Reply With QuoteI don't like Ken Livingstone at all , I think he drags the party down , he's always given me the creeps
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I don't really know where I stand on this whole anti-semitic shitstorm but the amount of labour mp's who think their job is to sit around on Twitter waiting to be offended by something is quite astounding. It is also incredible how many of them think Ken should be suspended and John Mann should be celebrated for shouting 'nazi sympathiser' in the full glare of the press. Nonsense.
The plp are a complete shambles, no wonder the members went completely against their MPs when electing corbyn. There is an infinite amount of residual bitterness left in the plp about the leadership election.
Some of my family are members, I think my views tend to align more with labour than any other political party but they are a complete rabble at the moment.
I don't like Ken Livingstone at all , I think he drags the party down , he's always given me the creeps
Labours support is full of anti-semites. Labour has big backing from the muslim population, and large chunks (not all) are openly haters of jews. Its common racism amongst them that and being sexist.
Left is racist arabs and east asian
Right is racist whites.
BullshitOriginally Posted by Barry Dragon
And for the record, I believe in a two state solution with regards to Israel and Palestine. Jews are our brothers/sisters
When labour decided to court the muslim vote and cosy up to its so called community leaders this problem was always going to bite it on the arse,hating the jews is part and parcel of islamic life,after all it's in their book of fairy tales.
Eric is right. The parliamentary party is a shambles at the moment. It's at a time when they should be smashing this useless Government. Instead they are infighting with precious little sign of unity.
With all that is going on with the NHS and the Referendum Labour should be miles ahead in the polls. Massive opportunity to smash the Tories going wasted. And other parties are sitting there doing nothing whilst both are falling apart at the seams. Big opportunity to score some votes going wasted from all sides.
I don't believe labour have an issue with antisemitism at all. It is completely against the principals of the left.
I think there are plenty of people on the left who want to speak out against Israel, and undoubtedly on occasion, when it is carelessly worded, or poorly thought out this can be interpreted as racism, but I don't think that is the overriding intention of the people involved in the vast majority of cases.
I do wish some of them would think before opening their mouths more though. And I definitely agree with the person who said that there are labour MPs who are looking for every opportunity to criticise their own party at the moment, it does reek of bitterness and superiority.
Not so much over this issue, as this is controversial and always likely to provoke differing opinions, but on a number of trivial issues recently there have been labour MPs scrambling on.Twitter to be the first to lose their shit over it, they need to put a stop to it happening in public.
Spot on
I agree with most of that.
Livingston should be suspended and investigated, and probably thrown out (again) His comments (more than Naz Shah's) on Hitler's alleged support for Zionism are a total distortion of historical events (the Haavara agreement between the Nazis and German Zionists in the early 1930s) and were an infantile attempt to provide cover for Naz Shah. As I understand it, apart from the silly re-tweet of the Israel to the USA as 51st state (a comment on political and cultural alignment) combined with offensive language, she was 'guilty' of accusing the Israeli government of acting to the Palestinians like the Nazis to the Jews. That is just wrong. The Israeli government is (in my view) racist and has introduced apartheid policies - but that no way equates to Nazism. She was right to apologise.
Livingston is right that allegations of anti-semitism have been used for 40 years to silence critics of Israel, and more recently there has been a co-ordinated attack on those who challenge the ideology of Zionism by saying that every reference to Zionism is actually a reference to Jewish people. This is particularly insidious in the attacks on Jewish anti-Zionists and supporters of Palestinian self-determination (orthodox Jews as well as those on the anti-imperialist left) who are labelled 'self-haters'. The stupidity of Livingston and some of his supporters just gives credence to those attacks.
That said there is a problem with some members and supporters of the Labour Party who blur the lines between opposition to Israel and the ideology of Zionism and opposition to Jewish people they see as part of some international conspiracy. Some are outright anti-semitic. There is a network of pro-Israel lobbies based mainly in the USA but also in Europe and elsewhere. They are not secret lobbies. However, when people start to talk about a Jewish Lobby they cross a line, like opponents of ISIS or Assad or the Saudi regime who describe their opposition or hatred in relation to Muslims or Arabs. That whole toxic mix of racism, fear, confusion and gagging needs to be discussed and resolved in a serious way - with expulsions if necessary - but I don't have much hope for an adult and informed debate.
Too much of what has happened in recent days and months has been about public relations, the Labour Party civil war with a large minority of MPs out to get back at Corbyn, the London mayoral campaign with race and racism allegations at its heart, and the Tories jubilant that their own EU civil war (along with claims of anti-semitism across all parties) has been pushed off the front pages. John Mann and his cronies (Chris Bryant, Michael Dugher, Chris Evans....) are disgraceful in a different way from Livingston - but seem to have got away with staged attacks in front of TV cameras and twitter abuse.
Deeply depressing.
Brilliantly put Jon.
Should be sent to Corbyn and all members of the PLP.
