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Thread: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

  1. #41
    International Vimana.'s Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I'd agree, in an ideal world then it should be facts or nothing. But I can't help but feel Trump is getting a taste of his own medicine. There was very little 'put up or shut up' from his team or Breitbart et al during the campaign.
    Absolutely! Though 'he' was not, and is not, alone in that, but 'he' certainly helped 'himself' to Trump-size dollops of it to chuck about.

    I suspect 'he' will be whining a lot more about it in the very near future.

  2. #42
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kris View Post
    When did these rumours start? I ask only because I heard a similar allegation in an American comedy broadcast I heard that was recorded last Wednesday.

    It's highlighted within Wales-Bales' links posted earlier in the thread.

    Started seeping out very early yesterday morning.
    Allegedly/supposedly the US security had been warned about the existence of such material since last October.
    The summary on Trump's misdemeanours which also details the incident carries you refer to carries a date of June 2016, though of course that may very well be more complete bollocks.

  3. #43

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    It is all bollocks Vim. If you look at the trail a 'source' at MI6 gets a dossier from allegedly a Russian 'source' and then hands it over to 'sources' in the US - one of which was John McCain (Republican) who then does the 'necessary' with it and it just so happens to get leaked out.

    Tell me where in that chain of events could there be someone somewhere who created the dodgy dossier or even the dodgy 'secret sources' - they'll be telling us next that there are WMD in Trump towers, Trump is really a secret agent for North Korea or perhaps is hair is now radio active

  4. #44
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    It is all bollocks Vim. If you look at the trail a 'source' at MI6 gets a dossier from allegedly a Russian 'source' and then hands it over to 'sources' in the US - one of which was John McCain (Republican) who then does the 'necessary' with it and it just so happens to get leaked out.

    Tell me where in that chain of events could there be someone somewhere who created the dodgy dossier or even the dodgy 'secret sources' - they'll be telling us next that there are WMD in Trump towers, Trump is really a secret agent for North Korea or perhaps is hair is now radio active
    ..ya heard it here first.

    I'm sure it is a bollocks-fest. Who'd recognise or believe any tarnished slivers truth amongst it all now anyway. And maybe that's the idea.
    Just incredible how nakedly ridiculous things have got.

  5. #45

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vimana. View Post
    ..ya heard it here first.

    I'm sure it is a bollocks-fest. Who'd recognise or believe any tarnished slivers truth amongst it all now anyway. And maybe that's the idea.
    Just incredible how nakedly ridiculous things have got.
    This is the beauty of it all. Absolutely everything can now be called 'fake news'. Nobody can be surea bout anything.

    Only thing the big cheeses have to do is make sure they're not hoisted with their own petard...

  6. #46

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    This is the beauty of it all. Absolutely everything can now be called 'fake news'. Nobody can be surea bout anything.

    Only thing the big cheeses have to do is make sure they're not hoisted with their own petard...
    Fake news is not new, it goes back thousands of years!

  7. #47
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Fake news is not new, it goes back thousands of years!
    The platforms, the immediacy, the distribution, the methods, the infrastructure that they/we have now - stepped it up into a whole new ball game.

  8. #48

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Fake news is not new, it goes back thousands of years!
    Of course, but it wasn't such a 'thing' even a couple of years ago.

  9. #49

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vimana. View Post
    The platforms, the immediacy, the distribution, the methods, the infrastructure that they/we have now - stepped it up into a whole new ball game.
    In the past fake news was presented as ideas or stories which nobody questioned, but now with the free flow of information people have wised up, and now we are at the stage where fake news can be presented as being real, and real news can be presented as being fake. So the solution is to basically take us back to stories and ideas again, where the information is secondary, and all that matters is people believe that official news is real, and everything else is fake. This is the oldest trick in the book.
    Last edited by Wales-Bales; 12-01-17 at 11:39.

