The best and brightest in society

[archibald leitch]

The question I am asking is how do we attract the best to the uk public sector so that it can start delivering quality services that we all deserve rather than placing focus on ensuring every little piece of paper work is completed even if it's to the detriment of the end result.

So are the accountants working in the public sector not the best, in your opinion?

they are the best at accounting for public finance. for anything else, I'd say they're probably not the best.

A very sweeping generalisation about thousands of people you know **** all about. Not really surprised though.

CIPFA is a very specific qualification, and I stress the very because it is geared around public finance.

Dont worry, I am not going to get sucked into another one of your three page arguments where you claim to know about things cos you have flown over them or try to deny scientific facts just to avoid accepting you are wrong.

[Feedback]

Wrong?

I am stating facts here archie. No cipfa accountants are represented in the FTSE. It's a qualification for public finance and doesn't place focus on what's important in business.

All the six institutes will have a core grounding in accountancy (double entry etc) but that's where the similarity ends.

Your continued reference to people aren't stats on spreadsheets is droll and tedious. The only person who has ever referenced people in this way is you. You claim I have no real life experience yet I've worked in this profession for two decades with hundreds of accountants including some cipfa in the public sector. My opinion is based on real life situations - whilst technically proficient cipfa accountants lack commercial awareness whereas your opinion is based on the public sector and it's workers can do no wrong

[archibald leitch]

Feedback. One question. Do you accept that all human beings are individuals with their own unique sets of skills and abilities?

A short yes or no will do.

[Feedback]

Yes

What has that got to do with cipfa accountants being specialist in public finance but not much else?

[archibald leitch]

Yes

If all human beings are individuals, all your arguments in this thread are void and the only thing you have confirmed is that this whole thread is pointless. (As if it needed confirming).

[Feedback]

Yes

What has that got to do with cipfa accountants being specialist in public finance but not much else?

That has nothing to do with whether cipfa is a specialist accountancy qualification for public finance.

[archibald leitch]

According to this report today the nations top graduates are of the impression that to make a difference in this world they need to work in investment banking, accounting or law with graduates giving the public sector a wide swerve.

The second thing that strikes me, after looking into 'high fliers research' is that they must be one of the most pointless companies in the country, adding nothing to society and simply a way of the old boys network avoiding getting a job. The idea that anyone gives importance to anything they say is frankly flaberghasting.

[Feedback]

According to this report today the nations top graduates are of the impression that to make a difference in this world they need to work in investment banking, accounting or law with graduates giving the public sector a wide swerve.

It's clear that our best talent consider working for the state in delivering public services is a waste of their own potential. Such a snub is a damning indictment of the uk public sector and it's lack of ability in delivering results, getting things done and making a real difference towards people's lives.

That's just the way life is, no one said it was going to be fair.

[archibald leitch]

According to this report today the nations top graduates are of the impression that to make a difference in this world they need to work in investment banking, accounting or law with graduates giving the public sector a wide swerve.

It's clear that our best talent consider working for the state in delivering public services is a waste of their own potential. Such a snub is a damning indictment of the uk public sector and it's lack of ability in delivering results, getting things done and making a real difference towards people's lives.

Anyone who has ever had to deal with the uk state and it's vassals will appreciate the byzantine approach to getting anything done with all focus placed on ticking those boxes rather than looking at the reality presented before them. What is needed is bright young talent to come in - a new broom sweeps clean - to re-energise a slow and laborious culture than Eminates from the top down.

If there are facts and irrefutable evidence, instead of just telling us that, why not present some facts and evidence. To date, none have been provided by you.

[blue sky]

I will post this here as well - an article on the parasitic nature of the relationship between accountants and the state:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/13/account ants-audit-corruption-fraud

Read the scathing comments below the article at the link.Here is the full text:

"The UK has about 50,000 family doctors, but nearly 280,000 professionally qualified accountants (pdf), often earning exorbitant salaries. That is almost the highest number per capita in the world and more than the rest of the European Union put together. Unsurprisingly, nearly 165,000 students are registered with the UK accountancy trade associations to become professional accountants. In addition, probably more than 100,000 are studying for accounting and business degrees at UK universities and colleges, dwarfing the numbers studying engineering, mathematics and sciences. A record number of graduates are making a career in accounting.

