Well well well - who who have guess this - NET migration hits a record HIGH of 330.000 ?

[rudy gestede]

With respect the same applies to the pro immigration lobby. I am fairly neutral on the subject but would like to hear from the pro immigration people in the IN Campaign how the points I made in my earlier post can be answered. Whether IN or OUT of the EU immigration will rise so I would like to know from the IN Campaign about the plans they have for building houses, hospitals, training GPs and Doctors as well as other essential services to cope with an influx that will rise by at least 3 million within the next 10 years. As flaky as the OUT Campaign is I really think the same applies to those advocating REMAIN.

We do need slightly stricter rules on immigration but it isn't as big an issue as is being made out. A lot of skilled migrants are necessary to fill those roles you mention so being completely anti immigration while stressing those points is a bit of a misnomer.

[Heathblue]

Can the immigration haters explain how we are going to fund our ever growing elderly population without immigration?

What's an immigration hater?, is someone who feels that, there should be a little bit better control of immigration fall into your sweeping statement an immigration hater?

[blue matt]

We do need slightly stricter rules on immigration but it isn't as big an issue as is being made out. A lot of skilled migrants are necessary to fill those roles you mention so being completely anti immigration while stressing those points is a bit of a misnomer.

here is the issue i have, how many are SKILLED ? ? ?

we are told the NHS would collapse if it wasnt for the immigrants, would it ? ? ? a small % go and work for the NHS, lets be honest here, alot of the immigrants ( economic ) are un / semi skilled and end up in the service industry

I am sure most of the " anti immigration camp " would agree with the need for SKILLED workers to do jobs that either the UK cannot do or choose not to do ( which if they choose not begs the question why ? ? ) this has never been the issue

the issue is the unskilled people walking around town with nothing to do, I am going to Bournemouth this weekend, 2 people have warned me about the immigrants wandering around the town, by all accounts B-mouth has a issue with them at the mo

[Vindec]

We do need slightly stricter rules on immigration but it isn't as big an issue as is being made out. A lot of skilled migrants are necessary to fill those roles you mention so being completely anti immigration while stressing those points is a bit of a misnomer.

......except the majority of immigrants from the EU are either unskilled or low skilled. The skilled immigrants - doctors, computer scientists etc come mainly from countries outside the EU and should of course be welcomed with open arms. However, the main problem is with immigration from countries within the EU which we cannot control.

[rudy gestede]

There was only 150,000 net immigration from inside the eu last year according to the link in the OP is that really a huge issue? Genuine question, it doesn't seem a huge issue with a country with a population of 65 million.

[rudy gestede]

here is the issue i have, how many are SKILLED ? ? ?

we are told the NHS would collapse if it wasnt for the immigrants, would it ? ? ? a small % go and work for the NHS, lets be honest here, alot of the immigrants ( economic ) are un / semi skilled and end up in the service industry

I am sure most of the " anti immigration camp " would agree with the need for SKILLED workers to do jobs that either the UK cannot do or choose not to do ( which if they choose not begs the question why ? ? ) this has never been the issue

the issue is the unskilled people walking around town with nothing to do, I am going to Bournemouth this weekend, 2 people have warned me about the immigrants wandering around the town, by all accounts B-mouth has a issue with them at the mo

Where are you getting all this information and statistics from? How do you know this? Or is it all anecdotal like your Bournemouth opinion?

[Colonel Cærdiffi]

This is my experience of debates with lots of people who are anti-immigration - start questioning things and they have no answers.

Suffice

[blue matt]

Where are you getting all this information and statistics from? How do you know this? Or is it all anecdotal like your Bournemouth opinion?

would a doctor who has come over from a EU country really be serving me in Wagamama's ?? ? ( a meal we had 2 weeks ago, where we spoke to 3 members of staff and all 3 were eastern European ) or Franky and Benny's ( a meal we had last Sunday where 4 out of 5 who interacted with us were eastern European, the other was Chinese as it happens ) , yes its anecdotal, I wonder if we have had a scientific study on the amount from eastern europe who are really doctors but chose to work serving me a fanta

as for the B-mouth, i havent seen it, i will be happy to comment on it after this weekend, but i guess what i see with my owns eyes will far too anecdotal for you so will not matter

[rudy gestede]

I don't understand your problem with foreign people working in basic service jobs here? There isn't a shortage of Service jobs, they aren't jobs most British citizens want full time hence why they are filled with immigrants with plenty of part time shifts filled by students.

Something isn't anecdotal if you've seen it yourself btw.

[xsnaggle]

That sounds more of an employment law problem rather than immigration. If these complaines are employing people cash in hand and paying lower than minimum wage that's the real problem. You can't blame the non British citizen for taking the job that they need, you have to blame whoever is offering the job.

In 99% of jobs this would be impossible anyway, you can only get this in the few cash in hand jobs that are illegally available.