Well said Jon. As you say deeply depressing
There does seem to be one rule / law for racist remarks / descriptions towards Muslims , and one that seems to tolerate remarks / descriptions for the Jewish race .
astonishing
It is astonishing. Very powerful - especially the personal experiences she recounts. It is also a completely dishonest and one-sided account of the Lebanese civil war and its back-story. Lebanon was not an 'Eden', even if it was the 'Paris of the Middle East'. The Maronite Christian ruling elite was not even handed or representative. There were atrocities on both sides, but I still remember the BBC news coverage of mass murders of Palestinian refugees by the Falangists in the mid-1970s. It is interesting, and contains some truths, but is also propaganda.
I haven't seen Livingstone or the other suspended MP's direct quotes but as far as I can work it out the latter has been suspended (and encouraged to make a very humble apology) for stating that Israel moving to America would solve the problems in the Middle East and possibly also that Hitler's actions weren't illegal, although the second one may have come after when the press went digging for more.
I don't think they sound so awful. Definitely poorly worded and ignorant but not the offensive language I expected when learning their was accusations of anti-Semitism (which I'm fairly sure covers the Palestinian people as well) in the Labour party.
I wonder what is the number of those MP's criticising this Labour person for her comments and what is the number for criticising Israel for building and developing into neutral and Palestinian territory?
I think we need to be clear here , the extreme right in Israel have treated the Palestinians disgracefully since the formation of the state of Israel .....land grabbing , forcing more and more new settlements in the area , breaking the Geneva convention .......just like America ......on numerous occasions
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist .......the facts speak for themselves .....it is a war and the Palestinians are massively outgunned
But what will be the outcome ? Now Israel has been created only a two state solution is the answer but extremists on both sides will never allow that to happen .........have the Zionist extremists behaved in a way similar to the far right in Europe in the thirties and forties ? Too fecking right they have .....do we need idiots hurling insults when people need to talk ? Too fecking right we don't
Whilst chaos rules there will never be peace , one day Israel will flatten its surrounding foes and its new borders will become the next battleground
As for Livingstone , Bryant and all those on both sides of the debate chucking mud like little kids its pathetic
"I don't believe labour have an issue with antisemitism at all. It is completely against the principals of the left."
I nearly choked on my cheese sandwich when I read that. W-H-A-A-T!!
As the great Mr McEnroe might have put it," You cannot be serious!" The hard-left have always had an issue with Jews. I seem to remember Joe Stalin, who could have been considered somewhat left-wing, exterminated quite a few of 'em. This current lot disguise their anti-Semitic loathing by pretending it's all to do with the State of Israel, the only democratic nation in the Middle East and a good friend of the US, so automatically qualifying it as a hate symbol to the Left. Loathsome, aka 'cuddly', Ken has form on this topic. Very awkward for Mr Corbyn....oh, dear. By the way I think you mean 'principles'.
So are you seriously suggesting that someone left wing who is critical of Israel's bombing of the Gaza and gradual seizure of land occupied by Palestine is anti Jewish? What a load of bollocks
He's a Tory who will willingly jump on anything potentially negative with Labour.
What a dangerously stupid man you are.
Such a shame Burnham didn't get the labour leadership, comes across so well every time I see him talk. He's been excellent on question time tonight.
I consider myself left wing, and I know a number of others who do also, and I don't think any of them loathe Jewish people. I certainly don't.
Almost all of them have a deep dislike of the actions of the Israeli state though.
Anyone criticising israel these days seems to have to walk a bit of a tightrope, you'll get people wanting to defend israel interpreting your comments as racist in order to discrdit them. Youll also get racist extreme right wingers / racist extreme islamics (strange bedfellows!) wanting to interpret your views as racist as it then appears to confirm their ghastly views/agenda.
Then if you're an MP you'll get the press going to town on it, the opposition doing the same, and more recently other factions in your own party making damn sure that thy extract as much possible offence from it.
That said, it should be possible to choose your words more carefully if you know you're in a public position. We should be able to expect better
He was excellent at PMQs the other day talking about hillsborough, as was yvette cooper tbf talking about the disgraceful decision to turn away child immigrants.
I think Corbyn is diong a good job though
A large number of the Bolshevik party members were Jewish or of Jewish origin, and an even higher proportion of the Politbureau - Trotsky, Larine, Zinoviev....
Karl Marx was from a Jewish family.
From personal experience I believe that a disproportionate (to population) number of Jewish people were active members of, or leaders of, left wing groups in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s. Many were leading members of the Palestine solidarity movement. I never came across anti-semitism in those groups and organisations at that time. Anti-racism, anti-fascism and anti-semitism was in their DNA.
Israel's role as a strategic ally and regional proxy of the USA has certainly affected the was it is seen by left wing activists, but that is based on analysis of Israel's political role as well as its treatment of Palestinians in the Gaza and West Bank cantons, its Arab 'citizens' and of its neighbours - not on the ethnicity or religious beliefs of the Israeli people. There have always been strong links between European left wing groups and parties and those Jewish individuals and organisations within Israel who are opposed to the policies and ideology of their government - a collaboration based on a shared political view.
There clearly have been a few examples in recent years of anti Israeli views warping into anti-semitism amongst some supporters of Stop The War and similar campaigns, and also some examples of people and organisations believing 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' with embarrassing or dangerous results. But don't try to pretend that reflects the principles, ideas or history of 'the left'. It doesn't.
How's the cheese sandwich?
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