"This huge social investment in accountants and accounting technologies has not resulted in the publication of sensible company accounts, or worthwhile company audits (pdf), as evidenced by the banking crisis and other scandals. Many accountants do a valuable job, but excessive reliance on accounting has not given us freedom from fraud or produced ethical and responsible corporate conduct. If anything, accounting firms have undermined national tax revenues and used their expertise to excel at money laundering, bribery, corruption and other antisocial practices (pdf).

"Accountants are in demand because accounting technologies are at the heart of contemporary business practices. As enterprises keep track of their financial performance, they turn to accountants. In the surveillance society, one set of accountants prepares accounts. Then another set, often labelled "internal auditors", arrives to see that organisational procedures are complied with. Subsequently, another set labelled "external auditors" arrive to tell the first two that all was well. When businesses go belly-up, another set of accountants, this time acting as insolvency practitioners, arrive to downsize or liquidate the business.

"If there is a major business collapse and the stench of scandal is too strong, the government manages it by appointing inspectors to investigate the entity. As the state has failed to build an investigative capacity, it often turns to accounting firms to investigate the failure of other accountants. Organisations go from cradle to grave with only one certainty that they will generate fees for accountants.

"Accountants have colonised the state to carve out niches. There are no state-guaranteed markets for mathematicians, scientists, designers, information technology experts and other wealth generators, but accountants belonging to a select few trade associations enjoy the state-guaranteed monopoly of insolvency (they share this with law practitioners) and external audits.

"The sick are not required by law to consult doctors and the injured are not compelled to employ lawyers to seek redress, but most companies are required to have a financial audit by an accountant, even though they deliver little. Universities, schools, hospitals, housing associations, charities and other entities are also required to submit to an audit. The state-guaranteed monopolies are not accompanied by any performance or value-for-money indicators. Governments do not allow anyone to sell packets of crisps or sweets without owing a "duty of care" to current and potential customers, but millions of people are expected to invest their pensions, savings and investments in companies whose auditors owe them no "duty of care".

"The state-guaranteed market of auditing gives accountants easy access to senior management in companies and to sell consultancy. Inevitably, they recommend the use of more accounting technologies. The demand for accountants is also strong because unlike many other countries the UK has historically failed to develop adequate management training programmes accounting qualifications have functioned as management training. One outcome of this is that management problems are diagnosed through the lens of accounting, resulting in the recommendation of accounting technologies and fuelling the demand for even more accountants. It is noticeable that the UK corporate governance codes revolve around accounting practices rather than considering alternative board structures, or rights for stakeholders.

"Government departments have been colonised by accountants and accounting technologies with little evidence of any improvement in government accountability or performance. Accounting firms are major beneficiaries of the state feeding of consultants . They collect vast fees from privatisations, botched or otherwise the National Health Service, Private Finance Initiative, government call centres, the London Olympics and data security even though they manage to lose laptops. This provides the springboard for them to spread even more accounting-think.

"There is an urgent need to examine the UK's obsession with accounting, especially as it has failed to deliver the promised advances in business transparency, accountability and good governance. The huge social investment in accounting is stunting the development of other sectors of the economy and alternative forms of governance, and that cannot be good for the future of any society."

[Feedback]

that article is a little out of date, not too dissimilar to your views really.

[blue sky]

that article is a little out of date, not too dissimilar to your views really.

You are a MASSIVE troll - as evidenced by these latest threads - with a personality disorder and I just don't like your behaviour. I think that you are a snob, a show-off, a bigot and a bully. I'm sure that you have good qualities but you rarely display them online, and from what I've seen and heard of you in real life you think way too much of yourself and way too little of anyone else.

[Feedback]

that article is a little out of date, not too dissimilar to your views really.

I don't care about accountancy at all. It is very boring. I'm an opponent of the UK state because I want independence for Wales.

let me make a suggestion, you're free to ignore it of course...why not ignore what I write, you clearly are a very sensitive little soul who takes things a little too seriously.

[archibald leitch]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

[Feedback]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

All I do is post my opinion. If people get upset that's their issue and not mine.

[Elysium]

that article is a little out of date, not too dissimilar to your views really.

I don't care about accountancy at all. It is very boring. I'm an opponent of the UK state because I want independence for Wales.

[blue sky]

that article is a little out of date, not too dissimilar to your views really.

I don't care about accountancy at all. It is very boring. I'm an opponent of the UK state because I want independence for Wales.

