Deomocracy at last.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

That makes all the difference

Glad I've got you on board.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

Life's beautiful mate isn't it - where not everyone looks , sounds or thinks like each other

I know SOME knuckle dusters who vote LABOUR year in year out and I know some old grannies that vote Conservative because their friends at the golf club do.

Maybe debating the points rather than people would help

I have quite a few left wing leaning mates who tell me every time it comes up in conversation that anyone who voted Leave are Racist, thick, wife beating scum and that only people who voted remain seem to have intelligence. I find these people so fecking annoying I usually ignore them, some times I have engaged them in the subject - and they go very quiet when you break down their view point.

It's an irony that it used to be a pretty central part of left Labour policy to leave the EU. Corbyn is an inheritor of this tradition. There is also a vociferous Labour Leave campaign.

[tommy31]

And the welsh assembly!!!!!!!!

funnily enough you said something quite topical.

When we had the vote for devolution in 1999, it passed narrowly. We then got a watered down version of devolution.

Why should brexit be any different?

[Gabalphaville]

It's an irony that it used to be a pretty central part of left Labour policy to leave the EU. Corbyn is an inheritor of this tradition. There is also a vociferous Labour Leave campaign.

The Benn-ite wing of the Labour Party was traditionally very anti-Europe. But there has been a change of perception over time with the EU latterly being seen as an institution that better protects workers' rights. That said, St Jezza's commitment to the Remain cause did come across as half-hearted.

[Wales-Bales]

[Bluebird since 1948]

funnily enough you said something quite topical.

When we had the vote for devolution in 1999, it passed narrowly. We then got a watered down version of devolution.

Why should brexit be any different?

As far as I am aware we got exactly what we voted for in 1999, not sure what was watered down about it. You could argue it does not have the fullest possible powers but I don't remember that ever being on the table. With Brexit we were told that we would leave the single market and therefore stop the free movement of people, this was expressed countless times by both prominent leave and remain campaigners.

I had long been an advocate for devolution and proudly voted for it in 1999 and I am happy with the powers we have although very unhappy with the second rate politicians that infest the institution.

[Mrs Steve R]

You perfectly summed up what I was going to say.

[TH63]

And the welsh assembly!!!!!!!!

Don't get me started on that one

[Wales-Bales]

A vote in parliament gave the power, emphasis on POWER, to the people.

MP's should act on the will of the people. In this case. Not all.

Jacob Rees Mogg said parliament should never act on the opinion of the people alone. But by voting on it, it became more than just an opinion. They should act to some degree on the wishes of their constituents.

This is parliamentary democracy, I'll accept. But I think the country/countries now know it is a farce. There is no democracy. MP's hold absolute power.

It may be the correct process. But this is the day millions lost complete confidence in the system.

Do they?

[severncity]

funnily enough you said something quite topical.

When we had the vote for devolution in 1999, it passed narrowly. We then got a watered down version of devolution.

Why should brexit be any different?

The vote was in 1997. The first Assembly elections were in 1999. For the first twelve years of its existence, the Assembly had no primary law-making powers - for the first seven years it was essentially a talking shop.

I voted leave, unlike most Plaid members and I know of only one other person (besides me) who has worked for Plaid and voted to leave. I worked with members of MEP Jill Evans' team for years and saw at first hand the "gravy train."

Public spending in Wales is around £37 billion per annum.

IMG_0190.jpg


Total EU funding to Wales has averaged around £300 million per annum; so roughly 1% of all Welsh public expenditure. Here is a link to an article from a few weeks ago in which EU Commissioner, Corina Cretu, confirms this figure and bemoans (bremoans?) the Welsh electorate's Leave vote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37584927

"There were some regions in transition which have received a lot of money and we were there as a sign of solidarity in many moments of crisis for some regions, for instance when the mines were closed," said Ms Cretu, a former Romanian MEP who has been EU commissioner for regional policy since 2014.
"We have trained people; we have opened, due to European funds, many new activities.
"But of course this speaks also about our weaknesses of communicating what we are doing with European money, how European money is spent, so it's a lesson for us."

Ms Cretu confirms that the vast majority of this relatively piffling annual figure was spent on "training". And here is the evidence from the Welsh government.