  10. #50

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    This is the beauty of it all. Absolutely everything can now be called 'fake news'. Nobody can be surea bout anything.

    Only thing the big cheeses have to do is make sure they're not hoisted with their own petard...
    Exactly.

    This takes me back to the question I asked in the thread title "Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?" which has not really been answered by anyone yet. It seems some think the claims are fake news because Donald Trump says it is - would they be as quick to believe other politicians if they dismissed lurid allegations about themselves as fake news?

  11. #51
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    In the past fake news was presented as ideas or stories which nobody questioned, but now with the free flow of information people have wised up, and now we are at the stage where fake news can be presented as being real, and real news can be presented as being fake. So the solution is to basically take us back to stories and ideas again, where the information is secondary, and all that matters is people believe that official news is real, and everything else is fake. This is the oldest trick in the book.
    Who decides what is fake news?
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite...2#.WHeeFlOLSM8
    'It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled'

  12. #52

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Exactly.

    This takes me back to the question I asked in the thread title "Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?" which has not really been answered by anyone yet. It seems some think the claims are fake news because Donald Trump says it is - would they be as quick to believe other politicians if they dismissed lurid allegations about themselves as fake news?
    If you are a very famous person like Trump then you can't have anything to do with prostitutes. You might as well put an advert in the papers. I know that some British politicians have been caught with them recently but the average person the street would only be able to recognise a handful of our politicians.

  13. #53

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Exactly.

    This takes me back to the question I asked in the thread title "Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?" which has not really been answered by anyone yet. It seems some think the claims are fake news because Donald Trump says it is - would they be as quick to believe other politicians if they dismissed lurid allegations about themselves as fake news?
    I do believe most news outlets refused to touch this story because all aspects were unverifiable, i.e. a load of tosh. However, it seems there was some kind of game in play involving McCain, CIA, CNN and Buzzfeed. The timing was also suspect, coming the evening before a major press conference. If the plan was to damage Trump, then it has backfired horribly.

  14. #54
    International Vimana.'s Avatar
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    ^^ Do you really think that it/the plan 'backfired horribly ? I'm not sure. Do you see 'Trump' gaining more, staying robust, or losing some of 'his' supporters following this?
    I'd be surprised if that is the end of this one.

    But The Donald is on it now: "President-elect Donald Trump has picked former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani to form a team of private sector cybersecurity experts".
    Last edited by Vimana.; 12-01-17 at 18:02.

  15. #55

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vimana. View Post
    ^^ Do you really think that it/the plan 'backfired horribly ? I'm not sure. Do you see 'Trump' gaining more, staying robust, or losing some of 'his' supporters following this?
    I'd be surprised if that is the end of this one.

    But The Donald is on it now: "President-elect Donald Trump has picked former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani to form a team of private sector cybersecurity experts".
    It certainly made his press conference a lot easier and enhanced his outsider credentials. In fact, it's all too perfect, it's like everybody was reading from a (bad) script. Even the spat with the CNN guy seemed rehearsed

  16. #56

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    I suppose that any man who tells us he gets his way with women by grabbing them by the pussy probably doesn't need to use prostitutes.

    Let's say that there is this Fabian Society derived Liberal Elite that really runs things and is as greedy and corrupt as is claimed, then obviously they need to be brought down as soon as possible. To quote Bonnie Tyler, we need a hero to lead the "civilised" world back from the path it has been on, someone who embodies all of the things that the Clintons and Blairs of this world do not. So, who do we choose to lead this return to a more honest and better society? We choose a reality TV star who only seems to be able to campaign by attacking virtually anyone who isn't a white male of a certain age, a so called outsider who has the same dubious moral and business standards as Bill Clinton does, who has laid off people in his business empire without a second thought when his wealth was threatened - I just don't see the attraction for voters in such a man or why he gets second, third, fourth, fifth etc. etc. chances from so many that they would never give to others.
    Last edited by the other bob wilson; 13-01-17 at 05:43.

