The Bluebirds Academy and DVP thread...

[Cyncoed Slumdog]

Not a former player but Rhys Healey scored on his loan debut for Torquay before being sent off in a subsequent game.
I'm also curious to know how Tyrone Duffus is doing at Hereford. He looked good for our U23's and started well at Hereford but I think was injured early in his loan spell.

[Loramski]

Not a former player but Rhys Healey scored on his loan debut for Torquay before being sent off in a subsequent game.
I'm also curious to know how Tyrone Duffus is doing at Hereford. He looked good for our U23's and started well at Hereford but I think was injured early in his loan spell.

Duffus went back to Hereford having recovered from a hamstring injury but went off after half an hour of his comeback game, a knee injury I think. I saw him on crutches at the CCS in January so I assume his season was over then. I agree with you, he did look good for us and I'd like to think he'll be back here next season.

I mentioned Rhys Healey on here the other night. He got a hat-trick on Tuesday in a shambolic Torquay home defeat against Guiseley, who had a player sent off after 3 minutes but still won 4-3. Rhys was described as admirable but then I've never seen a bad word said about him as a player or a person during any of his loan spells. Of course he should be scoring at that level but he always applies himself wherever he goes and seems to earn a lot of respect. I pointed out that he's now played in the top five divisions (as well as the Scottish and Welsh Premier Leagues) but, largely due to his injuries, we're still not quite sure what his level is. He deserves some luck, hopefully he'll push on next season.

[the other bob wilson]

I see Baker was an unused sub at Wolves for Sheffield Wednesday yesterday - hopefully, he'll get some game time next week.

[Blue in the Face]

I see Baker was an unused sub at Wolves for Sheffield Wednesday yesterday - hopefully, he'll get some game time next week.

Apparently that's eight times across the season that he's made the bench for a Wednesday league game which would suggest he isn't merely making the bench because of a rare collection of injuries. He's also just signed a two and a half year contract extension.

Did you feel we let him go too early? Or has he merely bloomed since leaving us?

[Loramski]

I see Baker was an unused sub at Wolves for Sheffield Wednesday yesterday - hopefully, he'll get some game time next week.

Bit of an odd one this. Wednesday only needed a point to win their under-23s league on Friday but Baker was pulled out of that to join up with the first team squad and then left on the bench. The under-23s lost 2-1 which not only cost them the title but second place too (Notts Forest overtook them on goal difference while Bolton won the league) so they didn't even make the play-offs. Apparently, Baker was due to make his first team debut recently but fell ill on the day of the game. Maybe next week, as you say.

Jarrad Welch scored (another) good goal yesterday in a man of the match performance for Weston. I never saw him play here but I remember you saying you rated him. I know Des Parrot was impressed with him at Cinderford last season and said he'd had a trial at Bournemouth. He seemed to leave here under a cloud but he's establishing himself at non-league level now, I wonder if a bigger club will come in for him in the close season.

[the other bob wilson]

Apparently that's eight times across the season that he's made the bench for a Wednesday league game which would suggest he isn't merely making the bench because of a rare collection of injuries. He's also just signed a two and a half year contract extension.

Did you feel we let him go too early? Or has he merely bloomed since leaving us?

Maybe we didn't let him go, it might be that Wednesday offered him a better deal? If it was our decision not to offer him a new contract, then I'm surprised, because I always thought he was among the best players in that particular group of Academy youngsters.

[Blue in the Face]

WALES YOUNGSTERS HEAD TO THE SLOVAKIA CUP
(Lots more details in the link)...
http://www.faw.cymru/en/news/wales-y...en/news/&pos=1

u19s Squad

George Ratcliffe (CARDIFF CITY)
Adam Przybek (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Connor Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Ryan Reynolds (CARDIFF CITY)
Jay Foulston (NEWPORT COUNTY)
Morgan Boyes (LIVERPOOL)
Nico Williams (LIVERPOOL)
Brandon Cooper (SWANSEA CITY)
Luke Jephcott (PLYMOUTH ARGYLE)
Pablo Martinez (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Keenan Patten (CARDIFF CITY)
Isaak Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Jack Vale (BLACKBURN ROVERS)
Rueben Duncan (MILLWALL)
Elliott Thorpe (TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR)
Callum Watts (SOUTHAMPTON)
Ben Cabango (SWANSEA CITY)
Mason Jones Thomas (SWANSEA CITY)
Sam Bowen (CARDIFF CITY)
Lewis Collins (NEWPORT COUNTY)

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Maybe we didn't let him go, it might be that Wednesday offered him a better deal? If it was our decision not to offer him a new contract, then I'm surprised, because I always thought he was among the best players in that particular group of Academy youngsters.