If you honestly think there only a few jobs in UK that can be paid cash in hand you are either blind or stupid.
This has nothing to do with race or immigration, it is about benefits and avoid paying the minimum wage. fault on both sides. you go to any "One man band" house building site in S Wales and I'd put money there are people there taking cash in hand. i have even known men disappear with the boss's blessing on a Thursday morning to "Sign on". you could list jobs like these all day. black and white taxis with one registered driver that is driving 24/7 by other non-licenced drivers. People odd-jobbing around places, keeping up richer folks' large gardens, crop pickers, (Maybe not in S Wales ) window cleaners, people collecting and selling-on pallets, fly-tippers etc. etc.
There are literally thousands of jobs like this "on the black' as they used to say. Part of the reason for it is that people who are on benefits who find employment immediately have certain benefits stopped, so instead of being idle they go and find a 'job-on'the'side' to augment their income. A dodgy builder would rather pay a benefit claiming brick layer 50 quid a day than pay him the rate he would get legit.
Because of the nature of this kind of work it attracts people who do not have the necessary papers to get a work permit and so the process is perpetuated.
It's not nice and it aint pretty but it is a fact of life in UK and has been for many many years. All the shouts of "Its a MW enforcement problems' and the wringing of hands will never stop it. As long as there is work to be done there will be someone who for some reason is prepared to do it cheaper.

[rudy gestede]

Also I'd like to point the irony of going to a Japanese and Italian chain restaurant and complaining about being served by foreigners.

[Vindec]

There was only 150,000 net immigration from inside the eu last year according to the link in the OP is that really a huge issue? Genuine question, it doesn't seem a huge issue with a country with a population of 65 million.

Even if the figures are as low as you quote there are issues underlying the numbers quoted that show that the long term trend is unsustainable unless governments plan for the influx in a more considered way. Further analysis of the figures shows the situation is potentially more serious according to the BBC (link below) which if anything leans towards REMAIN despite its supposedly neutral stance. Some points which seem relevant are:

1. That 270,000 EU citizens moved to the UK for at least a year in 2015, up from 264,000 in 2014. The number of non-EU citizens moving to the UK was 277,000, down from 287,000 in 2014.

2. One really interesting figure, that doesn't affect the population headcount - officially at least - is the 110,000 rise in short-term immigration to about 1.2m. More people are coming for less than a year - such as short contract workers selected by employers who are looking internationally for the best people at the most competitive price.

3. The ONS state that estimated employment level of EU nationals (excluding British) living in the UK was 2.1 million in January to March 2016 - 224,000 higher than the same quarter last year, according to the Labour Force Survey

4. There were 630,000 National Insurance number registrations by EU nationals in the year to March 2016, an increase of 1,000 on the previous year. For non-EU nationals, there were 195,000 registrations, an increase of 2,000 on the previous year.

5. The article is here......................http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36382199


Now if somebody can convince me that these numbers are not of concern especially in the longer term I am all ears. There is absolutely no point in putting our heads in the sands by saying the numbers are not significant as they clearly have implications - serious ones - for infrastructure including the NHS and schools etc. We even have 10000 overseas nationals in our prisons which we are unable to deport all of which come at a cost.

The essential issue is that we need better control and we cannot do that while remaining in the EU. Of course the IN/OUT debate is wider than immigration but you can't blame the OUT Campaign for concentrating on immigration as that is their one trump card.

[rudy gestede]

If you honestly think there only a few jobs in UK that can be paid cash in hand you are either blind or stupid.
This has nothing to do with race or immigration, it is about benefits and avoid paying the minimum wage. fault on both sides. you go to any "One man band" house building site in S Wales and I'd put money there are people there taking cash in hand. i have even known men disappear with the boss's blessing on a Thursday morning to "Sign on". you could list jobs like these all day. black and white taxis with one registered driver that is driving 24/7 by other non-licenced drivers. People odd-jobbing around places, keeping up richer folks' large gardens, crop pickers, (Maybe not in S Wales ) window cleaners, people collecting and selling-on pallets, fly-tippers etc. etc.
There are literally thousands of jobs like this "on the black' as they used to say. Part of the reason for it is that people who are on benefits who find employment immediately have certain benefits stopped, so instead of being idle they go and find a 'job-on'the'side' to augment their income. A dodgy builder would rather pay a benefit claiming brick layer 50 quid a day than pay him the rate he would get legit.
Because of the nature of this kind of work it attracts people who do not have the necessary papers to get a work permit and so the process is perpetuated.
It's not nice and it aint pretty but it is a fact of life in UK and has been for many many years. All the shouts of "Its a MW enforcement problems' and the wringing of hands will never stop it. As long as there is work to be done there will be someone who for some reason is prepared to do it cheaper.

It still fail to see how any of this is the fault of immigrants, menial cash in hand jobs have been going on forever in this country and would still be going on without immigrants.

Are you really saying that the people collecting and selling on pallets and fly tipping are keeping People out of a job?

[xsnaggle]

Also I'd like to point the irony of going to a Japanese and Italian chain restaurant and complaining about being served by foreigners.

Why do you do that?

[rudy gestede]

Of course we can get better control whilst being in the eu, it just needs a decent government to do it.

Everyone no matter how pro immigration they might be understands that whilst other borders in the world exist we need to control ours. Being in or out of the EU isn't the end of this issue either way, we need a strong government who put sensible controls in place.