IMG_0191.jpg

Guess what? Most of this money was spent on paying local gravy-trainers to set up CV workshops and suchlike in deprived valleys communities.

Wales was an exemplar at filling in the forms to get the EU funding. But unfortunately for Wales most of the EU cash was spunked feathering the nests of people who won these contracts for training.

That is why I voted leave. Westminster is corrupt and so is the Senedd, to an extent. But we have more chance of challenging that corruption than in the cesspool of Brussels.

Today's decision is political, not legal, and the fact that the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd was a founding member of the European Law Institute, an organisation with an agenda to enhance European legal integration clearly indicates that.

[goslow]

Does this mean we can't kick the darkies out ?

[tommy31]

The vote was in 1997. The first Assembly elections were in 1999. For the first twelve years of its existence, the Assembly had no primary law-making powers - for the first seven years it was essentially a talking shop.

I voted leave, unlike most Plaid members and I know of only one other person (besides me) who has worked for Plaid and voted to leave. I worked with members of MEP Jill Evans' team for years and saw at first hand the "gravy train."

Public spending in Wales is around £37 billion per annum.

IMG_0190.jpg


Total EU funding to Wales has averaged around £300 million per annum; so roughly 1% of all Welsh public expenditure. Here is a link to an article from a few weeks ago in which EU Commissioner, Corina Cretu, confirms this figure and bemoans (bremoans?) the Welsh electorate's Leave vote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37584927

"There were some regions in transition which have received a lot of money and we were there as a sign of solidarity in many moments of crisis for some regions, for instance when the mines were closed," said Ms Cretu, a former Romanian MEP who has been EU commissioner for regional policy since 2014.
"We have trained people; we have opened, due to European funds, many new activities.
"But of course this speaks also about our weaknesses of communicating what we are doing with European money, how European money is spent, so it's a lesson for us."

Ms Cretu confirms that the vast majority of this relatively piffling annual figure was spent on "training". And here is the evidence from the Welsh government.

IMG_0191.jpg

Guess what? Most of this money was spent on paying local gravy-trainers to set up CV workshops and suchlike in deprived valleys communities.

Wales was an exemplar at filling in the forms to get the EU funding. But unfortunately for Wales most of the EU cash was spunked feathering the nests of people who won these contracts for training.

That is why I voted leave. Westminster is corrupt and so is the Senedd, to an extent. But we have more chance of challenging that corruption than in the cesspool of Brussels.

Today's decision is political, not legal, and the fact that the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd was a founding member of the European Law Institute, an organisation with an agenda to enhance European legal integration clearly indicates that.

good post, nice read.

You must remember that it's also up to the WG to choose how they spend the money. But your first point backs up what I said about a watered down version of devo. Did anyone really think they were voting for an assembly with no law making power? Talk about devo-lite.

[Vimana.]

QUOTE from you "It is pretty clear that even the tiny majority who voted for brexit" the majority voted for Brexit idiot

Get a grip FFS !

[Wales-Bales]

Brexit means Brexit ... until the Crown Court says it doesn't

[surge]

Remain voters are the only ones with a functioning brain you see.

Even though 99% of people I know voted remain and they haven't the slightest idea of politics or goings on in the world beyond headlines.

Shall we start debating the results of general elections? Because that is the equivalent.

We should absolutely question whether the process that lead to the result can be improved whether or not we can debate the result. If we moved away from FPTP the UK government would be far more representative of the country which voted for Brexit in great number but also pro-EU in great (slightly less) number - we would have more UKIP and more Lib Dems for a start.

We would thus end up politicians who were happy to debate what Brexit should look like rather than the unelected PM announcing it would be a hard and secretly forged deal which again doesn't necessarily represent the majority of leave voters nor represents the majority of MP's.

The process of debating information which the decision was made upon could hopefully be improved so that the only mention of £350 million for the NHS wasn't political comics suggesting it to sheepishly smiling Boris, Patel and co while they try and pretend it was never said. We could have hopefully had more debate like the Greek chap who said that no one will know what Brexit will do to the UK because nothing like it has happened around the world or Martin Lewis stating that both views could be taken up but this is what swayed it for him.

