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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I agree with the mix of players for this formation has to be right. especially as we are using a double pivot in midfield - if the wing backs are defenders first then we would basically have 7 outfield players to defend and only 3 to attack.
that makes our attacks far too predictable and it is impossible to create any sort of pressure. so the ball is continually coming back at the defence.
when the u23s have used the formation well in recent weeks the wing backs have always joined in the attacks and overlapped. the extra options in attack has meant that when attacks break down its quickly recycled into another attack. we didn't see that at all against Huddersfield.
if the wing backs are too defensive, it is actually worse for our defence, as the whole team gets pinned back.
Good post. Even with four at the back I never really get whether a player like Peltier should be commended for his defensive ability or criticised because he's offering so little going forward that he's inviting pressure up his side.
I certainly wasn't advocating five defensive players in a back five, just saying I haven't got a problem if McCarthy would rather have a full back who can push on than a winger or midfielder in that position. It would seem to offer more flexibility that way if you want to change to a four or if you're under pressure late in a game. As you say though, it does need to be the right type of full back or you're never going to create enough pressure and chances.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
Loramski
Good post. Even with four at the back I never really get whether a player like Peltier should be commended for his defensive ability or criticised because he's offering so little going forward that he's inviting pressure up his side.
I certainly wasn't advocating five defensive players in a back five, just saying I haven't got a problem if McCarthy would rather have a full back who can push on than a winger or midfielder in that position. It would seem to offer more flexibility that way if you want to change to a four or if you're under pressure late in a game. As you say though, it does need to be the right type of full back or you're never going to create enough pressure and chances.
Yep I agree - nothing wrong with it being a full back in there - as long as they are a genuine 2-way player so they can influence the game going forward. Joe Bennett for example was doing really well before his injury.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
Yep I agree - nothing wrong with it being a full back in there - as long as they are a genuine 2-way player so they can influence the game going forward. Joe Bennett for example was doing really well before his injury.
I think him and Ng would've struggled to get forward much on Friday. I reckon the wing backs' effectiveness is largely dependant on the team playing well as a whole rather than the other way round although I might be talking rubbish there.
Highlights of the under-23s win over Watford are here.
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/vide...a-cc2bf408ded3
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loramski
I think him and Ng would've struggled to get forward much on Friday. I reckon the wing backs' effectiveness is largely dependant on the team playing well as a whole rather than the other way round although I might be talking rubbish there.
Highlights of the under-23s win over Watford are here.
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/vide...a-cc2bf408ded3
It was interesting to note that yesterday RB Leipzig, (who play 3-4-2-1 formation that I think clearly indicates that Nagelsmann is a student of the Mick McCarthy way of playing) opted for a winger and a defensive midfielder as their 2 wing backs - and had 2 fullbacks and one centre back in the back 3.
Fair enough that didn't work for them either, but I think it shows the opposite end of whatever spectrum starts with us having 4 centre backs on the pitch + whatever Sang is and ends with their 1 centre back and 2 full backs.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It was interesting to note that yesterday RB Leipzig, (who play 3-4-2-1 formation that I think clearly indicates that Nagelsmann is a student of the Mick McCarthy way of playing) opted for a winger and a defensive midfielder as their 2 wing backs - and had 2 fullbacks and one centre back in the back 3.
Fair enough that didn't work for them either, but I think it shows the opposite end of whatever spectrum starts with us having 4 centre backs on the pitch + whatever Sang is and ends with their 1 centre back and 2 full backs.
Definitely, I can imagine there are plenty of ways to play that system. I've no idea what McCarthy is thinking in terms of next season but playing four centre halves and then having to bring on Pack for Wilson because central midfield is getting overrun is a bit worrying looking forward.
I don't want to be too cynical about McCarthy yet. He can pretty much only play the cards he's been dealt for now, results have been great and he's stuck a couple of youngsters in when Warnock wouldn't have. Hopefully he'll decide there's another answer to the problem of players continually turning over possession other than just bringing on more players to win it back.
He only needs to keep watching the under-23 and Academy games to realise there's a different way forward here. Talented youngsters coming through and some of them have been playing the same kind of football together since they were 7 or 8. As I said earlier, he's watching them play and train regularly now so he'll know what they're about. Even if some of them don't turn out to be as good as expected, the least we should be doing is moving towards a style of play that will give them every opportunity to flourish.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
For those of us who watch our under 23s playing three at the back with wing backs on a good day and hope that is the way Mick McCarthy will go when he’s got chance to start building his own team there are contrasting signals. His championing and inclusion of Aden Flint endorses a three stopper type centre backs approach and based on what we’ve seen of Flint and Nelson in the past eighteen months and Morrison for almost seven years says the sort of playing out from the back that we see from the younger players will not be possible or advised in the first team - it also should be said that our goals for and against with Flint, Nelson and Morrison at the back, albeit over a relatively short time, is very good and there has to be a likelihood that breaking up the current to bring in a “passer” at the back would see a reduction in goals from set pieces.
