do you believe in Equal Rights?

[Mrs Steve R]

So, equal rights, lets discuss it.

Personally i believe equal opportunity is totally different to having equal rights. A poor person living on benefits who has not worked for three years and has no intention of doing so, could actually get a low-paid job, and slowly but surely build a better life where he can afford better things.

Im a working class lad who worked hard, with no qualifications, to get a decent life for myself and my family. Council house with a mam and dad who have never even driven a car or been abroad - thats my upbringing, but i worked at it.

Does a person in that same council street i grew up in deserve an automatic right to healthcare? To benefits? To a care home when he 'retires' from benefits - whilst the government will try to screw me for the home i worked hard to pay for to pay any care costs?

I feel this is part of the problem, if everyone decided to really live off the land the natural way they would not be allowed to do so, do you think the people who took those rights away have a duty to feed people in that case?

[Ray Mears]

I feel this is part of the problem, if everyone decided to really live off the land the natural way they would not be allowed to do so, do you think the people who took those rights away have a duty to feed people in that case?

No, nobody took those rights away in the first place, if anything they have improved infinitely since feudalism. I live of the land for a living, and even I don't think its a suitable way to feed yourself as I supplement my income by doing TV work.

[Mrs Steve R]

I feel this is part of the problem, if everyone decided to really live off the land the natural way they would not be allowed to do so, do you think the people who took those rights away have a duty to feed people in that case?

No, nobody took those rights away in the first place, if anything they have improved infinitely since feudalism. I live of the land for a living, and even I don't think its a suitable way to feed yourself as I supplement my income by doing TV work.

[Dr Tim Muff]

[DaFoe] Where does it come from, all this hatred?

[Hackman] You know, when I was a little boy... ...there was an old Negro farmer lived down the road from us, name of Monroe. And he was... Well, I guess he was just a little luckier than my daddy was. He bought himself a mule. That was a big deal around that town. My daddy hated that mule. His friends kidded him that they saw Monroe ploughin' with his new mule... ...and Monroe was gonna rent another field now that he had a mule.

One morning that mule just showed up dead. They poisoned the water. After that there was never any mention about that mule around my daddy. One time we were drivin' past Monroe's place and we saw it was empty. He'd just packed up and left, I guess. Gone up North or somethin'.

I looked over at my daddy's face... ...and I knew he'd done it. And he saw that I knew. He was ashamed. I guess he was ashamed. He looked at me and he said..."If you ain't better than a ******, son, who are you better than?"

[DaFoe] Do you think that's an excuse?

[Hackman] No, it's not an excuse. It's just a story about my daddy.

[DaFoe] Where does that leave you?

[Hackman] With an old man who was so full of hate... ...that he didn't know that bein' poor was what was killin' him.

[the other bob wilson]

So, equal rights, lets discuss it.

So, how many of these feckless, workshy scroungers do you know well enough to be able to state categorically that they spend all of their time taking and none of it putting in? I don't mean people you suspect of doing that or people you've read about in the papers or seen on the TV, I mean people you actually know are doing that..

[alfie sherwood]

There will always be people who take the piss, whether they are super wealthy tax evaders or lazy buggers who don't want to work. In the grand scheme of things I reckon they are a pretty small minority. As TOBW has written, how many 'scroungers' do you know personally?

What is not up for debate is that high end tax evasion and avoidance (estimates anywhere between £30b - £80b annually) costs the public purse far more than benefits cheats (£1.2b annually). That's not to say that we shouldn't go after false benefits claimants but let's keep it in perspective. Far more energy and resource needs to go into closing tax loopholes and introducing more draconian measures to penalise the tax evaders. The selfish, greedy actions of these people are the reason why our health and education systems are not properly resourced.

Don't believe the bollocks spouted in rags with agendas like the Mail and The Sun. These scandal sheets are the enemy of the ordinary person.

[TH63]

There will always be people who take the piss, whether they are super wealthy tax evaders or lazy buggers who don't want to work. In the grand scheme of things I reckon they are a pretty small minority. As TOBW has written, how many 'scroungers' do you know personally?

And I would argue that the former are a bigger drain on the public purse than the latter to be fair.

[Eric Cartman]

There will always be people who take the piss, whether they are super wealthy tax evaders or lazy buggers who don't want to work. In the grand scheme of things I reckon they are a pretty small minority. As TOBW has written, how many 'scroungers' do you know personally?

What is not up for debate is that high end tax evasion and avoidance (estimates anywhere between £30b - £80b annually) costs the public purse far more than benefits cheats (£1.2b annually). That's not to say that we shouldn't go after false benefits claimants but let's keep it in perspective. Far more energy and resource needs to go into closing tax loopholes and introducing more draconian measures to penalise the tax evaders. The selfish, greedy actions of these people are the reason why our health and education systems are not properly resourced.

No they are providing jobs for the little people if you listen to the rhetoric. If we rounded them all up and threw them all into a volcano there would still be demand for goods and services. These people are nothing...

[alfie sherwood]

There will always be people who take the piss, whether they are super wealthy tax evaders or lazy buggers who don't want to work. In the grand scheme of things I reckon they are a pretty small minority. As TOBW has written, how many 'scroungers' do you know personally?

What is not up for debate is that high end tax evasion and avoidance (estimates anywhere between £30b - £80b annually) costs the public purse far more than benefits cheats (£1.2b annually). That's not to say that we shouldn't go after false benefits claimants but let's keep it in perspective. Far more energy and resource needs to go into closing tax loopholes and introducing more draconian measures to penalise the tax evaders. The selfish, greedy actions of these people are the reason why our health and education systems are not properly resourced.

