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Thread: Trump on the Middle East

  1. #1

    Trump on the Middle East

    Listening to what he's had to say, I get the distinct feeling that he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile....?client=safari

    He's just making it up as he goes along isn't he?

  2. #2

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    I don't know whether he's making it up as he goes along, listening to his advisers or whether these are his own thoughts. I expect a little of all three, though any time he gets to contrast to Obama he seems positively gleeful. Think it was Jon who echoed Bernie Sanders' in saying that the good should be supported and the bad should be opposed - this hints of something I feel should be opposed.

    In slightly related news, 2 NFL football players have dropped out a tour of Israel upon learning that they (too) were going to be shown a very limited view of Israel with the hope of recruiting them to sell what it can offer. They've chosen to go and see Israel and Palestine and form their own view.

  3. #3

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Just read a piece on the NFL players. Wow, what a guy that Michael Bennet is. I thought the times of sports stars having a political conscience had long gone. What a great model for youngsters.

  4. #4

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Yep great to see those players want to see things for themselves rather than be bombarded with propaganda.

  5. #5

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shitpeas View Post
    Listening to what he's had to say, I get the distinct feeling that he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.


    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile....?client=safari

    He's just making it up as he goes along isn't he?

    This will make your eyes open wider.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGA-F-Jv34M

  6. #6

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Yes he sounds dumb ,however although the previous clever tongued presidents have been more articulate ,they have achieved zilch.

    In fact you could say it's worse now??

  7. #7

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCPhil View Post
    This will make your eyes open wider.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGA-F-Jv34M
    Drama

  8. #8

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    He also said that Palestine will need to recognise the state of Israel - something which they have done since the 1980s apparently.

    In some ways a one state solution would make sense, although the problem for Israel is that would be a majority Muslim country. So the only way that country would remain a "Jewish" state is if Muslims living there had no voting rights and were second class citizens.
    Surely that isn't something we should be backing?

    In an ideal world it would be a single secular state with equal rights for all but we will be waiting a while for that.

  9. #9
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    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    I don't think Trump is going to do anything good for the Middle East even by accident.

    He doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't 'do detail' or understand the history and objectives of the main protagonists. His 'policy tweets' reflect the last conversation he had and flip-flop all over the place. He has surrounded himself with a bizarre mix of far right one-state Zionists who are determined to maintain an expansionist, settler, Jewish state protected by the USA (as opposed to a state where Jewish people can live in freedom and safety) and of far right anti semitic white supremacists.

    In the meantime the best realistic compromise of a two-state solution that has emerged painfully over 20+ years through blood, sweat and tears, is about to be abandoned. Netanyahu has tried to kill it. Trump may well succeed.

  10. #10
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    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    I don't know whether he's making it up as he goes along, listening to his advisers or whether these are his own thoughts. I expect a little of all three, though any time he gets to contrast to Obama he seems positively gleeful. Think it was Jon who echoed Bernie Sanders' in saying that the good should be supported and the bad should be opposed - this hints of something I feel should be opposed.

    In slightly related news, 2 NFL football players have dropped out a tour of Israel upon learning that they (too) were going to be shown a very limited view of Israel with the hope of recruiting them to sell what it can offer. They've chosen to go and see Israel and Palestine and form their own view.
    The Bernie Sanders quote I was trying to remember was this:

    “Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics, and the establishment media,” Sanders said, echoing some of the themes of his own campaign.

    “People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes, and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids — all while the very rich become much richer.

    “To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic, and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him,”

  11. #11

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    I wonder if they had a referendum in Israel with the following options, what the outcome would be..

    Option the first: dismantle all illegal settlements, return Israel to the borders in the original internationally recognised agreement, maintain Israel as a jewish nation neighbouring a viable Palestinian state.

    Option the second: Make one state encompassing all of Israel Palestine and disputed lands. The state is secular but equally protects the rights of Jewish and Islamic people.

  12. #12

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    I wonder if they had a referendum in Israel with the following options, what the outcome would be..

    Option the first: dismantle all illegal settlements, return Israel to the borders in the original internationally recognised agreement, maintain Israel as a jewish nation neighbouring a viable Palestinian state.

    Option the second: Make one state encompassing all of Israel Palestine and disputed lands. The state is secular but equally protects the rights of Jewish and Islamic people.
    In an ideal world of course number two would be wonderful. Arabs and Jews living side by side in peace. But the idea of Jews potentially becoming a minority in such a state means that it is never going to happen.

  13. #13

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shitpeas View Post
    In an ideal world of course number two would be wonderful. Arabs and Jews living side by side in peace. But the idea of Jews potentially becoming a minority in such a state means that it is never going to happen.
    The way the demographics of the region are going they are going to have to make some version of this decision sooner rather than later.