As for wing backs, I’d say it was more encouraging in terms of playing more football while Ng and Bennett were playing there. I would be in favour of us using two players more at home at full back if those two were available given the general ineffectiveness of our wingers over the past three seasons, but Bennett’s injury has put the kibosh on that. If Osei-Tutu could play on the left, I’d get him in the team as soon as possible to play left wing back, but I wonder about whether he’d be ready to do so much before early to mid April.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
For those of us who watch our under 23s playing three at the back with wing backs on a good day and hope that is the way Mick McCarthy will go when he’s got chance to start building his own team there are contrasting signals. His championing and inclusion of Aden Flint endorses a three stopper type centre backs approach and based on what we’ve seen of Flint and Nelson in the past eighteen months and Morrison for almost seven years says the sort of playing out from the back that we see from the younger players will not be possible or advised in the first team - it also should be said that our goals for and against with Flint, Nelson and Morrison at the back, albeit over a relatively short time, is very good and there has to be a likelihood that breaking up the current to bring in a “passer” at the back would see a reduction in goals from set pieces.
As for wing backs, I’d say it was more encouraging in terms of playing more football while Ng and Bennett were playing there. I would be in favour of us using two players more at home at full back if those two were available given the general ineffectiveness of our wingers over the past three seasons, but Bennett’s injury has put the kibosh on that. If Osei-Tutu could play on the left, I’d get him in the team as soon as possible to play left wing back, but I wonder about whether he’d be ready to do so much before early to mid April.
Ng is comfortable on his left so he could go in there whilst Osei-Tutu goes to right back
Due to his age I imagine Nelson is the safest of the 3 in terms of keeping his place, 27 isn't particularly old for a centre back. Morrison is 30 so we will have to plan for someone to replace him whilst at 31 (32 in the summer) Flint is probably the one who will make way first. Brown is probably lined up to come in for him and would provide more balance to have a left footed player in there. I wouldn't be against trying Pack out in defence in pre season
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
For those of us who watch our under 23s playing three at the back with wing backs on a good day and hope that is the way Mick McCarthy will go when he’s got chance to start building his own team there are contrasting signals. His championing and inclusion of Aden Flint endorses a three stopper type centre backs approach and based on what we’ve seen of Flint and Nelson in the past eighteen months and Morrison for almost seven years says the sort of playing out from the back that we see from the younger players will not be possible or advised in the first team - it also should be said that our goals for and against with Flint, Nelson and Morrison at the back, albeit over a relatively short time, is very good and there has to be a likelihood that breaking up the current to bring in a “passer” at the back would see a reduction in goals from set pieces.
As for wing backs, I’d say it was more encouraging in terms of playing more football while Ng and Bennett were playing there. I would be in favour of us using two players more at home at full back if those two were available given the general ineffectiveness of our wingers over the past three seasons, but Bennett’s injury has put the kibosh on that. If Osei-Tutu could play on the left, I’d get him in the team as soon as possible to play left wing back, but I wonder about whether he’d be ready to do so much before early to mid April.
Yes it is probably naïve optimism on my part that we went to this formation to try and play some more football, rather than to get the maximum number of cloggers on the pitch at the same time.
I live in hope though
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
City’s Under 18s are 1-0 up on Colchester at Leckwith after 45 minutes thanks to a goal by Taz Mayembe.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Finished 5-0, second half goals from Crole, Schwank, Kavanagh and Jones.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Taz Mayemebe, Taylor Jones and Tom Davies named in the Wales Under 18 squad for a game against England on 29 March, but disappointingly, there's no City representation in the Under 17 squad named for a training camp during the international break.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Our under 23s are away at QPR today, kick off 2 o clock - nothing to indicate that QPR will be providing live coverage.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Tomlin starting again for the Development team, but no Osei-Tutu (surely he’s not going to be involved tonight?)Attachment 4361
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Hope Jordi isn’t injured again.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
Stanmore Bluebird
Hope Jordi isn’t injured again.
I suppose there’s three possibilities, he’s injured, he’s still working on his fitness or he’s involved tonight, I’d say that the last one is the outsider of the three.
No score at half time.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I suppose there’s three possibilities, he’s injured, he’s still working on his fitness or he’s involved tonight, I’d say that the last one is the outsider of the three.
No score at half time.
As a regular watcher of U23 games, do we often send first team players away with the U23’s to get fit? Regarding Tomlin- I always presumed clubs arrange home fixtures to get first team players fit and don’t expect them to stay and play away?
