So you want to stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Do you think that people in Cornwall, Newcastle, Cumbria, Stoke, Shrewsbury and/or Norfolk are all part of the ruling English block? Or is your beef really about the centralisation of wealth in the South East?

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Centralisation of wealth in the South East of England and to a lesser extent the South East corner of Wales as well.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I am an anti-royalist, atheist who doesn't support unelected politicians - but do I detect a "Welsh = good, English = bad" in your recent posts?

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Brussels ?, good night :wave:

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Centralisation of wealth in the South East of England and to a lesser extent the South East corner of Wales as well.

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In the most populous cities in countries then.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

In the most populous cities in countries then.

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That is the way the world is apparently going, its definitely the way the UK is going with power and services being centralised in regional city states with out lying villages and communities left to decline.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

That is the way the world is apparently going, its definitely the way the UK is going with power and services being centralised in regional city states with out lying villages and communities left to decline.

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Twas ever thus. From the days when man changed from a nomadic lifestyle to domesticating animals and planting crops and in the period of the Industrial Revolution when people left rural areas in their droves. People migrated to where the wealth was being created and abandoned the hinterland. Yes, government can intervene in the process to some degree...

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Twas ever thus. From the days when man changed from a nomadic lifestyle to domesticating animals and planting crops and in the period of the Industrial Revolution when people left rural areas in their droves. People migrated to where the wealth was being created and abandoned the hinterland. Yes, government can intervene in the process to some degree...

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Packing cities with more and more people only leads to overcrowded, smog filled slums, but that seems to be what the policies of the major UK parties lead too.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Packing cities with more and more people only leads to overcrowded, smog filled slums, but that seems to be what the policies of the major UK parties lead too.

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So the areas hoovering up the wealth of the country are littered with smog-filled slums...

That outburst was very unfair on Donald Tusk's part, surely endlessly parroting "take back control" and "project fear" constitutes a well thought out plan?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

So the areas hoovering up the wealth of the country are littered with smog-filled slums...

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You forgot the overcrowding bit, so much so that they are even sleeping in tents on the streets.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Whatever side of the debate you are on it is fair to say that the referendum did not clearly state the nature of any version of Brexit was to be voted on and, if anything less than a hard Brexit could be agreed upon, as to whether any version would have been acceptable to the EU. Not only are the proponents of Brexit split in what they want but also as to whether what they want is attainable. As a result we are indeed in an unholy mess at the moment.

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All leave campaigns promised to have deals with the EU. Their manifestos are still online and can be checked. By going no-deal, the country would be going against the wishes of leave voters who voted for the promises they were given in the manifestos of voteleave, leave.eu and voteleavetakecontrol

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Originally Posted by trampie09

You forgot the overcrowding bit, so much so that they are even sleeping in tents on the streets.

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I don't know if you're a WUM or whether you truly believe that overcrowding is the reason for homelessness.
There are many factors in homelessness and overcrowding probably isn't up there.
How about getting:
decent quality affordable housing
Better mental health services
Better addiction services
Better support services for ex-military
Better support services for abused people

I never said any different, its shocking the way Labour and the Conservatives treat certain sections of our community.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

You forgot the overcrowding bit, so much so that they are even sleeping in tents on the streets.

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You really think people are sleeping rough on the streets because of overcrowding? Just to make sure I understand you, can I check a few details in relation to this -

People are sleeping rough because of overcrowding.

Overcrowding means there are no properties available, otherwise people would be living in them.

Therefore, the next step has to be to say that these people have the financial means to be able to live in properties but cannot because there are none available.

So people are sleeping rough, despite having the means and jobs to be able to afford to buy/rent a property, but cannot because there are none available.

So people are sleeping rough, despite having the means and jobs to be able to afford to buy/rent a property a distance away where there are likely to be plenty available, but choose not to in order to save commuting.

So people are sleeping rough, despite having the means and jobs to be able to afford to buy/rent a property, but choose to sleep in tents and go to work in dirty clothes having not washed etc.

Whichever way you look at it, your comment is utter nonsense.

People are sleeping rough for a range of reasons because of successive UK Government policies.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

People are sleeping rough because of UK Government policy.

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I agree with this, though a friend of mine does some work with homeless people in Cardiff. He reckons there's enough space to give them shelter, just that many feel safer on the streets than in shelters. He reckons most of them avoid the Huggard Centre (as one example) because of fears for their own safety.