  14. #14

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I don't think Trump is going to do anything good for the Middle East even by accident.

    He doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't 'do detail' or understand the history and objectives of the main protagonists. His 'policy tweets' reflect the last conversation he had and flip-flop all over the place. He has surrounded himself with a bizarre mix of far right one-state Zionists who are determined to maintain an expansionist, settler, Jewish state protected by the USA (as opposed to a state where Jewish people can live in freedom and safety) and of far right anti semitic white supremacists.

    In the meantime the best realistic compromise of a two-state solution that has emerged painfully over 20+ years through blood, sweat and tears, is about to be abandoned. Netanyahu has tried to kill it. Trump may well succeed.
    I'm not saying Trump is another Hitler or anything, but I've been watching "The Nazis, A Warning From History" in the last couple of weeks and, although I knew that he was thought to be lazy, I didn't realise quite how lazy he was until I saw last week's episode. Hitler was seen to be hardly a details man as well as the programme claimed that some of the Nazi's worst pre war excesses were more down to underlings doing what they thought the Fuhrer (who it seems was willing to rubber stamp an awful lot , rather than go deep into what was proposed) wanted, than at the insistence of the man himself.

    I repeat, I'm not accusing Donald Trump of being Hitler Mark Two, but I think there appear to be some parallels in the way the two men operate(d).

  15. #15

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCPhil View Post
    This will make your eyes open wider.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGA-F-Jv34M

  16. #16

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    I find it very strange he said he would remove America from wars that don't concern them.

    Then yesterday they were on about ground troops in Syria.

    George Bush and other experienced leaders didn't understand the dynamics and long term impact of their actions in the region, let alone TV's finest Donald who probably couldn't tell you their is a divide in islam until a few weeks ago.

    The nations there will be scrabbling as I think they realise America doesn't have a concrete goal apart from protecting the usually band of merry men, Arabia Israel.

    He has gone back to the suicidally tiring default position of claiming Iran is the devil.

    I imagine things are going to get worse as military men will be making the decisions, not the pretend pacifist Obama.
    Last edited by LordKenwyne; 16-02-17 at 13:15.

  17. #17
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    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I'm not saying Trump is another Hitler or anything, but I've been watching "The Nazis, A Warning From History" in the last couple of weeks and, although I knew that he was thought to be lazy, I didn't realise quite how lazy he was until I saw last week's episode. Hitler was seen to be hardly a details man as well as the programme claimed that some of the Nazi's worst pre war excesses were more down to underlings doing what they thought the Fuhrer (who it seems was willing to rubber stamp an awful lot , rather than go deep into what was proposed) wanted, than at the insistence of the man himself.

    I repeat, I'm not accusing Donald Trump of being Hitler Mark Two, but I think there appear to be some parallels in the way the two men operate(d).
    I've seen many people who are convinced he is just like him, I have no idea what to say to these people anymore, they are comparing Trump who has never killed anyone as far as I'm aware to Hitler who killed millions, how do go about having a sensible logical conversation with someone who thinks like that? He's offensive yes, but he is not a murderer.

    'The definition of indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically'

    People are calling Trump and his supporters Nazis to dehumanise them, it gives them a easy moral justification to inflict online abuse and violence towards them, it's a very dangerous path imo.

  18. #18

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R View Post
    I've seen many people who are convinced he is just like him, I have no idea what to say to these people anymore, they are comparing Trump who has never killed anyone as far as I'm aware to Hitler who killed millions, how do go about having a sensible logical conversation with someone who thinks like that? He's offensive yes, but he is not a murderer.

    'The definition of indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically'

    People are calling Trump and his supporters Nazis to dehumanise them, it gives them a easy moral justification to inflict online abuse and violence towards them, it's a very dangerous path imo.
    I agree it's a dangerous comparison, i tend to avoid making it because it tends to be counter productive.

    I dont think most people making the comparison are saying that trump is going to kill 20 million people, but in the same breath i dont think Hitler in the 30s would have realised what would pan out over the coming decade.

    TOBWs comparison was an interesting one and doesn't imply that trump will murder anyone. Perhaps there is a better charismatic leader who makes bold statements and leaves things for others to sort out the details who would be a better example.
    Vincent Tan? Hogo Chávez? Castro?

  19. #19

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R View Post
    I've seen many people who are convinced he is just like him, I have no idea what to say to these people anymore, they are comparing Trump who has never killed anyone as far as I'm aware to Hitler who killed millions, how do go about having a sensible logical conversation with someone who thinks like that? He's offensive yes, but he is not a murderer.

    'The definition of indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically'

    People are calling Trump and his supporters Nazis to dehumanise them, it gives them a easy moral justification to inflict online abuse and violence towards them, it's a very dangerous path imo.
    I think Trump is someone who has and will attract Nazi supporters, but I agree that, based on what he's done up to now anyway, there is little, if anything, to justify any claims that he is another Hitler.

