you're free to your own view and ,whilst I don't agree with it, I don't disrespect or dislike you for excersising that basic human entitlement. I wish you could accord me the same courtesy though.

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Nobody who is, presumably, British and old enough to have seen a football game in 1971 who uses the word "math" twice in a message deserves respect - I'm not entirely joking there either.

I don't mean to go over old ground here, but you and Wales Bales are so similar in the way you adopt an air of smug superiority that has you pointing out the flaws in the characters of us mere mortals while portraying the exact same blatant biases that we all show when arguing our corner.

I assume all of your waffling on about numbers and graphs is aimed at the link I provided when asked to provide evidence of my claim that the generation that is old enough to have been affected by the Second World War through direct experience of it were more in favour of remaining in the EU than any other except Millennials.

For me, your responses in this thread have been entirely predictable. You have this air of superiority which tends to become devalued when you proceed to fall into the exact same traps brought on by plain, unthinking bias that the rest of us regularly fall into. I have no reason to disbelieve Eric Cartman when he places you in a category of "aging Brexiteers longing for a return of the empire and Trump fanatics" because you've not given me any - the persona that comes across since you joined the board is pure, unadulterated "gammon".

Firstly, please explain what's wrong with the word Math ?

Other than that it seems to go in circles because however much I try to engage in polite discussion the more I get personally attacked or accused of being someone else - and I'm beginning to wonder whether that's because he's stood up to the gang of school bullies too!

You're calling me a gammon now, which is a bit racist, but of course you have no idea what race I am. Perhaps you'd like to explain why you made an assumption that I'm white. Next time you watch Cardiff City ,look carefully at some of the players and you'll see that they're black, so I'm surprised again at language like this.

In any case, you've got the same problem of becoming hostile when someone forms a different opinion to the one you share with your own group and the issue in question becomes secondary to your compulsion to silence or drive away the offending thinker.

It's one stage away from forming a mob and stoning someone. I'd say that you should think about that, but I've tried hard enough to engage you in courteous conversation and I'm not at this stage optimistic that this can happen.

I'm also torn between my natural instinct and upbringing to stand up to bullies and the fact that it's often an unpleasant experience to attempt a reasoned conversation here.

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Originally Posted by RonnieBird

Firstly, please explain what's wrong with the word Math ?

Other than that it seems to go in circles because however much I try to engage in polite discussion the more I get personally attacked or accused of being someone else - and I'm beginning to wonder whether that's because he's stood up to the gang of school bullies too!

You're calling me a gammon now, which is a bit racist, but of course you have no idea what race I am. Perhaps you'd like to explain why you made an assumption that I'm white. Next time you watch Cardiff City ,look carefully at some of the players and you'll see that they're black, so I'm surprised again at language like this.

In any case, you've got the same problem of becoming hostile when someone forms a different opinion to the one you share with your own group and the issue in question becomes secondary to your compulsion to silence or drive away the offending thinker.

It's one stage away from forming a mob and stoning someone. I'd say that you should think about that, but I've tried hard enough to engage you in courteous conversation and I'm not at this stage optimistic that this can happen.

I'm also torn between my natural instinct and upbringing to stand up to bullies and the fact that it's often an unpleasant experience to attempt a reasoned conversation here.

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Regarding "math", who uses it in this country? It's an Americanism.

As for "gammon", if it is racist to suggest that your on line persona is suggestive of "middle-aged or older men on the political right or who supported Brexit, in reference to the pink colour of their skin when emotional." (the definition of "gammon" given when I looked it up online just now), then I suppose I'm a racist, but I don't believe it is really.

You then complete the set by saying I'm a bully. Let's look at what I actually said - I said that you adopt a superior attitude when in fact your actions show that you're really down there in the mud with the rest of us. I'm biased a lot of the time and have no problem admitting to that, how is it bullying to say that you are exactly the same as me?

You said rather more than that. I'm obviously going to answer rudeness but if I start any rudeness please tell me - I don't think I do.