Solving the causes of homelessness should be a bigger priority than trying to provide for people who are homeless. As rs3100 rightly points out in his list, there are a number of causes. Reducing wealth inequality would certainly help as well.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Are you thinking that the UK would not be able to monitor its own deplorables, or will not be able to monitor any deplorables over the water? I would guess that MI5/MI6 are some of the most revered intelligence experts in the world, and that capability of GCHQ is second to none, they and it were good enough to monitor the other mad Donald.

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It's about intelligence sharing. The intelligence won't be shared with us. Of course, whilst not wanting to denegrate the security services, they failed to monitor the purpetrators of the Westminster attack, the London Bridge attack and the 7/7 bombings. Intelligence gathering and minitoring of suspects requires a collaborative approach, and to cut off one of the best supplies of intelliegnce is not helpfull.

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

How do the USA access this information? We are on the system as them. Are the EU going to stop cooperating with the 5i's? It sounds bizarre that they would do that.

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They have an Intelligence Sharing agreement. We don't.

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Originally Posted by Igovernor

Typical remainers spouting info that is not true, lets carry on letting criminals and terrorists into this country, and tell everyone that it is going to be a disaster when we come out, we voted by a majority to come out, all you remainers get over it, bunch of sore losers who are throwing their toys out of their prams!

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You ask the question, and then don't want to listen to the answers? :hehe::hehe:

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Its bit of kilter from the anti Israel, jewish American,Tory, middle ingerlund posts , you see from the usual suspects. ��

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You seem to have a habit of replying to my posts and referring to the predilections, prejudices and utterings of other posters. Not that I mind, of course :-)

May you have a thousand offspring.

Congress in the USA has 535 members, 100 in the Senate and 435 Representatives. There's over 1,000 more lawmakers here, 650 MPs and over 900 in the Lords. Why Britain requires so many to govern a population one-fifth that of the USA is anyone's guess.

Concerning intelligence agencies, I often wonder why they never theorise over just why it is that ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda, etc, never launch attacks against our Israeli friends. According to a former Israel defence minister, ISIS did mistakenly attack their forces once in the Golan Heights... and then apologised for doing so.

Isis fighters ‘attacked Israel Defense Forces unit, then apologised' claims former commander: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7700616.html

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

It's about intelligence sharing. The intelligence won't be shared with us. Of course, whilst not wanting to denegrate the security services, they failed to monitor the purpetrators of the Westminster attack, the London Bridge attack and the 7/7 bombings. Intelligence gathering and minitoring of suspects requires a collaborative approach, and to cut off one of the best supplies of intelliegnce is not helpfull.

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The American secret services unfortunately must have failed on the 911 attacks and that was about 3,000 dead and 6,000 injured.

Certain things you can share but other things perhaps not, the British and Pearl Harbor, did the British win the war because it happened or was it a conspiracy theory that we knew ?, I don't do conspiracy theories but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if we did know, we just like other countries have to look out for ourselves, from the outside it seems like we trust the Americans far too much, unless we are good at playing the game and let them and everyone else think that, lol.

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

Congress in the USA has 535 members, 100 in the Senate and 435 Representatives. There's over 1,000 more lawmakers here, 650 MPs and over 900 in the Lords. Why Britain requires so many to govern a population one-fifth that of the USA is anyone's guess.

Concerning intelligence agencies, I often wonder why they never theorise over just why it is that ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda, etc, never launch attacks against our Israeli friends. According to a former Israel defence minister, ISIS did mistakenly attack their forces once in the Golan Heights... and then apologised for doing so.

Isis fighters ‘attacked Israel Defense Forces unit, then apologised' claims former commander: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7700616.html

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Its just not Israel its America and the English led UK Government that seem to be on ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda side.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

The American secret services unfortunately must have failed on the 911 attacks and that was about 3,000 dead and 6,000 injured.

Certain things you can share but other things perhaps not, the British and Pearl Harbor, did the British win the war because it happened or was it a conspiracy theory that we knew ?, I don't do conspiracy theories but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if we did know, we just like other countries have to look out for ourselves, from the outside it seems like we trust the Americans far too much, unless we are good at playing the game and let them and everyone else think that, lol.