Don't believe the bollocks spouted in rags with agendas like the Mail and The Sun. These scandal sheets are the enemy of the ordinary person.

Unfortunately, most big business leaders and shareholders are so greedy that they'll fight tooth and nail to oppose anything that would see a greater distribution of power and profits. It's worth remembering that we are the 99% and they are the 1%. We have weight of numbers on our side. We would all do well to remember that

[Loya Jirga]

Penguin you are clearly a well balanced man.

But well done Penguin, you are an inspiration to us all.

[Loya Jirga]

Not knowing your situation, how would you feel if you lost your job or were long term I'll with a terrible disease etc. I take you wouldn't claim JSA in the first instance or sickness benefit in the 2nd. Would it then be OK for us to look at you in that situation and say you were a Benefits scrounger, or would your view change then? Not everyone in benefits is a scrounger and they need the healthcare services etc more than people who have good jobs, what about pensioners who retire to Spain on very good pensions but still claim winter fuel allowance. The system is not fair I know but it's not black and white, if it were life would be easier.

Nothing wrong with people claiming benefits who are genuinely ill, im on about people who have been on jobseeking "benefits" for years which are numerous.

If we adopt your plan for not paying people JSA after a certain length of time - how would you cope walking through major cities with beggars outside every store, street kids around every corner and rife petty theft? How do you think tourism in cities like London would be affected with the streets looking like a Charles Dickens novel?

[Loya Jirga]

You have no qualifications so that implies you didn't work hard in school. Why should you have the same rights as those who worked hard in school? Too busy beating up swots and looking out of the window and smoking drugs probably.

Or he's thick.

Why is he thick? Equal opportunities for all should be the aim for society.

I think the OP confuses the abuse of the system with rights given under the system. However it can't be a bad idea that all of us should be given the same opportunities in life.

But, if the system becomes discriminatory, then it will quickly be exploited. Governments have nasty habits of moving goalposts. Suddenly, you may find yourself aged 52, handed redundancy, and unable to get a job for 2 years. Then you would be classed alongside those who abuse the system (unless you want to add some arbitrary parameter that makes you exempt - which would defeat the object) and trying to get a comfortable spot on some spikes on St Mary's Street.

[Sir Sidney Ruff-Diamond]

Not knowing your situation, how would you feel if you lost your job or were long term I'll with a terrible disease etc. I take you wouldn't claim JSA in the first instance or sickness benefit in the 2nd. Would it then be OK for us to look at you in that situation and say you were a Benefits scrounger, or would your view change then? Not everyone in benefits is a scrounger and they need the healthcare services etc more than people who have good jobs, what about pensioners who retire to Spain on very good pensions but still claim winter fuel allowance. The system is not fair I know but it's not black and white, if it were life would be easier.

Nothing wrong with people claiming benefits who are genuinely ill, im on about people who have been on jobseeking "benefits" for years which are numerous.

If we adopt your plan for not paying people JSA after a certain length of time - how would you cope walking through major cities with beggars outside every store, street kids around every corner and rife petty theft? How do you think tourism in cities like London would be affected with the streets looking like a Charles Dickens novel?

[The Penguin]

So, equal rights, lets discuss it.

Personally i believe equal opportunity is totally different to having equal rights. A poor person living on benefits who has not worked for three years and has no intention of doing so, could actually get a low-paid job, and slowly but surely build a better life where he can afford better things.

Thats not an equal society. That is grand larceny on an industrial scale.

[Loya Jirga]

So, equal rights, lets discuss it.

Personally i believe equal opportunity is totally different to having equal rights. A poor person living on benefits who has not worked for three years and has no intention of doing so, could actually get a low-paid job, and slowly but surely build a better life where he can afford better things.

Im a working class lad who worked hard, with no qualifications, to get a decent life for myself and my family. Council house with a mam and dad who have never even driven a car or been abroad - thats my upbringing, but i worked at it.

What is your opinion on the benefit system overall? Do you, at least, concede that it benefits more people than it has abusing it?

[Eric Cartman]

So, equal rights, lets discuss it.

Personally i believe equal opportunity is totally different to having equal rights. A poor person living on benefits who has not worked for three years and has no intention of doing so, could actually get a low-paid job, and slowly but surely build a better life where he can afford better things.

Im a working class lad who worked hard, with no qualifications, to get a decent life for myself and my family. Council house with a mam and dad who have never even driven a car or been abroad - thats my upbringing, but i worked at it.

The elderly care thing is an issue. Don't forget though, it wont just be 'scroungers' who are getting their care for free. There will also be people far far richer than your mother-in-law getting their care for free because they have 'managed their money/assets' to their fullest advantage. Judging by your previous posts in this thread you probably respect that kind of behaviour though.

[the other bob wilson]

So, equal rights, lets discuss it.

Personally i believe equal opportunity is totally different to having equal rights. A poor person living on benefits who has not worked for three years and has no intention of doing so, could actually get a low-paid job, and slowly but surely build a better life where he can afford better things.

Im a working class lad who worked hard, with no qualifications, to get a decent life for myself and my family. Council house with a mam and dad who have never even driven a car or been abroad - thats my upbringing, but i worked at it.

So this cousin of yours has a twenty two year old son, so I'm guessing he's in his forties and you say he has been living off benefits for twenty years or more?