His talent is to be honest irrelevant.

The question is how many would be above him with regards to playing in the first team; I recall he's more a right back so Peltier, Manga, Richards etc. It's silly to keep someone on just for the sake of it.

EDIT: Loramski's post from 26th April just shows the club have been effectively right in releasing players we have, regards of people's views on them.

It shows there's a vast gulf between Academy levels and real football.

[the other bob wilson]

WALES YOUNGSTERS HEAD TO THE SLOVAKIA CUP
(Lots more details in the link)...
http://www.faw.cymru/en/news/wales-y...en/news/&pos=1

u19s Squad

George Ratcliffe (CARDIFF CITY)
Adam Przybek (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Connor Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Ryan Reynolds (CARDIFF CITY)
Jay Foulston (NEWPORT COUNTY)
Morgan Boyes (LIVERPOOL)
Nico Williams (LIVERPOOL)
Brandon Cooper (SWANSEA CITY)
Luke Jephcott (PLYMOUTH ARGYLE)
Pablo Martinez (WEST BROMWICH ALBION)
Keenan Patten (CARDIFF CITY)
Isaak Davies (CARDIFF CITY)
Jack Vale (BLACKBURN ROVERS)
Rueben Duncan (MILLWALL)
Elliott Thorpe (TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR)
Callum Watts (SOUTHAMPTON)
Ben Cabango (SWANSEA CITY)
Mason Jones Thomas (SWANSEA CITY)
Sam Bowen (CARDIFF CITY)
Lewis Collins (NEWPORT COUNTY)

Five of those started on Tuesday in the Cup Final and Reynolds came on as a sub - Connor Davies is only 16 according to that Wales Online article and I would have thought Patten, Isaak Davies or Bowen were seventeen at most.

No Sion Spence I see, I know he's not eighteen until October and I'd be very surprised if he has been dropped - maybe he'll be involved with the Under 21s if they're playing this month?

[the other bob wilson]

His talent is to be honest irrelevant.

The question is how many would be above him with regards to playing in the first team; I recall he's more a right back so Peltier, Manga, Richards etc. It's silly to keep someone on just for the sake of it.

EDIT: Loramski's post from 26th April just shows the club have been effectively right in releasing players we have, regards of people's views on them.

It shows there's a vast gulf between Academy levels and real football.

How many Academy games do you get to watch?

[ccfc_is_my_life]

How many Academy games do you get to watch?

Not as many as I'd like to due to work.

The reality is that players can be released due to not being good enough, players can be released due to being in a position where we're already strong.

So far, it's hard to claim the club have made massive mistakes when there are next to no released players making an impact at this level.

[Blue in the Face]

His talent is to be honest irrelevant.

The question is how many would be above him with regards to playing in the first team; I recall he's more a right back so Peltier, Manga, Richards etc. It's silly to keep someone on just for the sake of it.

EDIT: Loramski's post from 26th April just shows the club have been effectively right in releasing players we have, regards of people's views on them.

It shows there's a vast gulf between Academy levels and real football.

Don't forget though the DVP team has been playing the whole season with trialists. We've also ended up recruiting centre backs who I think might even be a tad older than Baker. Perhaps we should be speculating a little longer?

One thing the club hasn't done since the Adam Matthews is claw back some of the investment made from the player's development. Did we even get anything for Declan John? Maybe allowing players to leave on a free is the reality, but I'd like to see us at least angling for sell-on fees if the players come good. I hope we have done that with John at Rangers.

The obvious conclusion is that the club are perhaps trying to raise the standard bar, so the youngsters know if they haven't pushed themselves to certain levels at a certain age they are cut. Sending out a message to the younger age groups.

Five of those started on Tuesday in the Cup Final and Reynolds came on as a sub - Connor Davies is only 16 according to that Wales Online article and I would have thought Patten, Isaak Davies or Bowen were seventeen at most.

No Sion Spence I see, I know he's not eighteen until October and I'd be very surprised if he has been dropped - maybe he'll be involved with the Under 21s if they're playing this month?

