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Thread: My take on a second eu referendum

  1. #1

    My take on a second eu referendum

    The problem as I see it with the first EU referendum, was that there wasn't much clearly defined on either side of the argument to tell us what we were actually voting for.

    This information vacuum was hastily filled with speculation, rumour and misinformation, and it still isn't clear today what the overall result of either decision would be, so it was a process that was fatally flawed from the start.
    As it is it looks like we are going to end up leaving the EU but at a greater cost than previously indicated and potentially without having any effect in immigration, which doesn't seem like it's what anyone voted for.

    If a second referendum was held, it would be completely pointless to ask the same question as that would be subject to the same speculations and weaknesses.

    If a second referendum was going to be held it would have to be after the option or options for leaving or staying were fleshed out in detail and costed then people coukd have something concrete to vote for, not sone empty rhetoric.

  2. #2

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    The options for voting could be :
    1. Leave the EU and no freedom of movement at X cost to the economy

    2. Leave eu, but maintain freedom of trade / movement of people at Y cost

    3. Remain in the status quo. In eu, freedom of movement but no shengen or Euro at z cost.

    4. Deeper integration into Europe, shengen and euro etc. At w cost to the economy.

    Any business worth its salt wouldn't be making this kind of decision without knowing as many of the facts as possible before hand, and even once they had made a decision, they wouldn't be completely committed to it if it emerged that the decision process was flawed.
    So why in running a country do we accept a weaker decision making process.

  3. #3

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    You (and most others) have no way of guaranteeing what the cost would be.
    You are also missing the point - the EU vote was NOT only about economics - it was about immigration and the control of it and becoming an independent nation with a sovereign parliament.

    There was a vote (like there was in the 70's) and there was a result (like there was in the 70's vote). Accept or campaign against it, but you cant keep on having vote after vote until the outcome is something you like. Very similar to Corbyn and his leadership challengers.
    You cannot be sure of the economic impact, but that isn't a reason to discount it completely, especially when that was a highly registering reason for people wanting to leave (I.e. the phantom £350m a week).

    I think that an independent body should have been set up to provide estimates on the impact of each decision with error bars which the campaign teams would have had to sign up to.
    If we end up leaving the eu but keeping freedom of trade and the single market then many people who voted leave won't be getting what they voted for either.
    A referendum where it is clear what you are voting for is definitive abd here would be no point in re running it no matter what the outcome. The referendum we got doesn't seem to have been a definitive decision on anything, because it was so flawed, and it looks like almost nobody will be getting what they thought they were voting for.

  4. #4

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    The problem as I see it with the first EU referendum, was that there wasn't much clearly defined on either side of the argument to tell us what we were actually voting for.

    This information vacuum was hastily filled with speculation, rumour and misinformation, and it still isn't clear today what the overall result of either decision would be, so it was a process that was fatally flawed from the start.
    As it is it looks like we are going to end up leaving the EU but at a greater cost than previously indicated and potentially without having any effect in immigration, which doesn't seem like it's what anyone voted for.

    If a second referendum was held, it would be completely pointless to ask the same question as that would be subject to the same speculations and weaknesses.

    If a second referendum was going to be held it would have to be after the option or options for leaving or staying were fleshed out in detail and costed then people coukd have something concrete to vote for, not sone empty rhetoric.
    Brexit is looking better and better as each day passes. Economy is improving on so many levels, were we not meant to have a horrible crash??

    And apparently many many people did vote for the migration reasons.

    There are alot of games to be played out between EU and the UK. EU saying no access to single market without free movement, we retort with, okay so single market is off the table, we will have import duties on all the things you sell to us. Its a game being played out. Each trying to not to give anything away for free too early on.

    I would agree that people will finally learn what a vote to stay in and a vote to leave actually means. It was never fleshed out for the referendum, it was a terrible way to go about it.

  5. #5

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Perhaps we can have a referendum to decide if we should have a referendum?

    My guess is only people who didn't get their own way would want another go?

    It's done. We voted to leave.

  6. #6

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    It would be dreadful for democracy if we had another Euro referendum. I voted Remain but would abstain out of protest if there was another referendum on the issue.

  7. #7

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabalphaville View Post
    It would be dreadful for democracy if we had another Euro referendum. I voted Remain but would abstain out of protest if there was another referendum on the issue.
    This.

    I voted to leave (despite not being 100% convinced) but if we had to do it all again I wouldn't vote on principle.

    If politicians give the people a choice then they have to go with the decision made. Otherwise don't give peope a say in the first place.

  8. #8

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    This.

    I voted to leave (despite not being 100% convinced) but if we had to do it all again I wouldn't vote on principle.

    If politicians give the people a choice then they have to go with the decision made. Otherwise don't give peope a say in the first place.
    This.

    A bloke in the pub said to me the other night, and I'm not making this up "Brixet (sic) has been good so far, we did well at the commonwealth games and everyone seems happy"

    Of course he was in his 70's, so chances are he won't have to live with the full impact of his vote.

  9. #9

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    This.