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Lost 1 - 0
No idea how long Tomlin played. Very few tweets from the u23s.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zowhore
As a regular watcher of U23 games, do we often send first team players away with the U23’s to get fit? Regarding Tomlin- I always presumed clubs arrange home fixtures to get first team players fit and don’t expect them to stay and play away?
Usually senior players coming back from injury will play 1 or 2 games in development wont they - how many has Tomlin been in now?
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zowhore
As a regular watcher of U23 games, do we often send first team players away with the U23’s to get fit? Regarding Tomlin- I always presumed clubs arrange home fixtures to get first team players fit and don’t expect them to stay and play away?
Mick McCarthy was saying that Osei-Tutu would need to play a couple of Under 23 games after he returned to training last week, so, with the international break coming, it looks like it’s going to be quite well into April if and when he does come into the first team squad.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Some contract signings. Kieron Evans agreeing a two year deal, Keenan Patten a one year deal & a one year deal for Ibrahim Bakare who I assume is the trialist nobody knew?
https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...s-bakare-signs
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
City123
interesting career so far that Bakare.
seems to have gone from something called Mass Elite Academy in London and joined Morecambe as a 16 year old. but he had in his contract that he could go on trial to other clubs and the manager has got tired of him going off on trials every week so he's let him go.
to my very non expert eye, he looked excellent in a back three when on trial with us.
surprised he's only 18 too as he's a big guy. definitely had a bit of a growth spurt since transfermarkt recorded his height as 1.8m.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
City123
Good news and it certainly sounds like Bakere was the trialist. It’s a little bit concerning that there’s no news about Sam Bowen signing a new deal though - hopefully, that will be confirmed soon.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Mick McCarthy was saying that Osei-Tutu would need to play a couple of Under 23 games after he returned to training last week, so, with the international break coming, it looks like it’s going to be quite well into April if and when he does come into the first team squad.
Confirmation it was Arsenal who decided Osei-Tutu shouldn't play yesterday and Curtis Nelson is out of the Swansea match - we're really down to the bare bones at the back.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...-osei-20193057
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
get bakere on the bench :thumbup:
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
get bakere on the bench :thumbup:
Think it'll have to be a youngster if we want to have defensive cover because it's hard to see how we can get a centreback out of the senior players we used last night or those who were on the bench.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Good news and it certainly sounds like Bakere was the trialist. It’s a little bit concerning that there’s no news about Sam Bowen signing a new deal though - hopefully, that will be confirmed soon.
Sadly it don’t look like that will be happening.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
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Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Sadly it don’t look like that will be happening.
Well, City keep on picking him for the under 23s every week and usually players they’ve decided to release drop out of our age group teams around February/March time, so I’m assuming that, if you’re right, we’re in Sion Spence, Harry Pinchard territory again and City are beginning to pay the consequences for not selecting youngsters in their first team for all of those years.
Bowen would be a sad loss if he leaves = there’s always the chance that he wouldn’t be good enough for the first team, but, if he could make the transition, he would go some way towards improving the quality of the passing of the first team squad. Recently, the first team and the Development side have been playing the same formation, but the difference in the quality of the passing between both teams has been like chalk and cheese with the kids both dominating the.ball and playing attractive, effective football - Bowen is a big reason for that in my book.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Well, City keep on picking him for the under 23s every week and usually players they’ve decided to release drop out of our age group teams around February/March time, so I’m assuming that, if you’re right, we’re in Sion Spence, Harry Pinchard territory again and City are beginning to pay the consequences for not selecting youngsters in their first team for all of those years.
Bowen would be a sad loss if he leaves = there’s always the chance that he wouldn’t be good enough for the first team, but, if he could make the transition, he would go some way towards improving the quality of the passing of the first team squad. Recently, the first team and the Development side have been playing the same formation, but the difference in the quality of the passing between both teams has been like chalk and cheese with the kids both dominating the.ball and playing attractive, effective football - Bowen is a big reason for that in my book.
It will be a massive shame. Hes been at the club since hes 7 or 8 and represented Wales at every level up to under 21s.
However, with a couple of young midfielders already been given contract extensions recently - both of whom have been on the bench and one of whom has featured for the first team - all the signs point to him not being in the managers plans as far as first team is concerned, which ultimately at 20 years of age has got to be the aim next season.
Also, im not sure how much importance Mick places on a player of Bowens ability. He seems happy to bypass midfield much like Harris and Warnock.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
it does feel as though it is easier for the bigger/stronger/quicker players to make the step up, rather than the more cultured/skillful. but we aren't alone in that respect.
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Re: The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...
As someone who has watched Patten and Bowen playing together for about four years now, they're a bit like a job lot as far as I'm concerned, they compliment each other really well - I think they both would have played first team football by now in the second tier in a different era.
I don't believe City are prepared to release Bowen because, as I mentioned earlier, he's still being picked for the Under 23s - he played ninety minutes for them on Tuesday.