As I've said before there are many reasons for being pro or anti eu but immigration is a minor one compared to bigger issues.

[Vindec]

Of course we can get better control whilst being in the eu, it just needs a decent government to do it.

Everyone no matter how pro immigration they might be understands that whilst other borders in the world exist we need to control ours. Being in or out of the EU isn't the end of this issue either way, we need a strong government who put sensible controls in place.

As I've said before there are many reasons for being pro or anti eu but immigration is a minor one compared to bigger issues.

So the numbers are of concern?

[lardy]

There is no other country in the world that I can think of that has unfettered immigration - and getting a new city of 330,000 people each year should NOT be the norm.

You said this before and I asked what you meant but don't think I had a reply. What do you mean? Are you suggesting the uk is the only country in the world that has completely uncontrolled immigration?

[chris]

Pensioners need economic migration more than most as otherwise our top heavy population won't be making enough through tax to pay pensions.

Also pensioners will never be the first to be cut off as they vote.

pensions will be virtually obsolete in 20 - 30 years time apart from the very well off, much can be said of most of the welfare state, the retirement age will rise to 70 plus. this country cannot employ enough young people of workable age now, immigration on the scale it is now, will only compound the problem

[tommy31]

The logic is that if an employer can employ an illegal immigrant and pay him less than the minimum wage it means he does not have to employ a legal immigrant or British National to do that job.
therefore the legal person who should be working is unemployed and claiming all the benefits he/she is entitled to. So it follows that the illegal worker is a drain on the economy of the country and puts an extra burden on those in work legally who have to pay for all the benefits.

That's the criminal employers fault, not the worker. So in the case you've given, the employer is taking advantage of the situation and not abiding by the law. Whether of not the worker was from Cardiff or Berlin or Athens or Sydney, this would still be the case, it wouldn't be the workers fault at all. You are blaming the wrong people.

[blue matt]

I don't understand your problem with foreign people working in basic service jobs here? There isn't a shortage of Service jobs, they aren't jobs most British citizens want full time hence why they are filled with immigrants with plenty of part time shifts filled by students.

.

Yet,. once again, these are un / semi skilled people who would never pass the Australian points system entry ( which has been discussed in this thread ) as i said in my previous post, most anti-immigration folk wouldnt mind if the immigrants were skilled and we needed that skill, its fairly easy to understand

[blue matt]

Also I'd like to point the irony of going to a Japanese and Italian chain restaurant and complaining about being served by foreigners.

shall i try the local harry ramsdens, good old british fish and chips it doesnt make any difference

[rudy gestede]

Yet,. once again, these are un / semi skilled people who would never pass the Australian points system entry ( which has been discussed in this thread ) as i said in my previous post, most anti-immigration folk wouldnt mind if the immigrants were skilled and we needed that skill, its fairly easy to understand

3 people I went to school with got zero qualifications and now work as unskilled labourers so I think the points system isn't as easy as you think.

Austrailia are also the country that have left refugees from Afghanistan and Iraq almost go insane on an almost uninhabitable islands off their coast after they were saved from a sinking ship, so you will forgive me for not being 100% behind the Australians with how they treat human beings.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...devoid-of-hope

[rudy gestede]

shall i try the local harry ramsdens, good old british fish and chips it doesnt make any difference

The irony is amazing surely even you can see that?

[lardy]

FAO Lardy re "You said this before and I asked what you meant but don't think I had a reply. What do you mean? Are you suggesting the uk is the only country in the world that has completely uncontrolled immigration?"

Sorry what I meant was - EU has open access to any country for any of it' citizens - the problem is - it's not 1 country, and it's not a level playing field. There are different currencies for a start, different economies and very different standards of living. So the UK with a strong currency, a living wage of £7.20 soon to £9 an hour, housing benefits, child tax credits etc etc - is a strong pull to anyone in Romania for example where the average is around £2.50 per hour.

Because of this it has an impact on the UK (just as it does Romania) - therefor in the interests of all countries in the EU - immigration to and from each country or zone if you want needs to be controlled.

Japan doesnt allow free movement of people to and from South Korea or China that I am aware of - and the same anywhere else. America doesnt allow unfettered immigration of people to and from Canada or Mexico. Migrant workers is a different story - people who come in - do work and then go back is not immigration.

Maybe in the long distant future when the EU economy is one homogeneous economic zone then it may work - but at the moment it seems to be causing far too much damage. But that long distant future seems to be a long way off and not worth it - to me anyway.

So when you say there's no other country in the world with 'uncontrolled immigration' you mean the other 25 odd in the eu also have it. Even then, we're not part of schengen so we're already stricter than them.

There's lots of holes to be picked with uk immigration without resorting to massive exaggeration

[blue matt]

The irony is amazing surely even you can see that?

i can see why you think its Ironic , yes

The restaurant doesnt really matter though does it, the argument is still the same, which i notice you really have no answer for, 7 out of the 8 who interacted with us at 2 places were from eastern europe doing a un / semi skilled job, of course you may argue, yes but they were all Doctors / Nurses / dentists or architects just waiting till they could get the job they want