I do think the Wales u21s needs a big re-think in the middle of the pitch, which seems to be letting the rest of the system down. I think Robbie Burton will be brought into the next u21s camp after just earning a pro deal at Arsenal. But he's playing deeper in midfield than he was a couple of years ago. Going off the top of my head, there's also Matt Smith, Joe Morrell and Alex Babos (haven't seen play), who could play in the 8 or 10 positions. Page does play a man in the hole so it's possible Spence is in his thinking.

Should James Waite also be in Page's thoughts? I don't remember him ever getting international recognition.

[Blue in the Face]

EDIT: regarding Spence. This Wales squad is I think a preperation for u19 qualifiers much later in the year. So perhaps the selection is with the next 18 months in mind and creating cohesion with the next crop. So players who might be pushed up to the u21s beyond the current qualifers, which end this autumn, will miss out on this squad. At least that's my guess.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Don't forget though the DVP team has been playing the whole season with trialists. We've also ended up recruiting centre backs who I think might even be a tad older than Baker. Perhaps we should be speculating a little longer?

One thing the club hasn't done since the Adam Matthews is claw back some of the investment made from the player's development. Did we even get anything for Declan John? Maybe allowing players to leave on a free is the reality, but I'd like to see us at least angling for sell-on fees if the players come good. I hope we have done that with John at Rangers.

Whilst that would be a nicety, John failed to do anything at League One level. Nobody wanted to buy him so all we could do was look at him as being a reduction on the wage bill.

The obvious conclusion is that the club are perhaps trying to raise the standard bar, so the youngsters know if they haven't pushed themselves to certain levels at a certain age they are cut. Sending out a message to the younger age groups.

I agree with Warnock's view on the DVP. You learn nothing playing against same age due to so many youngsters flaming out. Someone can look amazing at same age group, be shit when playing at higher levels.

I do think the Wales u21s needs a big re-think in the middle of the pitch, which seems to be letting the rest of the system down. I think Robbie Burton will be brought into the next u21s camp after just earning a pro deal at Arsenal. But he's playing deeper in midfield than he was a couple of years ago. Going off the top of my head, there's also Matt Smith, Joe Morrell and Alex Babos (haven't seen play), who could play in the 8 or 10 positions. Page does play a man in the hole so it's possible Spence is in his thinking.

Should James Waite also be in Page's thoughts? I don't remember him ever getting international recognition.

I always though Waite was Thai...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Waite

[the other bob wilson]

EDIT: regarding Spence. This Wales squad is I think a preperation for u19 qualifiers much later in the year. So perhaps the selection is with the next 18 months in mind and creating cohesion with the next crop. So players who might be pushed up to the u21s beyond the current qualifers, which end this autumn, will miss out on this squad. At least that's my guess.

You could be right - regarding Waite, was he a late call up for an Under 21 squad in the last year or two or am I imagining it?

[the other bob wilson]

Not as many as I'd like to due to work.

The reality is that players can be released due to not being good enough, players can be released due to being in a position where we're already strong.

So far, it's hard to claim the club have made massive mistakes when there are next to no released players making an impact at this level.

Your last sentence is the one that it is hard to argue against, but, although people say that it's a shit league and a shit club, Declan John's career seems to have advanced since he moved to Rangers (Forrest of Celtic ran amok in the Old Firm game over the weekend, but I've seen Declan deal with him quite well a couple of times this season). Tom James seems to be earning himself a move up the league ladder at Yeovil - I really don't think the gap between Academy football and what you call real football is as large as you make it out to be, I accept that a youngster may only get the one chance to shine in the first team and it's a case of sink or swim, but ours all seem to be deemed to be sinkers these days without being chucked in the deep end!

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Your last sentence is the one that it is hard to argue against, but, although people say that it's a shit league and a shit club, Declan John's career seems to have advanced since he moved to Rangers (Forrest of Celtic ran amok in the Old Firm game over the weekend, but I've seen Declan deal with him quite well a couple of times this season). Tom James seems to be earning himself a move up the league ladder at Yeovil - I really don't think the gap between Academy football and what you call real football is as large as you make it out to be, I accept that a youngster may only get the one chance to shine in the first team and it's a case of sink or swim, but ours all seem to be deemed to be sinkers these days without being chucked in the deep end!

