Dirty Ched, The Verdict.

[TruBlue]

Do we know if there was (still) consent right at the point where sex commenced?
If so, then that is all there is to it between her and Macdonald - at that time.

However, 'how about it then'? - yeah OK' in a bar sometime earlier doesn't stand as 'in the bag' for Macdonald for the rest of whole night. (let alone 'phone a friend').
She can change her mind. (as can he!)

Only if that consent is revoked or expired or doesn't cover 'other events' does it become something more sinister.

I was referring to consent with Evans according to Macdonald.

I seem to remember the court papers saying she couldn't remember, which is different to saying "no". Especially when the only other witnesses say she did consent.

The part that sits most uncomfortably is that the emphasis was onto Evans to decide how sober she was, when it's proved she hadn't been drugged so it was stuff she'd drunk. If she is comatose then yes he's clearly a rapist, if she's drunk and consenting I think it's down to the individual.

The whole thing leaves more questions than answers.

[Arfur Europe]

The prosecution case apparently had holes all the way through it, was inconsistent regarding the other bloke being let off, the girl didn't appear 'hammered' on the video, and the new evidence has been talked about in very strong terms since the middle of last year. The girl also didn't help her case when she allegedly gloated on FB the following morning about making a load of money from this event and even offering to take friends on luxury holidays with the proceeds. That was quickly deleted, but I wonder if this constitutes some of the new evidence that's been reported?

On the moral side, Ched had everything going for him at that time and so the mind boggles why he'd feel the need to get himself anywhere near such a situation. With his fame and profession, he shouldn't have had any problems finding consensual ladies to get aquainted with.

Even failing that, on his salary he could've easily hired as many high class escorts as he liked. A bizarre situation all round but hopefully the fully truth will now come out and the right decision will be arrived at, whether that be a rejection of his appeal or upholding the original conviction.

[BobbyBlue]

Unlucky Ched me ol' china.

Good spot Jeff.

[blue sky]

I've read the transcript of the original trial.

Ched incriminated himself. The girl had absolutely no memory of going to or being in the hotel. She woke up with no idea how she had got to the hotel, having wet the bed.

The hotel staff called the police who then found the two footballers. Clayton McDonald and Ched both told the police that CM had been having sex with the girl when Ched asked if he could join in and both CM and CE said that the girl had enthusiastically said "yes."

This has not been disputed. Ched was convicted because the prosecution contended that even if the girl has said "yes" she was way too drunk to know what she was doing.

The digital evidence was not Facebook it was Twitter. A New York firefighter who had become involved in the 911 "truther" movement happened to read about this case and did some investigation. He found, in google's French cache of Twitter posts, tweets from the girl about "winning big."

http://chedevans.com/the-disputed-tweets

[TH63]

Which of us hasn't gone out on the lash on a Saturday night and hooked up with a girl? Any Friday/Saturday night most of the people pouring out of clubs are half-pissed, and we've ALL done something after a few beers that we might not have if we'd been sober.

None of us really know what went on, and what, if anything, was agreed between the relevant parties, but I'm glad I'm a happily married middle-aged man, otherwise I'd be worried about going anywhere with a girl unless she'd passed a drink/drugs test and signed a contract.

[neilw65]

What is the new evidence?

As Arfur Europe said below, the investigation by the police was fundamentally flawed as well as the way the defence was conducted. He reviewed the conviction, tracked down new evidence and potential new witnesses.

This person was a police officer with 30 years service who has investigated serious crimes and led investigations into rape and sexual offence cases. As I said, he firmly believes that Ched Evans is Innocent of rape and I would suggest that with his knowledge and background, he would have a better understanding than most of us on this board

[Auntie Andy]

I've read the transcript of the original trial.

Ched incriminated himself. The girl had absolutely no memory of going to or being in the hotel. She woke up with no idea how she had got to the hotel, having wet the bed.

