Liberalism in islamic countries

[LordKenwyne]

Or lack of.

You should be able to read it, I don't think there is a paywall on first read:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/12/09/...resident-sisi/

The below is about a 3/4's of it. The UK and is supposedly in a crisis of liberalism. If only people could gain some perceptive and stop dragging the name of Europeans through the dirt

State sponsored control and subjugation of a minority. To no outcry:

When the Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated Egyptian president, Mohamed Morsi, was ousted by a military coup in July 2013, the country’s Coptic Christians rejoiced. They saw General Abdel Fatah El-Sisi, who initiated Morsi’s removal and later became Egypt’s new president, as a savior. Bishoy Armanious, a 30-year-old electrical engineer from a suburb of Cairo, was among El-Sisi’s biggest fans. Together with thousands of Egyptians, he took it to the streets in support of the general. “We had been praying for change to happen,” Bishoy muses. “El-Sisi saved Egypt from the nothingness Morsi was leading us to.”“El-Sisi saved Egypt from the nothingness Morsi was leading us to.”

In the early days after Morsi’s ouster, many Copts shared Bishoy’s conviction. Some, like Coptic priest Makary Younan, even claimed El-Sisi had been “sent from heaven.” But Sisi’s failure to address longstanding injustices has prompted disillusionment. Many Copts now feel that the president has failed to deliver on the promise of equality he made three years ago. In a sign of mounting discontent, protests amongst the Christian community have swollen in recent months to an unprecedented degree. Once regarded as a pillar of support for the regime, Copts now constitute a growing challenge for the government in Cairo.

Copts are the region’s largest minority and constitute about 10 percent of Egypt’s population of 92 million. Under successive authoritarian leaders, they have faced systematic discrimination, and many feel they are treated as second-class citizens. Restrictions on the construction of churches are a perennial sore point. Copts have long had to deal with arduous bureaucratic procedures to obtain the documents needed to build, renovate or even patch up a church’s toilet. Rumors of new church construction are often enough to cause an outcry and even mob violence.

Relations between the state and the church deteriorated precipitously in the 1970s under President Anwar Sadat, who openly flirted with Islamist forces and even exiled Pope Shenouda III, the Coptic Church’s head. Though the relationship recovered following Sadat’s death, the position of Copts hardly changed for the better, and the building of churches remained a bargaining chip. President Mubarak, who ruled over the country from 1981 until 2011, is said to have approved the building of 10 churches during his first decade in office. At a similar annual rate, his successor Morsi approved the construction of precisely one church.

A long-awaited law regulating the construction of churches was passed by Egyptian parliament last August. But the new piece of legislation is nothing to celebrate. As Human Rights Watch argues, the law reinforces the authorities’ control and contains security provisions that risk subjecting decisions on church construction to the whims of violent mobs. Though some clerics approved of the law, it prompted a flurry of criticism from influential Copts, who argue that it seeks to maintain the state’s dominance over the Christian community. Ishaq Ibrahim, a prominent researcher at the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR), condemned the bill, claiming it “empowers the majority to decide whether the minority has the right to hold their religious practices.”

Rising sectarian violence is another problematic issue. Violence against Christians peaked in August 2013, when mobs attacked more than 200 Christian-owned properties. The authorities later vowed to reconstruct the damaged churches and houses, but those promises have only partially materialized. As a result, a many churches remain in ruins, and Christians remain vulnerable. Only two weeks ago, fifteen Coptic homes were attacked in the city of Sohag by up to 2000 assailants.Only two weeks ago, fifteen Coptic homes were attacked in the city of Sohag by up to 2000 assailants.

To make matters worse, those who attack Christians or Coptic churches frequently get away with it. Reconciliation sessions — the method authorities favored to resolve inter-communal disputes — have done little to alleviate feelings of injustice, commonly allowing perpetrators to walk free. Officially, such meetings are designed to foster communal peace outside the legal system, but the facts on the ground do not line up. A damning report published by the EIPR condemned the practice for fostering discrimination and exacerbating religious differences.

[LordKenwyne]

A few more bits:

On other occasions, the Egyptian government has itself committed violence against Copts. The most brutal example was the October 2011 Maspero Massacre, when 28 predominantly Christian protestors were brutally killed by security forces in central Cairo. Some were run over by tanks. Making the event all the more outrageous is the fact that the protestors had been demonstrating against the torching of a church in the southern city of Aswan. The incident has since come to symbolize the state’s treatment of the Copts and gave rise to the eponymous Maspero Youth Movement — a powerful union of Coptic activists.

In one widely publicized event, a 70-year-old Christian woman was stripped naked by a mob of 300 men and paraded through the streets of her village, inducing the anger of Copts nationwide. In June, Islamist mobs assaulted Coptic families in the southern province of Minya, burned a kindergarten run by Christians, and murdered a Coptic Orthodox priest in Sinai. In July, a Christian nun from a well-known monastery in Old Cairo was killed after reportedly being hit by a stray bullet on the Cairo-Alexandria highway, and a pharmacist was stabbed to death and beheaded in Tanta.

[goslow]

The religion of peace and tolerance.

[JDerrida]

On the subject of Liberalism, it was interesting to read about the 'birth' of illiberal " liberalism" by Andy McSmith and the opening shot in a cultural war on freedom as claimed by Christopher Hitchens.