The overwhelming majority of Academy players, regardless of club, are "sinkers" though. That's the reality of football, finding that gem is very much the exception.

Declan John was played at numerous positions at lower level and failed in every one. His career may well have advanced but at a poor level. Nothing in his Rangers career indicated we made the wrong decision in getting rid of him.

James may well have found his natural level. Until his career progresses, difficult to say.

Reality is, of the player we've released, all have gravitated downwards. People point to a Regan Poole, Man Utd loaned him out to Northampton where he can't even get a regular place - plus being moved into midfield.

I just find it hard to believe any manager would willingly not play a youngster if that youngster could save them precious money in a limited budget.

[Blue in the Face]

You could be right - regarding Waite, was he a late call up for an Under 21 squad in the last year or two or am I imagining it?

Have to admit, I don't recall him ever getting a call up. Wales could have done with his mould of player in recent games. I feel he should get a cap while the chance is there and the upcoming games are fairly meaningless. Though Page may feel the pressure, he should really take the chance to experiment because what he has been doing has not been working. Think he has defender turned manager syndrome whereby he is too concerned about being conservative.

There is another name I should mention coming up at Man U - Dylan Levitt may be another candidate for a shot at the 8 / 10. One to look out for.

Your last sentence is the one that it is hard to argue against, but, although people say that it's a shit league and a shit club, Declan John's career seems to have advanced since he moved to Rangers (Forrest of Celtic ran amok in the Old Firm game over the weekend, but I've seen Declan deal with him quite well a couple of times this season). Tom James seems to be earning himself a move up the league ladder at Yeovil - I really don't think the gap between Academy football and what you call real football is as large as you make it out to be, I accept that a youngster may only get the one chance to shine in the first team and it's a case of sink or swim, but ours all seem to be deemed to be sinkers these days without being chucked in the deep end!

Tom James rumours to the championship won't go away. Another rumour in the papers today about a move to the Wurzels. Remains to be seen, but hopefully he gets a good move up and takes it.

The overwhelming majority of Academy players, regardless of club, are "sinkers" though. That's the reality of football, finding that gem is very much the exception.

Declan John was played at numerous positions at lower level and failed in every one. His career may well have advanced but at a poor level. Nothing in his Rangers career indicated we made the wrong decision in getting rid of him.

James may well have found his natural level. Until his career progresses, difficult to say.

Reality is, of the player we've released, all have gravitated downwards. People point to a Regan Poole, Man Utd loaned him out to Northampton where he can't even get a regular place - plus being moved into midfield.

I just find it hard to believe any manager would willingly not play a youngster if that youngster could save them precious money in a limited budget.

I think Cardiff's record of turning players into pros is a lot better than our fans give credit for. There are a lot of young ex Cardiff pros out there now. I'm sure one or two will come good.

The key problems seem to be - One, blooding youngsters for an upper championship club or above is getting harder by the season due to the growing competativeness of the leagues. Two, it's even harder for us because our academy doesn't have the status of the clubs above us, so are quality isn't there throughout and loaning clubs are looking to PL teams for loans.

There seems to be an issue with the initial couple of seasons that a player gets games. Loaning clubs would rather nuture their own assets ideally. Top clubs can't risk playing inexperienced players in high pressure games. David Brooks was given away by Man City. But what would his value be now? And yet had he stayed, then he might well have just been a another young player who still hasn't played a pro game that most people haven't heard of and has no value. Playing games and opportunities is the key, which is why I think TOBW is spot on.

[Blue in the Face]

One more point to add. Potential is potential and isn't really malleable. But I believe you need to put in your 10000 hours before you give that potential a chance. I think this is part of TOBW's point. Players need experience and opportunity.

[Loramski]

One more point to add. Potential is potential and isn't really malleable. But I believe you need to put in your 10000 hours before you give that potential a chance. I think this is part of TOBW's point. Players need experience and opportunity.

Which players though? We're one point clear in second place, are you saying Warnock should have weakened the team at some point by playing youngsters he didn't think were good enough just because it would've been a nice thing to do? It's not realistic. Even two of the youngsters who eventually did force their way in here, Rhys Healey and Kadeem Harris, have been deemed surplus to requirements for the run-in. If there are better players than those two in the DVP side at present then I haven't seen them, even League 2 sides didn't take any of them on loan in January.