  17. #57

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    It certainly made his press conference a lot easier and enhanced his outsider credentials. In fact, it's all too perfect, it's like everybody was reading from a (bad) script. Even the spat with the CNN guy seemed rehearsed
    You've been telling us for ages that he hates and mistrusts MSM. All of a sudden they're scripting and rehearsing together???


  18. #58

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    You've been telling us for ages that he hates and mistrusts MSM. All of a sudden they're scripting and rehearsing together???

    you couldn't make it up could you
    Green Bay Wisconsin Title town USA

  19. #59

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Packerman View Post
    you couldn't make it up could you
    Easy to tell when gluey is running out of steam. We get the it's all scripted, everything has been planned for months, etc lines.

  20. #60

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    You've been telling us for ages that he hates and mistrusts MSM. All of a sudden they're scripting and rehearsing together???

    I said that's what it looks like, cos the narrative seems like it's come from a HBO drama series, but I never said it's really happening that way!

  21. #61

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Packerman View Post
    you couldn't make it up could you
    Ah, it's the fella with all the opinions, I was wondering when you would show up

  22. #62
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    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Exactly.

    This takes me back to the question I asked in the thread title "Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?" which has not really been answered by anyone yet. It seems some think the claims are fake news because Donald Trump says it is - would they be as quick to believe other politicians if they dismissed lurid allegations about themselves as fake news?
    I do not believe Trump. He is a serial liar, fantasist, and ego-maniac.

    I have no more information or insight into the dossier than anyone else, but I do not believe a single word from Trump. It is all a performance from him with the sole purpose of promoting The Donald. He could be guilty of anything. He continually contradicts himself, invents stories, defends the indefensible, abuses and corrupts what few remaining standards were in place for public debate. In the midst of a storm of fake news, my gut feeling is that these allegations are true.
    there are fascists pretending to be humanitarians like cannibals on a healthkick eating only vegetarians (Roger McGough)

  23. #63

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I do not believe Trump. He is a serial liar, fantasist, and ego-maniac.

    I have no more information or insight into the dossier than anyone else, but I do not believe a single word from Trump. It is all a performance from him with the sole purpose of promoting The Donald. He could be guilty of anything. He continually contradicts himself, invents stories, defends the indefensible, abuses and corrupts what few remaining standards were in place for public debate. In the midst of a storm of fake news, my gut feeling is that these allegations are true.
    So everything in the dossier in true then?

  24. #64

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Vim - I do some work with regards to cyber security and hacks etc and protection tools etc. No one is safe, for example CellBrite the Israeli company who hacked the iphone 5 for the FBI in the ISIS inspired shooting in the USA, Apple would not break into the phone for the FBI - so CellBrite did it , and then would not tell Apple how they did it. Well CellBrite were hacked themselves a few days ago - and data on their customers was released (not into the public domain though).

    Using various attack vectors and known 'ins' into systems means that certain companies can hack into systems - take the data they want - and then leave a finger print behind to make it look like someone else (easily done).

    It was not the Russians who hacked the Democrats network (in my humble opinion)

  25. #65

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Vim - I do some work with regards to cyber security and hacks etc and protection tools etc. No one is safe, for example CellBrite the Israeli company who hacked the iphone 5 for the FBI in the ISIS inspired shooting in the USA, Apple would not break into the phone for the FBI - so CellBrite did it , and then would not tell Apple how they did it. Well CellBrite were hacked themselves a few days ago - and data on their customers was released (not into the public domain though).

    Using various attack vectors and known 'ins' into systems means that certain companies can hack into systems - take the data they want - and then leave a finger print behind to make it look like someone else (easily done).

    It was not the Russians who hacked the Democrats network (in my humble opinion)
    Well there's your opinion, and then the opinion of the American intelligence agencies.
    I just don't know who to believe.

