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Thread: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

  1. #1

    The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Labour retain Stoke albeit with a reduced majority and shortly afterwards get thumped by the tories in Copeland.

    Whether 'Blessed be the name of the Lord' then applies really depends on your point of view!!

  2. #2

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Dreadful night for Labour. A triumph for the Tories. I suspect there will be another challenge to Corbyn's leadership but this time from bigger player. Unless Labour get their act together they face a disaster in 2020.

  3. #3

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Dreadful night for Labour. A triumph for the Tories. I suspect there will be another challenge to Corbyn's leadership but this time from bigger player. Unless Labour get their act together they face a disaster in 2020.
    Think they would have lost Stoke as well if the UKIP campaign hadn't imploded.

  4. #4

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    UKIP look finished, not sure where they go from here.
    Labour need a change of leadership, fortunately for them the electorate only votes on things in the 12-18 months before an election.but they seriously need to get their shit together.
    I like Corbyn, but the media have done such a number on him that his public perception is unrescuable. I know people who have a seriously negative view of him but could not tell you why or what any of his policies are. You cannot come back from that.

  5. #5

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Think they would have lost Stoke as well if the UKIP campaign hadn't imploded.
    Yeah Nutter lost that himself.

    I haven't paid much attention to these but isn't Copeland result mostly about Corbyn's stance on nuclear?

  6. #6

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Yeah Nutter lost that himself.

    I haven't paid much attention to these but isn't Copeland result mostly about Corbyn's stance on nuclear?
    That's what Labour are saying.

  7. #7

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    That's what half of Labour are saying.
    Fyp

  8. #8

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    It's all very predictable, the anti-Corbyn media protecting the establishment, and the Labour Party full of Globalists who don't care about local UK policies. I agree UKIP are finished. So does Arron Banks, who is waiting in the wings to form a new Trump inspired populist party.

  9. #9

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    It sure is interesting times - there seems to be a need for a party to fill in the gap left by Lab and the Libs. I dont think it will happen though - it costs too much money. It needs either Labour or Lib Dems to change.

    Labour under Corbyn are going further left and becoming even more irrelevant. Having said that - I do have time for him - his ideas are great in theory - it's just they never seem to work in practice - and he gets caught up in internal wrangles which he cant defend - like why any MP should be loyal to him.
    Don't underestimate Banks, he has already made numerous trips to meet with Trump and his people. A British/US alliance would make a lot of sense for both parties. There is also that whole Breitbart/Cambridge Analytica thing going on. Besides that, Trump has already proved that you don't need an endless supply of cash to win an election race. Analytics, web based media, and social media are very powerful tools these days.

  10. #10

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Very good night for the Tories :

    UKIP done away from a very winnable seat so not another UKIP MP in the commons tp worry about

    Labour Leader to staying mist please them ,who although has a big membership , it doesn't appear to appeal to the people on the streets Tories who should be under pressure, are now not facing any tough electoral opposition for another few months.

    I wonder if we will see more centralist Labour resignation , and is this some form of concerted effort from within the PLP to create these by elections?? there must be a few centralist Labour MP like Hunt who feel doomed , or looking at deselection ,so got nothing to lose but walk away ,cause chaos,put pressure on the leadership , and sail off to a nice job and quieter life ??

  11. #11

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    This is part of the problem for Labour. There are not many heavyweight politicians in the shadow cabinet.
    There are plenty of up and coming politicians in the ranks but they have yet to gain the trust of the public.
    Now is not Labour's time. Similar to the Tories in the noughties. I did not think for one minute the Tories were finished back then. Nor do I think Labour are done for now but believe 2025 may well be the earliest they regain power as by then the electorate are likely to be fed up of the Tories.

  12. #12

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    They lost because of Corbyn. If they had David Milliband as leader for example - I doubt very much if the results would have been the same.

    Socialists talking to other Socialists about Socialism in a room full of Socialists and no one else seems (to Corbyn anyway) to prove he is popular. The centre right / centre left is where the UK swing vote is - Corbyn and it seems the vast majority of the Labour supporters dont get that.