I'm all for bringing youngsters through but they've got to be of a standard. Just playing them won't make them world beaters. Ben Nugent, Aaron Wildig and Declan John all got a chance here but it still didn't work out for them. We sent players like Tommy O'Sullivan and Jazzi Barnum-Bobb out on loan to league clubs, where did that opportunity and experience get them?

Warnock (as with Slade before him) doesn't play the kind of football that will encourage the youngsters we're bringing through but until there's some genuine quality there it's hard to be critical of him for not playing them, even though I'd love to agree with you and TOBW on this.

[the other bob wilson]

Which players though? We're one point clear in second place, are you saying Warnock should have weakened the team at some point by playing youngsters he didn't think were good enough just because it would've been a nice thing to do? It's not realistic. Even two of the youngsters who eventually did force their way in here, Rhys Healey and Kadeem Harris, have been deemed surplus to requirements for the run-in. If there are better players than those two in the DVP side at present then I haven't seen them, even League 2 sides didn't take any of them on loan in January.

I'm all for bringing youngsters through but they've got to be of a standard. Just playing them won't make them world beaters. Ben Nugent, Aaron Wildig and Declan John all got a chance here but it still didn't work out for them. We sent players like Tommy O'Sullivan and Jazzi Barnum-Bobb out on loan to league clubs, where did that opportunity and experience get them?

Warnock (as with Slade before him) doesn't play the kind of football that will encourage the youngsters we're bringing through but until there's some genuine quality there it's hard to be critical of him for not playing them, even though I'd love to agree with you and TOBW on this.

I accept that it's tougher for Academy players to break into first teams at most clubs these days - certainly at higher levels, the need to avoid relegation at all costs makes it much more tempting to spend a few more tens of millions in the transfer market or on new managerial appointments if things are going wrong rather than "gamble" on youngsters.

Nevertheless, Cardiff City come across as a club less willing to turn to youth than others these days. Neil Warnock only needs to point to the league table to offer proof that his methods are working, but the only things that have really changed during his spell here when it comes to football below first team level are the selection policy and style of play when it comes to the Development side and, to a lesser extent, the Under 18s - Cardiff had been failing to produce local youngsters who would break into the first team long before he arrived.

Warnock believes in giving honest answers to most of the questions he is asked and he has been quite open about his motivation for being here - he wants that eighth promotion and is now saying that he would like another crack at the Premier League if we go up. In other words, his motives are purely selfish - I'd say he is only stating it as it is there in a way which most managers would do if they were as honest as he is. Dave Jones used to talk about how he wanted to "build" a club in all of his managerial jobs, by contrast, Neil Warnock says, with some justification, that building for the future is not an option at his age - he is much more about the here and now and this has to impact on how youth development is addressed under his management.

At the end of last season, Wales Under 20s played in the prestigious Toulon tournament and, although they didn't qualify from their group, they performed creditably with a win and draws against hosts France and eventual finalists the Ivory Coast. I watched all of Wales' games and, despite there being some much bigger names involved, the player who, arguably, received the most praise from the watching commentators and pundits was right back Cameron Coxe.

Cardiff City provided both full backs for the Welsh team with Rhys Abbruzzese doing well on the left, but it was Coxe, performing very much as a modern full back looking to get forward at every opportunity, who impressed most. For a while it looked as if Neil Warnock had been very impressed with Coxe as he started in the very first pre season friendly at Taffs Well and then made a competitive debut in the League Cup tie with Burton where, in a poor team performance, he did okay - certainly better than some of the bigger names who were offered the chance of making a genuine claim for first team selection.

A year ago this weekend, sixteen year old midfield player Sion Spence was, we were told, denied a place on the bench for the first team's final match of their campaign at Huddersfield by what was called an insurance matter.

Since then, Spence has played a full season at Under 18 level in an attacking midfield, number ten type role and has scored almost thirty goals, yet he seems further away from the first team at 17 than he did at 16.

I don't know how players such as Coxe, Spence and others youngsters who may have figured that they might get chancesLately in the first team if they really performed well in the early stages of 17/18 must have felt when they heard our manager announcing with the first month of the campaign barely completed that he didn't think this was a season for introducing young players.