I'm not left or right wing and I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that politicians are usually corrupted by power to some extent. I've been a member of Plaid Cymru for many years and although there are many well-meaning foot soldiers the party has been taken over by the so-called progressive, politically-correct EU-philes, via the organisation Common Purpose.

It's been going on since about 2004. So there you go.

[archibald leitch]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

All I do is post my opinion. If people get upset that's their issue and not mine.

This board is supposed to be light relief, not a chore and daily conflict. I bet you managed to drive children away from your local playground as well. But that was their problem, not yours. You create your own problem though when no one will play with you, especially when you ignore the reasons why.

[blue sky]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

All I do is post my opinion. If people get upset that's their issue and not mine.

And it is that attitude that has resulted in it no longer being possible to have a civilised debate on here.

Watch now, he will reply that he isn't trolling..

[Feedback]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

All I do is post my opinion. If people get upset that's their issue and not mine.

And it is that attitude that has resulted in it no longer being possible to have a civilised debate on here.

Have I got this right

[Feedback]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

All I do is post my opinion. If people get upset that's their issue and not mine.

And it is that attitude that has resulted in it no longer being possible to have a civilised debate on here.

This board is supposed to be light relief, not a chore and daily conflict. I bet you managed to drive children away from your local playground as well. But that was their problem, not yours. You create your own problem though when no one will play with you, especially when you ignore the reasons why.

Am I not entitled to voice an opinion in the same way that everyone who starts a thread does?

[archibald leitch]

Fair play to you feedback. You do have a knack for bringing out the worst in people. Hope you enjoy it.

All I do is post my opinion. If people get upset that's their issue and not mine.

And it is that attitude that has resulted in it no longer being possible to have a civilised debate on here.

This board is supposed to be light relief, not a chore and daily conflict. I bet you managed to drive children away from your local playground as well. But that was their problem, not yours. You create your own problem though when no one will play with you, especially when you ignore the reasons why.

What a sad and vacant life you must have to need to start these threads to entertain yourself.

[Feedback]

Lots of people disagree with each other here and remain civilised. Do you really think it is just a coincidence that you generate more conflict and more aggression with more people than any other poster on this board?

I remain civilised. it is not me that resorts to petty insults. if you want to see what insults are, have a look at Blue Sky's posts.

If you think my posts are agressive then I can't help you. They certainly aren't aggressive from my point of view and I'd be interested to see if you could provide examples of how my written word can be passed off as aggression.

You don't just give opinions, you present opinions as irrefutable evidence and back them up with links that actually contradict you opinions then claim people who do not understand you are stupid.

that;s just not true. I present an opinion and then back up my position with reasoning. That doesn't make my opinion correct but its certainly a lot better than your 'that's all bollocks' approach.

You twist people's words and misquote in a desperate attempt to prove you are right and will argue over everything even when the facts clearly demonstrate you are wrong.

I can't believe you of all people suggest I twist words. how you have the temerity to say that is lost on me. You also set your stall out by saying 'I am wrong'. There is no right or wrong with opinions yet you conveniently dismiss that maxim.

You seem to think you're right but you can't see the hypocrisy in you suggesting only your opinion can be correct then accuse me of being unable to accept I am wrong.

I still chuckle when I think about you disputing the boiling temperature of water and the claim that no street lights have been switched off cos you have flown over the country and seen them all switched on.

1. water can boil at any temperature above 3 degrees centigrade. that is a scientific fact. it is called the tripoint of water and its the temperature which all three states can co-exist. adding further information in this way is not arguing, its elaborating.

I thought you were against personal insults? Can you clarify if you are or if you aren't as I'm not so sure following this last comment. It would help if we could define the rules so we all know what game we are playing. It seems you're unsure yourself so I will let you decide the rules so you don't feel aggrieved. I'd hate you to become upset over something so inconsequential as an internet post but given your behaviour and how you react to my posts (and the evidence is here in this thread) I've not got a clue on how you will react.

[archibald leitch]

QED.

To be honest, I was trying to help you. I guessed I was wasting my time but thought it worth a try. Just carry on your own sweet way and see how it pans out. Such a shame, the days when you used to engage in civil debate were quite interesting, but are now just a distant memory.

[Feedback]

I still engage it civil debate.

I don't need your help. Try not to be so conceited.