    A bloke in the pub said to me the other night, and I'm not making this up "Brixet (sic) has been good so far, we did well at the commonwealth games and everyone seems happy"

    Of course he was in his 70's, so chances are he won't have to live with the full impact of his vote.
    maybe he wont live to see the benefits of his vote, economy seems to be surging ahead if ( and its a big IF to most of the regular politics forum posters) MSN can be believed

  10. #10

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    If Brexit goes well then things will stay roughly the same. If it goes badly then it will be a disaster - ageing population, immigration has become a dirty word, companies leave, the educated young grads/workforce who have been hammered by successive governments refuse to pick up the bill and move somewhere more prosperous.

  11. #11
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    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    This.

    I voted to leave (despite not being 100% convinced) but if we had to do it all again I wouldn't vote on principle.

    If politicians give the people a choice then they have to go with the decision made. Otherwise don't give peope a say in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    This.
    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-...572EF8FC490082


  12. #12

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Population projections made for scary reading pre-brexit. If we are due some token clamp down on inward migration then we are in a sticky situation.

  13. #13
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    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    We never had an options when Joining, a simple yes/no

  14. #14

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    There was loads of information available if you looked for it. If you just watched the BBC or followed the mainstream media, then not so much.

  15. #15

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Packerman View Post
    maybe he wont live to see the benefits of his vote, economy seems to be surging ahead if ( and its a big IF to most of the regular politics forum posters) MSN can be believed
    I wouldn't believe anything what Microsoft said
    Last edited by Wales-Bales; 05-09-16 at 18:00.

  16. #16

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    I don't expect there to be another referendum at all. And it's not cut and dry that the result would be any different.

    I just find it interesting that if uk PLC was a business we would certainly be at least having another look at the decision once the details had been fleshed out a bit more, nobody runs a business like that. You start a project, then plan it out and see if it still worthwhile doing.
    Is there a reason why countries need to be less well run?

  17. #17

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    I don't expect there to be another referendum at all. And it's not cut and dry that the result would be any different.

    I just find it interesting that if uk PLC was a business we would certainly be at least having another look at the decision once the details had been fleshed out a bit more, nobody runs a business like that. You start a project, then plan it out and see if it still worthwhile doing.
    Is there a reason why countries need to be less well run?
    If the UK PLC was run as a business it would mean a select few would accumulate all the wealth, while making decisions that were to the detriment of the vast majority.

  18. #18

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    If the UK PLC was run as a business it would mean a select few would accumulate all the wealth, while making decisions that were to the detriment of the vast majority.
    What if the vast majority were the shareholders, like John Lewis?
    Plus we get a 25% discount.

  19. #19

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    What if the vast majority were the shareholders, like John Lewis?
    Plus we get a 25% discount.
    Has anybody notified Mr Rothschild?

  20. #20

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    While a second EU referendum is unlikely I do think we should be able to vote for which party we wish to deliver it before it happens, and this should include parties who don't want out at all.

    If, for example, you wished to have Theresa May as PM you would have to contend with her seemingly being against freedom of movement almost totally* (unless you are connected enough to have a high paying job offer), wants to scrap the Human Rights Act and wants to buddy up to China which, while can offer massive investment, has a poor record on climate change (one of the biggest challenges) and human rights.

    *Farage and co were going on about a points based system to secure our borders but also open up to the World however it was May who wished to introduce a 35k threshold for non-EU settling in the UK. How many on here earn 35k a year?

  21. #21

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Yeah I know... but in our democracy, we elect a government to make informed intelligent decisions on our behalf.
    In this instance, we allowed "the people" to make a decision that the majority were ill equipped to make.
    In some instances (as in the example I mentioned previously), "the people" shouldn't be trusted with deciding what to have for tea.

  22. #22

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    Yeah I know... but in our democracy, we elect a government to make informed intelligent decisions on our behalf.
    In this instance, we allowed "the people" to make a decision that the majority were ill equipped to make.
    In some instances (as in the example I mentioned previously), "the people" shouldn't be trusted with deciding what to have for tea.
    So lets have a dictatorship and let em decide everything for us

  23. #23

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Packerman View Post
    So lets have a dictatorship and let em decide everything for us
    I'm not saying that, but where do you draw the line? You can't have a referendum on every single decision the government (that WE elected) make.

  24. #24
    International Mrs Steve R's Avatar
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    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    Yeah I know... but in our democracy, we elect a government to make informed intelligent decisions on our behalf.
    In this instance, we allowed "the people" to make a decision that the majority were ill equipped to make.
    In some instances (as in the example I mentioned previously), "the people" shouldn't be trusted with deciding what to have for tea.
    Would they have been ill equipped if the decision had gone the other way though?

  25. #25

    Re: My take on a second eu referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Democracy is the worst form of Government except all for those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

    It's not up to you to decide what is a good or bad decision - it's the collective mind of a nation. There is no such thing as good or bad in this context - just varying degrees of success or failure
    Nonsense. I am in charge of what I think and say. If I think something is a bad decision, I can say it.

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