The obvious question this raises is what will be a good season to introduce them? Lately, it seems no season is deemed suitable for giving youth a proper chance at Cardiff - bizarrely, the last time I can recall City taking a punt and giving a local youngster a league debut before it happened for Mark Harris last season was five years ago when Declan John started in our first top flight match in over fifty years at West Ham!

To return to Spence, at most clubs, his goalscoring achievements over the past nine months would have been rewarded with a regular place in the next step of the Development ladder - the Under 23 team. However, Cardiff are not like most clubs this season because their Under 18 and Under 23 teams would appear to be two separate entities with nothing linking them whatsoever. How else can you explain why it is that the only Academy players you have tended to see in the Development side this season have been ones who did not appear to be members of what was considered the strongest Under 18 team? Spence and others were playing every Saturday morning for Craig Bellamy's side while the "reward" for those who couldn't get into the starting eleven was a place on the bench on Monday for the Development team.

Rightly or wrongly, the impression was given that Bellamy would rather the youngsters stayed with him than go off playing for the closest thing City have these days to a reserve side and, if that were true, then it was a viewpoint which gained credence as the season went on and Development team games became more of exercise in futility for the young, locally produced, pros who were too old to feature for the Academy side.

So, someone like Cameron Coxe watched on while right backs Lee Peltier and Jazz Richards missed significant portions of the season through injury, while Bruno Manga was converted, with mixed results, to a right back and while Matt Connolly and even Greg Halford filled in there at various times knowing that his chances of being given a chance to prove himself among the seniors was virtually zero.

Instead, he spent his season turning out for a team where he probably didn't know a third to a half of his team mates because they had been recruited as almost one offs on a trial basis. Not just that, he and Abbruzzese were sometimes played out of position to accommodate full backs who played their one game on trial and then disappeared off the Cardiff City radar. Not all of the trialists were a waste of time as Ciaron Brown, among others, earned a contract and impressed for a while as a possible first team contender in the making, but, by the end of the season, his game was showing signs of decline as he seemed to be being dragged down by the mediocrity and random nature of what was going on around him.

How on earth has someone like Cameron Coxe's game "developed" after the season he's just been through with what is laughingly called our Development team? No doubt, unless he does something that City's Welsh youngsters have largely stopped doing during this decade, Coxe will be released and deemed to be another one who was not good enough by people who barely saw him play during his time with us - that's what I mean when I say it's lazy to just label a young player as not good enough, they each have their own story to tell and, in the case of the better ones, they might be justified in being bitter about the way they were treated by City.

Certainly, I would say that Coxe has good reason to wonder how his chances of "making it" have been helped by the way the Under 23 team has been used this season - has he, and some others, been given a fair crack of the whip? I don't think they have.

As I've said earlier in this thread, there are two possibilities here. Either Cardiff City have become a club where excuses are found to not consider young players for the team or those who say that our youngsters are not good enough are correct. Either way, I believe those who have been involved at the top level of our Academy over the past eight or nine seasons should be embarrassed that Swansea are now celebrating their ninth consecutive Welsh Youth Cup win - for a club that has relied on a steady stream of young Welsh players to maintain it's position as a "natural" first or second tier club for about ninety per cent of it's league existence, it's a disgrace to see us so clearly the poor relations in terms of youth football in our rivalry with Swansea.

[Blue in the Face]

Which players though? We're one point clear in second place, are you saying Warnock should have weakened the team at some point by playing youngsters he didn't think were good enough just because it would've been a nice thing to do? It's not realistic. Even two of the youngsters who eventually did force their way in here, Rhys Healey and Kadeem Harris, have been deemed surplus to requirements for the run-in. If there are better players than those two in the DVP side at present then I haven't seen them, even League 2 sides didn't take any of them on loan in January.

I'm all for bringing youngsters through but they've got to be of a standard. Just playing them won't make them world beaters. Ben Nugent, Aaron Wildig and Declan John all got a chance here but it still didn't work out for them. We sent players like Tommy O'Sullivan and Jazzi Barnum-Bobb out on loan to league clubs, where did that opportunity and experience get them?

Warnock (as with Slade before him) doesn't play the kind of football that will encourage the youngsters we're bringing through but until there's some genuine quality there it's hard to be critical of him for not playing them, even though I'd love to agree with you and TOBW on this.

Good points Loramski. Will answer later when I have time.

[Blue in the Face]

I'm not going to quote the last two posts as it will use up most of the page.