The hotel staff called the police who then found the two footballers. Clayton McDonald and Ched both told the police that CM had been having sex with the girl when Ched asked if he could join in and both CM and CE said that the girl had enthusiastically said "yes."

This has not been disputed. Ched was convicted because the prosecution contended that even if the girl has said "yes" she was way too drunk to know what she was doing.

The digital evidence was not Facebook it was Twitter. A New York firefighter who had become involved in the 911 "truther" movement happened to read about this case and did some investigation. He found, in google's French cache of Twitter posts, tweets from the girl about "winning big."

http://chedevans.com/the-disputed-tweets

The tweets were 5 months after the event, the girl could have been talking about anything.

[blue matt]

This person was a police officer with 30 years service who has investigated serious crimes and led investigations into rape and sexual offence cases. As I said, he firmly believes that Ched Evans is Innocent of rape and I would suggest that with his knowledge and background, he would have a better understanding than most of us on this board

you must be crazy, dont you know CCMB have every leading expert in every field on here

[My Name is Dave.]

The woman in charge of hearing the case was responsible for over turning Sam Hallams prosecution - the youngest person to have a mis-carriage overturned...

[blue sky]

Here's the appeal court transcript of the original trial:

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-...-chedwyn-evans

[Heathblue]

Agreed, but, she could have also been talking about stitching up a footballer

[lardy]

Agreed, but, she could have also been talking about stitching up a footballer

Could be this, could be that ... which makes it pretty weak evidence if it can't be shown what she was referring to.

[Croesy Blue]

Agreed, but, she could have also been talking about stitching up a footballer

But the compensation she would receive doesn't depend on the income of the person committing the crime?

As said above Ched's undoing was his own fault because his statement incriminated him.

People always say we've all done this on a night out, but have we really? I've slept with plenty of women but never one who was too smashed to concent. I can't think of anything worse than shagging someone that drunk.

I think the notion of concent is what confuses most people, if a girl is in no fit state to make a decision then even saying yes doesn't really count as consent.

I do feel sorry for Ched though, such a silly mistake to make and one that could ruin his life. Surely as a footballer it's easy to pull a really fit girl anyway without going through the weird shenanigans him and his pal went through? I mean it's easy enough to pull a decent girl without being rich and famous ffs, why footballers keep putting themselves in compromising positions like this is beyond me.

[TruBlue]

But the compensation she would receive doesn't depend on the income of the person committing the crime?

As said above Ched's undoing was his own fault because his statement incriminated him.

People always say we've all done this on a night out, but have we really? I've slept with plenty of women but never one who was too smashed to concent. I can't think of anything worse than shagging someone that drunk.

I think the notion of concent is what confuses most people, if a girl is in no fit state to make a decision then even saying yes doesn't really count as consent.

I do feel sorry for Ched though, such a silly mistake to make and one that could ruin his life. Surely as a footballer it's easy to pull a really fit girl anyway without going through the weird shenanigans him and his pal went through? I mean it's easy enough to pull a decent girl without being rich and famous ffs, why footballers keep putting themselves in compromising positions like this is beyond me.

If you've shagged a girl who has been drinking and said yes to it, you are putting yourself at the same risk as Evans is claiming to have done.

How could you know if she is going to remember it the next morning?

[TH63]

But the compensation she would receive doesn't depend on the income of the person committing the crime?

As said above Ched's undoing was his own fault because his statement incriminated him.

People always say we've all done this on a night out, but have we really? I've slept with plenty of women but never one who was too smashed to concent. I can't think of anything worse than shagging someone that drunk.

I think the notion of concent is what confuses most people, if a girl is in no fit state to make a decision then even saying yes doesn't really count as consent.

I do feel sorry for Ched though, such a silly mistake to make and one that could ruin his life. Surely as a footballer it's easy to pull a really fit girl anyway without going through the weird shenanigans him and his pal went through? I mean it's easy enough to pull a decent girl without being rich and famous ffs, why footballers keep putting themselves in compromising positions like this is beyond me.