    I'm talking only in terms of the way Hitler and Trump approach(ed) the task of running their country and it would appear that there are what I'd say were dangerous parallels between them - nothing to do with their politics, more the type of men they are/were and whether that would be a problem in a job like that - obviously, it was for one of them.
    Last edited by the other bob wilson; 16-02-17 at 16:04.

  20. #20

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    If anything Trump is more interesting that Hitler as Trump could be fact-checked in almost real time and yet still people voted for him. Where Trump does compare obviously being in the early days of Hitler's leadership rather than where Nazism was leading to.

    Jonathan Pie makes the point that shutting opposing views down is exactly what the left should be fighting against rather than copying, and Bernie Sanders has a video where he talks to (I think it's people in his own state) Trump voters and tries to engage in debate with the audience being pretty receptive to his views by the end. Dehumanising ordinary Trump supporters seems to be far more the former than the latter.

  21. #21

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Bob - All political leaders want to get the unemployed back to work, grow the economy, give free health care to all etc. These were Hitlers priorities (Hitler was left wing) , they were also the policies of Thatcher, Tony Blair, Harold Wilson, Obama and Trump. So you see politicians from Left and Right have the same general goals - it's called Politics and it's just the rhetoric that changes
    I'm not entirely sure you can claim Trump or Thatcher want free health care for all, and claiming Hitler was left wing is a stretch even if there are labour voters who despise socialism almost as much as conservatism.

  22. #22

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Bob - All political leaders want to get the unemployed back to work, grow the economy, give free health care to all etc. These were Hitlers priorities (Hitler was left wing) , they were also the policies of Thatcher, Tony Blair, Harold Wilson, Obama and Trump. So you see politicians from Left and Right have the same general goals - it's called Politics and it's just the rhetoric that changes
    I don't think I could have put it any clearer that what I was saying was not about politics, it was about the type of person they were/are and whether that made them temperamently suited for such a job.

    Although it may not come across on here, my main misgivings about Trump are more personal than political. I'm no fan of his politics, but I dislike him mostly for the type of man he is and, if things go seriously wrong with his Presideny, I think it will be his personality that will be at the heart of it, not his politics.

    Jeremy Corbyn is someone who I feel is pretty close to what I would call my politics, but almost everything I've seen from him as Labour leader says he is not temperamentally suited to the job - as you have said, he's a dissenter, not a leader. Again, it's the man, not his politics, that is the problem with Corbyn as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by the other bob wilson; 16-02-17 at 17:22.

  23. #23

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I don't think Trump is going to do anything good for the Middle East even by accident.

    He doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't 'do detail' or understand the history and objectives of the main protagonists. His 'policy tweets' reflect the last conversation he had and flip-flop all over the place. He has surrounded himself with a bizarre mix of far right one-state Zionists who are determined to maintain an expansionist, settler, Jewish state protected by the USA (as opposed to a state where Jewish people can live in freedom and safety) and of far right anti semitic white supremacists.

    In the meantime the best realistic compromise of a two-state solution that has emerged painfully over 20+ years through blood, sweat and tears, is about to be abandoned. Netanyahu has tried to kill it. Trump may well succeed.
    Trump never said he doesn't support a 2-state solution. He said he will back whatever agreement Israel AND Palestine think is the best for them.

  24. #24

    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R View Post
    I've seen many people who are convinced he is just like him, I have no idea what to say to these people anymore, they are comparing Trump who has never killed anyone as far as I'm aware to Hitler who killed millions, how do go about having a sensible logical conversation with someone who thinks like that? He's offensive yes, but he is not a murderer.

    'The definition of indoctrination is the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically'

    People are calling Trump and his supporters Nazis to dehumanise them, it gives them a easy moral justification to inflict online abuse and violence towards them, it's a very dangerous path imo.
    Have you asked them to substantiate their opinion?

  25. #25
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Trump on the Middle East

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Trump never said he doesn't support a 2-state solution. He said he will back whatever agreement Israel AND Palestine think is the best for them.
    Who knows what he's said or what he means.

    He backed off decades long US support for a 2 state solution whilst standing in a press conference next to Netanyahu - who has been actively trying to sabotage that model for years - and the even more far right members of his coalition are pulling him further and faster in that direction with (elements of) Trump administration encouragement. He said something and nothing as usual, but it seems to me the subtext was 'whatever Benjamin and his government want'!

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/16/po...ans-two-state/

    Then less than a day later the US ambassador to the UN contradicted him:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7584386.html

    The Trump speech has been universally interpreted as a policy U turn because that is just what it is. However a day later he could spin around again and end up where he started. It is incompetent and chaotic and very dangerous.

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