Loramski. I actually don't disagree with a word you're saying. I also would want to be clear that my gripes are longer term one and accumulative. They are not aimed at Warnock and they are not specific to this season. I wouldn't have wanted us to gamble with the outcome of second with a game to play at all. Had the season panned out differently and looked to be heading for mid-table, then perhaps Neil would not have brought in the likes of Madine and Wildshut and he may well have given some playing time these last few games to some DVP players.

Slade is an easy manager for us to attack, but he brought in duds when it seemed clear to the fans that he should have been blooding our youngsters and not just to save the club money, but to raise the profile of young players for future loans and upping their transfer value. I actually thought Slade's assesment of O'Sullivan was a good one, but then I can't help thinking that his career might have worked out better had he been played at a younger age in competitive and high tempo games.

Though perhaps, to skew your points in another direction, if we were to ditch your examples of O'Sullivan and Barnum-Bobb and exchange them for Tom James and Ash Baker, perhaps the argument looks a tad different? Of course these two are yet to prove that they are championship players, but they seem to be knocking on the championship door in some managers estimations (if the Tom James transfer rumours turn out to be true). What I'm worried about is that staff at the club may be generalising in our judgements to much. Yes there is a trend that most players won't make it to the level CCFC want to be playing at. But no club in the world is going to produce a new first team, up to their current standards, through it's academy every couple of years. What I am worried about is that we are not speculating on the players we have long enough. With the example of James and Baker, should they not still be with us perhaps? Rolin Menayese is another one who has played in league one and two this season. They are not too old for a DVP. I worry we're continually throwing the babies out with the bath water (will that cliche ever be more fitting!?)

The academy is the longest term project a club can have. For me, the remit shouldn't just be to nuture the players who might be good enough for the first team, it should be to nurture the academy itself - to earn a reputation for looking after players and setting them up for careers as professionals. If we can't raise the profile of the academy itself, then the Bale's and Bellamy's will continually allude us.

TOBW. Great points. I'm not going to write a load on what I agree with but rather make points to the fragments of your post that I think may be challenged.

I think I might have had this dialogue with you before on Spence. For starters, I simply haven't seen him play anywhere near as much as you have. I wonder if there might be a physical issue? He seems to have grown a lot from the footage I can see and he has had strapping on his knees during this season. Could that be a consideration? Also if the holding him back, an argument could be made that this was a freak season where it might be justified, given the state of the DVP team. Also also, given that Sion seems to be being sculptured into something close to the type of player that Bellamy was, then would we not be missing the trick to have Craig mentor him? I know you know these points already but thought they were worth repeating.

Abbruzzesse. I just wonder if he looks a bit small to be in defence? He's 20 now and someone made the point recently that perhaps the coaches were waiting for a growth spurt that never came. Are the academy giving him a bash in the 6 to see if another position might suit him better? I do remember from your reports that he was making way for a left back trialist, but just wondered if there may perhaps be a good reason why. Or if I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubt, maybe the coaches were embracing an Ajax style coaching method for a couple of weeks. I doubt it too , but nothing wrong if they were.

[thehumblegringo]

Some real good debates going on in here along with the thread on the FAW Welsh cup final.

I've been told that Rhys Abbruzzese has been released which would explain why he didn't feature on Tuesday in Swansea.

I agree with Loramski's point earlier in one of the threads that though Warnock has done a fantastic job in almost every way since he's taken over, it really is hard to see where all this is going long term.

We have seen at Stoke how hard it has been to convert Pulis style into something more 'pleasing on the eye'.

Stoke have splashed substantial amounts of cash to get where they are now on top European players yet they seem to caught between the old and the new.

The biggest long term problem I see is that every academy tends to bring kids up playing attractive football on 3g or bowling green surfaces. Cardiff are trying to implement a Spanish philosophy where possession is paramount amd when you contrast this with the first team then the issue becomes clear.

I see people calling for us to sign Ryan Woods from Brentford this summer if we go up but I cannot for the life of me envisage Woods slotting into our team.

Emyr Huws is a perfect example. He was a midfielder who would come to the ball and would tend to play horizontally rather than vertically and therefore didn't get a sniff under Warnock.

If you watch players like Spence, Waite and Bowen on a regular basis then you will see a similar issue in the way these kids have been nurtured and the way the first team play.