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The America feeds the UK intelligence too. During the Falklands War they were helping us behind the scenes whilst conveying a more neutral stance on the world stage.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Its just not Israel its America and the English led UK Government that seem to be on ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda side.

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No surprises there then.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

No surprises there then.

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When they had a vote in Parliament about going to war in Syria, the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish mps literally on mass voted against boots on the ground, the English mps voted for war, for once the Celtic mps just managed to win the day, usually that is not the case due to weight of numbers, the English press did not report it in that light.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

When they had a vote in Parliament about going to war in Syria, the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish mps literally on mass voted against boots on the ground, the English mps voted for war, for once the Celtic mps just managed to win the day, usually that is not the case due to weight of numbers, the English press did not report it in that light.

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Wasn't it the case that almost a third of Welsh MPs voted with the government? Something like 15 out of 37? Hardly a landslide.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Wasn't it the case that almost a third of Welsh MPs voted with the government? Something like 15 out of 37? Hardly a landslide.

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Scotland - 49 against war and 7 for war.
Wales - 31 against war and 7 for war [ 2 abstained].
NI - 10 against war and 0 for war.
England - only 195 against war and a whopping 258 for war.

Result 285-272 against the war, there were 3 Lib-Dem mps in Wales in coalition with Cameron and not one voted for him and war, one even voted against him, even a Conservative mp in Wales voted against war, he didn't abstain he voted against, in Scotland there is only one Tory mp and he voted against war, not abstained but voted against (100% of Tory mps in Scotland vote against the war hey), all the SNP and all Plaid mps voted against war, even the DUP voted against war, some abstained and some voted against.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Scotland - 49 against war and 7 for war.
Wales - 31 against war and 7 for war [ 2 abstained].
NI - 10 against war and 0 for war.
England - only 195 against war and a whopping 258 for war.

Result 285-272 against the war, there were 3 Lib-Dem mps in Wales in coalition with Cameron and not one voted for him and war, one even voted against him, even a Conservative mp in Wales voted against war, he didn't abstain he voted against, in Scotland there is only one Tory mp and he voted against war, not abstained but voted against (100% of Tory mps in Scotland vote against the war hey), all the SNP and all Plaid mps voted against war, even the DUP voted against war, some abstained and some voted against.

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Am I missing something (quite possible!) as it states here that 15 Welsh MPs voted in favour of the government? Apols if I'm on the wrong horse. Rushing about, you know :-)

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Am I missing something (quite possible!) as it states here that 15 Welsh MPs voted in favour of the government? Apols if I'm on the wrong horse. Rushing about, you know :-)

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Aug 2013 vote in the HoC Cameron failed to persuade the House to intervene in Syria.

So who wants to remain in the EU then?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

That outburst was very unfair on Donald Tusk's part, surely endlessly parroting "take back control" and "project fear" constitutes a well thought out plan?

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The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards

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Originally Posted by life on mars

The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards

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The reporting of the quote was childlike and pathetic. Tusk's (full) quote spoke of many people's frustration with this shambolic process that has no real end in sight. The Tory press continue to report the EU as the enemy and you (and the OP) seem to buy it. It's dispiriting to see.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards

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He's right though isn't he? Politicians campaigning for something should have some idea how they would go about implementing it. Do you disagree with that?

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Originally Posted by Harry Monk

It's about intelligence sharing. The intelligence won't be shared with us. Of course, whilst not wanting to denegrate the security services, they failed to monitor the purpetrators of the Westminster attack, the London Bridge attack and the 7/7 bombings. Intelligence gathering and minitoring of suspects requires a collaborative approach, and to cut off one of the best supplies of intelliegnce is not helpfull.

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If its a dick waving contest, the brigade across the channel has failed in, France, Belgium, Germany, as a starter for 10, I,m not sure who wants to cut the collaborative approach, is it a policy of the UK to cut collaboration post Brexit ?. Totally agree that a collaborative approach if abandoned is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays

The reporting of the quote was childlike and pathetic. Tusk's (full) quote spoke of many people's frustration with this shambolic process that has no real end in sight. The Tory press continue to report the EU as the enemy and you (and the OP) seem to buy it. It's dispiriting to see.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards

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Over the last few years we’ve had from the likes of Johnson, Farage, Hunt, Rees Mogg references in regards to EU things like Hitler, Nazis, EUSSR and other xenophobic type language.