  26. #66

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    Well there's your opinion, and then the opinion of the American intelligence agencies.
    I just don't know who to believe.
    RJK - Believe no one is your best bet, as the people who did it will never admit to it, it's a merry go round of bluff and counter bluff.

    In your opinion who was behind the stuxnet hack ? and what were the hallmarks in the attack that convinced you ?

  27. #67

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    RJK - Believe no one is your best bet, as the people who did it will never admit to it, it's a merry go round of bluff and counter bluff.

    In your opinion who was behind the stuxnet hack ? and what were the hallmarks in the attack that convinced you ?
    I think his point is that the opinion of some guy sat in South Wales with absolutely no inside knowledge is worthless, so not sure why you asked that.

  28. #68

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I think his point is that the opinion of some guy sat in South Wales with absolutely no inside knowledge is worthless, so not sure why you asked that.
    My point being is that there is never any absolute proof in such cases. There maybe pointers - but those pointers can be easily dispelled.

    ps - I think you would be amazed at the level of cyber security resources / firms and expertise that is in the south wales area from Monmouth all the way down to Swansea - but dont let that put you off your

  29. #69

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    My point being is that there is never any absolute proof in such cases. There maybe pointers - but those pointers can be easily dispelled.

    ps - I think you would be amazed at the level of cyber security resources / firms and expertise that is in the south wales area from Monmouth all the way down to Swansea - but dont let that put you off your
    Then it would be interesting to know what the others in this hotbed think.

    On the one hand, we have the American intelligence, pretty much every technology journo and blogger that I've read and President-Elect Donald Trump himself who say that it was most likely Russia. And on the other...

  30. #70

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Vincent View Post
    If you are a very famous person like Trump then you can't have anything to do with prostitutes. You might as well put an advert in the papers. I know that some British politicians have been caught with them recently but the average person the street would only be able to recognise a handful of our politicians.
    Yep, you'd never get famous people like Hugh Grant, Charlie Sheen, Tiger Woods, Eddie Murphy, Wayne Rooney, Boy George or David Beckham mucking about with prostitutes.

  31. #71

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Yep, you'd never get famous people like Hugh Grant, Charlie Sheen, Tiger Woods, Eddie Murphy, Wayne Rooney, Boy George or David Beckham mucking about with prostitutes.
    That's it you've convinced me, when he's playing Monopoly the Water Works is the first property that Donald Trump buys every time.

  32. #72

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    That's it you've convinced me, when he's playing Monopoly the Water Works is the first property that Donald Trump buys every time.
    I'm not trying to convince anyone that Trump uses prostitutes. I've no idea. But the argument that he definitely didn't because he's famous and famous people don't go to prossies is very dumb

  33. #73

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Then it would be interesting to know what the others in this hotbed think.

    On the one hand, we have the American intelligence, pretty much every technology journo and blogger that I've read and President-Elect Donald Trump himself who say that it was most likely Russia. And on the other...
    So there you in court - and you say "most likely" , I think that "most likely" the Birmingham 6 were guilty to

    I doubt the evidence will ever be released re Stuxnet. I asked about the Stuxnet hack - as nobody knows who did that either other than it was "most likely" the Israelis / the Russians maybe the chinese or possibly (but unlikely) the US/UK - or maybe even the Anonymous group (very unlikely though) .

    The above also applies to the Democrats server being hacked, it was so unsecured - I dont believe they have even had a pen test done on it.

    The Register (well known tech journal) has some interesting comments
    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/foru...cked_election/


    Just to clarify Im not saying I know who did it (OF COURSE I DONT KNOW THAT) - it's that usually a hacker never leaves a trace, or leaves a false trace, or is so lazy they dont care if they are found out or not.

    The malware that was on the DNC server could have been left by anyone from a disgruntled employee to a hacker to the dumb secretary opening emails on behalf of her boss.