The Satanic Verses novel, published in 1988 provoked great controversy in the Muslim community for what some Muslims believed were blasphemous references. Rushdie was accused of misusing Freedom of Speech. As the controversy spread, in mid-February 1989, following a violent riot against the book in Pakistan, the Ayatollah Khomeini, then Supreme Leader of Iran and a Shi'a Muslim scholar, issued a fatwa calling on all Muslims to kill Rushdie and his publishers, or to point him out to those who can kill him if they cannot themselves.

Meanwhile, the Commission for Racial Equality and a liberal think tank, the Policy Studies Institute, held seminars on the Rushdie affair. They did not invite the author , who spoke out against burning books, but did invite Shabbir Akhtar, a Cambridge philosophy graduate who called for "a negotiated compromise" which "would protect Muslim sensibilities against gratuitous provocation".

The journalist and author Andy McSmith, wrote at the time "We are witnessing, I fear, the birth of a new and dangerously illiberal "liberal" orthodoxy designed to accommodate Dr Akhtar and his fundamentalist friends."

Journalist Christopher Hitchens staunchly defended Rushdie and urged critics to condemn the violence of the fatwa instead of blaming the novel or the author. Hitchens understood the fatwa to be the opening shot in a cultural war on freedom.

Thus providing almost total freedom of expression for Muslims, whilst denying the freedom of expression regarding any concerns about Muslims under the banner of Islamophobia.

Violence, assassinations and attempts to harm.
With police protection, Rushdie escaped direct physical harm, but others associated with his book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igorashi, his Japanese translator, was stabbed to death on 11 July 1991. Ettore Capriolo, the Italian translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing in Milan on 3 July 1991. William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, was shot three times in an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993, but survived. Aziz Nezin, the Turkish translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Sivas Massacre on 2 July 1993 in Sivas Turkey, which resulted in 37 deaths.

In September 2012, Rushdie expressed doubt that The Satanic Verses would be published today because of a climate of "fear and nervousness".

Since then we have had Jerry Springer - The Opera in 2003, clearly designed to provoke Christians. Despite protestations by over 50,000 Christians in the UK, the play toured theatres in the UK and was screened on the BBC.

A provision of the 1968 Theatres Act which enshrines the right of free expression in theatrical works enabled the BBC and theatres to show the play.

The BBC's role in broadcasting the musical was raised in the UK Parliament. Generally, they voiced more concern over the reactions of Christian groups than over the show itself.

As an example, EDM no 531, BBC AND FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, was later tabled on 17 January 2005 by Dr Evan Harris MP:

That this House applauds the decision by the BBC to stick by its decision to broadcast, 'Jerry Springer - The Opera' on BBC2 on 8 January, despite the orchestrated campaign from religious pressure groups, the irresponsible actions of one of which caused alarm and distress to the families of BBC executives by making public their contact details and exposing them to hate attacks; believes that individuals have a choice whether or not to watch programmes which they are warned might be offensive to them, and that broadcasters have the right and duty to broadcast a variety of work, some of which may receive differing critical opinions; recognises that in any case this particular programme was of undoubted artistic merit as demonstrated by the opera having attracted a record number of awards, and substantial theatre audiences; reminds the BBC that its own study What the World Thinks of God suggested Britain was the most religiously sceptical country in the world and that as a publicly-funded national broadcaster the Corporation has a duty to reflect society in its output which will entail broadcasting programmes which some religious people find offensive; and calls on the BBC to stand firm against the increasingly assertive religious pressure being applied to restrict freedom of expression.

In way of contrast to how the BBC, Parliament and British Society responds differently to Islam, can anyone seriously imagine a theatre company putting on a musical version of the Satanic Verses, theatres around the UK ready and willing to show runs of the play, the BBC showing it and they and Parliament defending their right to show it, whilst simultaneously criticising understandably offended Muslims for being upset.

The Danish cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed was censored in much of Britain and Europe for fear of reprisals.

Freedom of Speech again being denied.

Attempted assassination of Danish cartoonist and murder of others who promote freedom of speech or happen to be Jewish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Copenhagen_shootings

Interesting to read in the 'aftermath' section about the numbers of 'supporters' of the terrorist.

Apologies for the long post.

[LordKenwyne]

The bit I like about Islam is that Mo tried for 9 years to convince people he was the prophet (and he failed) so he went to Israel to study how the Jews did it. He copied most of their 'ideas' and when he tried it out after he came back home it seemed to work.

The rest is history - Jews / Muslims one of the same. And both used to be peace loving - how times change.

Islam is a horrible religion, I'm not too fussed on Judaism or Christianity.

Buddhism always seemed to a nice way to be though

I've read the original Turks (Seljuks) were either Christians or Jews until a business decision meant they switched to Islam.

[lardy]

We should just abolish all religious beliefs until proven, I think there is more chance of me opening a gay christian coffee shop in Pakistan than that ever happening though.

Tolerance is something that seems to have bypassed Islam

I'm not religious in any way, but surely the thinking that 'we should' has created a lot of needless problems around the world.

[Wales-Bales]

I've read the original Turks (Seljuks) were either Christians or Jews until a business decision meant they switched to Islam.

Didn't the Khazars switch to Judaism?