Tusk said quite rightly that the people who started this process without a plan to ensure safety of UK citizens quite rightly deserve a special place in Hell. I couldn’t. Agree with him more. There was a woman on twitter talking about the fear she has of a no deal die to her medical supplies she’s recliner on.

Imagine the stress she’s under at the moment?

As per usual their was faux outrage and misquotes from the usual sort who are responsible for this mess.

So **** these plastic patriots who I see as committing treason and once they’re ****ed **** them again.

Apologies fir a few typos above

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Originally Posted by trampie09

When they had a vote in Parliament about going to war in Syria, the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish mps literally on mass voted against boots on the ground, the English mps voted for war, for once the Celtic mps just managed to win the day, usually that is not the case due to weight of numbers, the English press did not report it in that light.

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Thinking about the subject in hand, I calculated that, in the EU referendum, of those that voted, once England reached 60% in favour one way or another, the rest of the UK could have voted 100% the opposite way, yet England would have won.

I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed in future referenda. Because of its size, what England wants, it gets. That means the rest of the UK has, in reality, little say. England is never going to agree to diminish its say within the UK, yet that marginalises the rest of the UK.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Thinking about the subject in hand, I calculated that, in the EU referendum, of those that voted, once England reached 60% in favour one way or another, the rest of the UK could have voted 100% the opposite way, yet England would have won.

I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed in future referenda. Because of its size, what England wants, it gets. That means the rest of the UK has, in reality, little say. England is never going to agree to diminish its say within the UK, yet that marginalises the rest of the UK.

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Yip, that needs to be addressed but will they ?

Wales voted to 'leave' the EU but about a quarter of the population of Wales was born in England, would Wales have voted 'Leave' otherwise ?[Scotland hardly has any English born in comparison], also the incomers tend to be old, about half of all over 65s in Wales are from England and the old tended to voted for Brexit.
I felt the UK had the potential to breakup a couple of decades ago, due to Scotland and Wales having to put up with perpetual right wing Westminster Governments after Labour became a right wing party, things have changed over those last 20 years with immigration from England into Wales on the one hand helping too tie Wales to England, but on the other hand the Scots voting for a separatist party in huge numbers and now getting dragged out of Europe against their will after only just missing out on an independence vote after dubious practices and then we have the birth rate in the North of Ireland eating into the unionist gerrymandering figures as well as the Republic doing well and UK not doing so well and they are getting dragged out of the EU against their wishes then the union might well be on its last legs in its present form.

If Scotland and N.Ireland go then what will become of Wales I wonder ?

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Yip, that needs to be addressed but will they ?

Wales voted to 'leave' the EU but about a quarter of the population of Wales was born in England, would Wales have voted 'Leave' otherwise ?[Scotland hardly has any English born in comparison], also the incomers tend to be old, about half of all over 65s in Wales are from England and the old tended to voted for Brexit.
I felt the UK had the potential to breakup a couple of decades ago, due to Scotland and Wales having to put up with perpetual right wing Westminster Governments after Labour became a right wing party, things have changed over those last 20 years with immigration from England into Wales on the one hand helping too tie Wales to England, but on the other hand the Scots voting for a separatist party in huge numbers and now getting dragged out of Europe against their will after only just missing out on an independence vote after dubious practices and then we have the birth rate in the North of Ireland eating into the unionist gerrymandering figures as well as the Republic doing well and UK not doing so well and they are getting dragged out of the EU against their wishes then the union might well be on its last legs in its present form.

If Scotland and N.Ireland go then what will become of Wales I wonder ?

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I can answer the last para ,not very well ,looking at the current part time ,management we have in place.

Unlike Scotland we have no big exports other than farming and financial services, 26% of those employedin Wales are in public sector jobs ,which need self financing, when faced with those public sector burdens, the political pressures become tough, as you need to generate wealth from the private sector though business taxes , or up the tax burden of everyone in Wales to finance it.

Then you have the moans because we pay too much tax , or businesses move away, to avoid things like cooperation taxes.

We need to be careful what we wish for.

We could become a Singapore ,lower business taxes and change politically as a nation and attract business away from England ,however we may then not get a favourable trade tariff from the new non European state of England ,who have their own farmers and financial institutions ,not so easy for Wales in my humble view ??