I often wonder if the kids are being kept in the u18s to protect themselves or to protect Bellamy as results at that level would boost his profile, however if Warnock wants the 23s to be more like the 1st team then maybe it's for the good of the kids.

One thing is sure, if the club wants to move forward they need to establish a clear vision of what they are about. You cannot have such a contrast between the 1st team and what is coming through and expect them to seamlessly slot in.

[Blue in the Face]

Some real good debates going on in here along with the thread on the FAW Welsh cup final.

I've been told that Rhys Abbruzzese has been released which would explain why he didn't feature on Tuesday in Swansea.

I agree with Loramski's point earlier in one of the threads that though Warnock has done a fantastic job in almost every way since he's taken over, it really is hard to see where all this is going long term.

We have seen at Stoke how hard it has been to convert Pulis style into something more 'pleasing on the eye'.

Stoke have splashed substantial amounts of cash to get where they are now on top European players yet they seem to caught between the old and the new.

The biggest long term problem I see is that every academy tends to bring kids up playing attractive football on 3g or bowling green surfaces. Cardiff are trying to implement a Spanish philosophy where possession is paramount amd when you contrast this with the first team then the issue becomes clear.

I see people calling for us to sign Ryan Woods from Brentford this summer if we go up but I cannot for the life of me envisage Woods slotting into our team.

Emyr Huws is a perfect example. He was a midfielder who would come to the ball and would tend to play horizontally rather than vertically and therefore didn't get a sniff under Warnock.

If you watch players like Spence, Waite and Bowen on a regular basis then you will see a similar issue in the way these kids have been nurtured and the way the first team play.

I often wonder if the kids are being kept in the u18s to protect themselves or to protect Bellamy as results at that level would boost his profile, however if Warnock wants the 23s to be more like the 1st team then maybe it's for the good of the kids.

One thing is sure, if the club wants to move forward they need to establish a clear vision of what they are about. You cannot have such a contrast between the 1st team and what is coming through and expect them to seamlessly slot in.

I'd be dissapointed if Abbruzzese has been cut. He is still a current Wales u21 and hasn't looked out of place playing at that level. I think his absence from the FAW cup could perhaps be due to age? Think the rules are u19 for last September. If he has been let go, I hope a league side that plays a technical game take a look at him.

There is clearly a dilema bringing the styles of the DVP to the seniors. But I'm not certain in my mind that Neil is specifically against a more technical game over the directness we've had in the second half of this season. I think he would take a Woods if it was affordable, though not a Huws. Though Neil does have a track record of having big specimens in the spine of his teams. I think what Warnock has brought to Cardiff is pure pragmatism. Points on the board with little money to spend. If we were to win on Sunday. He will have money to spend on wages and I'm sure wouldn't be surprised to see more technical types arrivals over the summer to make us more adaptable. Perhaps we will promotion or not. But sure, he's always gonna want a couple of heavyweights in the mix and it's easy to understand why.

Does our success highlight a problem we have with our catchment area? Wales, for whatever reason just doesn't seem to produce big specemins who also happen to be technically capable of playing for an upper championship side. There haven't been many players in the Welsh squad over 6ft in recent years. Barely any capable of the highest levels of the game. So our DVP team does need supplementing. Though us digging around other teams trash all season seems like a desperate act to me.

There's another problem for us. Maybe a problem unique to us and the few upper championship clubs with level 2 academy status. Academy 2 seems to be a very useful grade for league one clubs or below. They can turn decent prospects and late bloomers in to pros and make up a decent percentage of their squad with home grown players, with the odd one maybe having potential to make a higher level. The problem we have is that we are generally bound to players in our catchment area because of the 2 status. We have not able to so much poaching of players who might fill in deficiencies that the youth teams and catchment area may have, which mainly seems to be physical and yet capable players.

The academy system seems like a winner take all system at present. Is level 2 any use for our level as an upper championship club? If we had a Rambo now, what's to stop him from being poached by Arsenal for a simple trubunal fee? Would we even have gotten to the stage where we could have comanced the measly 4.9m? If if if, we were to go up, my hope is getting us to a level 1 academy would be top of the priority list. My worry is it might be too much of a long term improvement for the powers that be. I just hope an argument can be made that the size of the investment needed would be in line with an increase in the club's asset value as a consequence.

But perhaps it might take another Ramsay-esque break through to get people enthused for academy investement again?