    Some interesting reads if your interested
    https://eugene.kaspersky.com/2011/11...the-spotlight/
    https://krebsonsecurity.com/category/breadcrumbs/
    https://www.wired.com/2017/01/fbi-sa...email-servers/

  34. #74

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Never sat on a jury, but I understand they use "beyond reasonable doubt". Isn't that another way of saying "most likely'?

  35. #75

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Never sat on a jury, but I understand they use "beyond reasonable doubt". Isn't that another way of saying "most likely'?
    Are you talking about Trump using prostitutes or the DNC hack or Stuxnet ?

    I thought the quote was beyond ALL reasonable doubt ?

    Trump using prostitutes - no idea, DNC - will never go to court. Stuxnet hack was in Iran - and never traced officially.

    ps - looking forward to Burton on Saturday

  36. #76

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Are you talking about Trump using prostitutes or the DNC hack or Stuxnet ?

    I thought the quote was beyond ALL reasonable doubt ?

    Trump using prostitutes - no idea, DNC - will never go to court. Stuxnet hack was in Iran - and never traced officially.

    ps - looking forward to Burton on Saturday
    My convo with you is about DNC, the one that Trump said "I think it was Russia"

    Semantics, but I believe it is 'beyond (a) reasonable doubt'.

  37. #77

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    My convo with you is about DNC, the one that Trump said "I think it was Russia"

    Semantics, but I believe it is 'beyond (a) reasonable doubt'.
    The original Malware was attributed to APT 28/Fancy Bear. Part of the code / phishing attack is that they register domains that are very close or misspelled versions of legit domains. Some of the eviudence being put forward says that they have found some text files with russian words in them. The problem with this is that it is not a Russian technique - it is a general technique used by many.

    Most hackers will use the same set of tools to perform the hack, and the Malware used in the DNC hack had been used before. If you recall the Mossack Fonseca (panama papers) then their setup was so easy to hack based on poor design and un secured servers - it was a hack waiting to happen.

    Bill Gates (microsoft founder and software developer) once used the DOS operating system. So did I once , but that doesnt make me a billionaire software developer. The same incorrect correlation is being made with regards to the DNC hack.

    Cozy Bear / APT28 / Guccifer 2.0 etc all interesting stories and conjecture - but in reality - it could have been anyone. It was probably the Israelis, The Russians, The Ukranians, The Chinese, Anonymous, The Koreans. And whoever did it will try and make it look like someone else.

    Considering Trumps stance on Israel you could make an argument for it being them.

  38. #78

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    The original Malware was attributed to APT 28/Fancy Bear. Part of the code / phishing attack is that they register domains that are very close or misspelled versions of legit domains. Some of the eviudence being put forward says that they have found some text files with russian words in them. The problem with this is that it is not a Russian technique - it is a general technique used by many.

    Most hackers will use the same set of tools to perform the hack, and the Malware used in the DNC hack had been used before. If you recall the Mossack Fonseca (panama papers) then their setup was so easy to hack based on poor design and un secured servers - it was a hack waiting to happen.

    Bill Gates (microsoft founder and software developer) once used the DOS operating system. So did I once , but that doesnt make me a billionaire software developer. The same incorrect correlation is being made with regards to the DNC hack.

    Cozy Bear / APT28 / Guccifer 2.0 etc all interesting stories and conjecture - but in reality - it could have been anyone. It was probably the Israelis, The Russians, The Ukranians, The Chinese, Anonymous, The Koreans. And whoever did it will try and make it look like someone else.

    Considering Trumps stance on Israel you could make an argument for it being them.
    Perhaps when Trump said "I think it was Russia", he knew something you didn't?

  39. #79

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    BTW, thanks for telling me who Bill Gates is

  40. #80

    Re: Do you believe Trump and, if you do, why do you?

    You're believing everything Trump says now , Trump believes whatever suits him at the time. You'll be walking in to work later calling the women sluts and grabbing them by the 'pussy'
    btw - most people dont seem to know who Gates is.

    now are you the last word monkey I think you are, please carry on but I'm all done here

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