Well if she's comatose then obviously she can't consent, but if she's just had a few sherbets, bearing in mind you have too, how could you possibly tell, beyond all doubt, that she knows what she's doing? How could you possibly know that if she was sober, she wouldn't want to?

I know I've slept with women and woken up wishing I hadn't.

[Croesy Blue]

I suppose there's always a risk you've just got to use good judgement, I think you can usually tell if someone is absolutely hammered or just a bit drunk.

And even if they change their mind the next morning the fact they were happy to go home with you etc means you'll unlikely get convicted because there's plenty of evidence to show the consent was there. Sneaking into a hotel room during her sleeping with someone else and joining in without even meeting her prior is not something I've done, that's where the risk lies not the sleeping with someone who's drunk.

[neilw65]

you must be crazy, dont you know CCMB have every leading expert in every field on here

Good point well made

[Richyrich]

If she's sober enough to bend down on her haunches in high heels and pick up a pizza box she's sober enough to consent in my book.

[Croesy Blue]

If she's sober enough to bend down on her haunches in high heels and pick up a pizza box she's sober enough to consent in my book.

bloody hell, let's be thankful you aren't a law maker.

Here's a good video about consent for the confused in here - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

[TruBlue]

bloody hell, let's be thankful you aren't a law maker.

Here's a good video about consent for the confused in here - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

It misses out the part where the person asks for Tea but then doesn't remember asking for tea the next morning.

Is the person who made them the Tea then at fault?

[Richyrich]

bloody hell, let's be thankful you aren't a law maker.

Here's a good video about consent for the confused in here - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

You try it after a few!! It takes very good balance.

The law used to be, you just had to"walk the line" to determine if you were sober enough to drive so balance is not a bad indicator of drunkness.

Also you do realise the girl was enthusiastic during the "rape"? "**** me harder" isn't the thing you usually hear from someone in the middle of a "rape".

[Croesy Blue]

In the eyes of the law yes, although it's a complicated issue. Sneaking into the hotel room mid act makes it even more complicated for ched

I'd love for him to be innocent but I can completely see why he's been convicted. But it's obviously poor judgement on Ched's part, it's easier to tell if someone is in a state to consent when you've been talking to them, it's almost impossible to judge in the situation they were in.

[Croesy Blue]

You try it after a few!! It takes very good balance.

The law used to be, you just had to"walk the line" to determine if you were sober enough to drive so balance is not a bad indicator of drunkness.

Also you do realise the girl was enthusiastic during the "rape"? "**** me harder" isn't the thing you usually hear from someone in the middle of a "rape".

I agree it's complicated but I can see why he was convicted. No one is saying he's a violent rapist but how much she's getting into the act has nothing to do with if she was in a state to consent.

On New Year's Eve I managed to (poorly) clean up my flat after my party including taking rubbish out and vacuuming despite being able to remember **** all and sending my Mrs' sister a dirty text. The tasks you can perform while hammered prove nothing, why do you think the walking the line isn't used any more?

[Richyrich]

In the eyes of the law yes, although it's a complicated issue. Sneaking into the hotel room mid act makes it even more complicated for ched

I'd love for him to be innocent but I can completely see why he's been convicted. But it's obviously poor judgement on Ched's part, it's easier to tell if someone is in a state to consent when you've been talking to them, it's almost impossible to judge in the situation they were in.

That's a fair comment but the jury had the testimony of the porter who listened at the door and said he heard "enthusiastic sex" which backs Ched's and Clayton's testimony. I struggle to find how the jury found him guilty.

[Richyrich]

I agree it's complicated but I can see why he was convicted. No one is saying he's a violent rapist but how much she's getting into the act has nothing to do with if she was in a state to consent.

On New Year's Eve I managed to (poorly) clean up my flat after my party including taking rubbish out and vacuuming despite being able to remember **** all and sending my Mrs' sister a dirty text. The tasks you can perform while hammered prove nothing, why do you think the walking the line isn't used any more?

Because breathalyzers were invented.