Absolutely we should debate the result of GE if it means more informed choices in the future and a more representative parliament.

[Wales-Bales]

We should absolutely question whether the process that lead to the result can be improved whether or not we can debate the result. If we moved away from FPTP the UK government would be far more representative of the country which voted for Brexit in great number but also pro-EU in great (slightly less) number - we would have more UKIP and more Lib Dems for a start.

We would thus end up politicians who were happy to debate what Brexit should look like rather than the unelected PM announcing it would be a hard and secretly forged deal which again doesn't necessarily represent the majority of leave voters nor represents the majority of MP's.

The process of debating information which the decision was made upon could hopefully be improved so that the only mention of £350 million for the NHS wasn't political comics suggesting it to sheepishly smiling Boris, Patel and co while they try and pretend it was never said. We could have hopefully had more debate like the Greek chap who said that no one will know what Brexit will do to the UK because nothing like it has happened around the world or Martin Lewis stating that both views could be taken up but this is what swayed it for him.

Absolutely we should debate the result of GE if it means more informed choices in the future and a more representative parliament.

People are chosen to become MP's by committees, so you only need to have influence over the various executive bodies to have a big say in what goes on politically.

[Robin Friday's Ghost]

The Benn-ite wing of the Labour Party was traditionally very anti-Europe. But there has been a change of perception over time with the EU latterly being seen as an institution that better protects workers' rights. That said, St Jezza's commitment to the Remain cause did come across as half-hearted.

You don't have to look very far to see that the EU is an institution which primarily exists to service business not workers. The current controversy over the Single MARKET and the free movement of LABOUR for example.

[Rjk]

You don't have to look very far to see that the EU is an institution which primarily exists to service business not workers. The current controversy over the Single MARKET and the free movement of LABOUR for example.

Recently the eu seem to have stood up to big business far more than I would ever expect Westminster to

[Rjk]

IMG_20161103_203349.jpg

**** this.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

MP's should act on the will of the people.

What is the will of the people? Yes, to leave the EU, but in what form? Has the will of the people been consulted about that?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

What is the will of the people? Yes, to leave the EU, but in what form? Has the will of the people been consulted about that?

Does the average person in the street have any understanding of the major and complex issues involved? And about the benefits and disbenefits involved (especially when we don't know the eventual alternative)? Would you run your life on a vox pop?

[TruBlue]

Going against the people will be disastrous for the UK. Obviously a few bitter and disappointed remainers see an opportunity but they just look a bit silly. The vote was to leave, it was close but that's irrelevant.

Most MPs will vote with the people I would imagine but could be wrong.

I didn't vote to leave but look forward to a new future, it could well be the best thing the UK has ever done.

[Wales-Bales]

Going against the people will be disastrous for the UK. Obviously a few bitter and disappointed remainers see an opportunity but they just look a bit silly. The vote was to leave, it was close but that's irrelevant.

Most MPs will vote with the people I would imagine but could be wrong.

I didn't vote to leave but look forward to a new future, it could well be the best thing the UK has ever done.

Nothing unusual there I don't think they would have gone to the trouble of getting the judge to make that decision if the MP's weren't going to vote against Brexit

[TruBlue]

Nothing unusual there I don't think they would have gone to the trouble of getting the judge to make that decision if the MP's weren't going to vote against Brexit

Let me get this right, "They" whoever they are let us plebs have a vote, we vote out and now "they" decide to go to court to stop us.

I've no doubt that if the MPs vote to leave (as is clearly what the majority wanted) you'll come up with some other nonsense about how it's part of the plan.

[Organ Morgan.]

Going against the people will be disastrous for the UK. Obviously a few bitter and disappointed remainers see an opportunity but they just look a bit silly. The vote was to leave, it was close but that's irrelevant.

Most MPs will vote with the people I would imagine but could be wrong.

I didn't vote to leave but look forward to a new future, it could well be the best thing the UK has ever done.

Disastrous? In what way? If you meant mass protests, civil strife and/or a general strike then you're dreaming. People are far too occupied with gawping trance-like at their mobile phones, watching shite on the box or exchanging trivial messages on Facebook. The TPTB know that.