    Time for a change

    Corbyn a man has voted against his own party whip over 400 times - now demands respect and obedience from his MPs - yeah right.
    The problem with the Labour Party is that change,meaning to more centre politics is impossible because the majority of party members who vote in leaders such as Corbyn live in cloud cuckoo land. He should resign now and the leadership selection should be remodelled ,and then maybe in 10 years time you may see a labour government again, I'll be gone by then

  13. #13

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Why should Labour have to be centrist? A lot of us don't want them to be a watered down version of the Tories. A radical and energised Labour party under a charismatic leader with plans to sort out our forgotten towns and cities is what is required. Corbyn is not the answer but in truth he was never given a chance by the press who set out to destroy him from the word go.

  14. #14

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Corbyn is uncharasmatic and uninspiring. He needs to find some passion fast.

  15. #15

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Why should Labour have to be centrist? A lot of us don't want them to be a watered down version of the Tories. A radical and energised Labour party under a charismatic leader with plans to sort out our forgotten towns and cities is what is required. Corbyn is not the answer but in truth he was never given a chance by the press who set out to destroy him from the word go.
    So who is the answer to this energised Labour party under a charismatic leader as it seems to me that the left are highly principled whcih doesn't sit with charisma and energy , forward looking, new principles is not looking back at resurrecting old social attitudes ,its about being bold a new a setting an agenda that challenges the norm putting pressure on a Tory government that is ploughing the same furrow without being challenged ,like it or not to get elected as a government your words are critical " energised Labour party under a charismatic leader, I would add new thoughts , direction, acceptance that some parts of the NHS can no longer be fully be funded from the pubic purse ,stop using it as a political football , be strong on the benefits systems so it rewards workers and avoids them choice of doing nothing , put up taxes to fund social care ,front up defense on moral grounds, agree too many immigrants find it easy to land on our shares not to seek benefits but earn our generous minimum wage ,and fix it .

  16. #16

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    So who is the answer to this energised Labour party under a charismatic leader as it seems to me that the left are highly principled whcih doesn't sit with charisma and energy , forward looking, new principles is not looking back at resurrecting old social attitudes ,its about being bold a new a setting an agenda that challenges the norm putting pressure on a Tory government that is ploughing the same furrow without being challenged ,like it or not to get elected as a government your words are critical " energised Labour party under a charismatic leader, I would add new thoughts , direction, acceptance that some parts of the NHS can no longer be fully be funded from the pubic purse ,stop using it as a political football , be strong on the benefits systems so it rewards workers and avoids them choice of doing nothing , put up taxes to fund social care ,front up defense on moral grounds, agree too many immigrants find it easy to land on our shares not to seek benefits but earn our generous minimum wage ,and fix it .
    Possibly Dan Jarvis. If not him maybe Clive Lewis. I wouldn't rule out Keir Starmer although he is more solid than charismatic. Some of your comments above are fair enough but not in regard to immigrants. We are already hearing of sectors worried that there will be a shortage of labour because of Brexit.

  17. #17

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    Corbyn is uncharasmatic and uninspiring. He needs to find some passion fast.
    Yes I accept this. I don't think he will change and his focus on getting his message across via social meeting is not working.

  18. #18

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    This is like an old record - it wont be a lack immigrants that will be a problem. Immigration will always be needed - but what is needed is the control of immigration. Just like it was pre Maastricht - you want to move to another country - you get a job, you get approved or rejected - simple as that.

    What the EU seems want is access to cheap labour for big business. I would have thought that is something the left wing would not be in favour of
    Why do you assume its big business?.A lot of immigrants work for small caterers, farmers,hotels etc.
    The EU don't dictate what employers decice to pay. Thats entirely the employers responsibility. Yet you chose to blame the EU and not the employers

  19. #19

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    The EU don't dictate what employers 'decice' to pay - I know that , the market decides, and mostly it's minimum wage - there is no incentive for an employer to pay more - as there is a ready supply of cheap labour out there. You dont like it - no problem there are plenty of others that will do the job. It's a glass ceiling for the low paid.

    I used to work in Europe - pre maastricht , I had to apply for the job, the employer had to prove there was no other person in the country that was being over looked etc , when I got the job I had to sign a document saying that after my contract had ended I would not make a claim for social security in the country etc.
    Good for you on pointing out my typo. Maastricht is a capital M by the way. I would add overlooked is one word.I understand your comments but ultimately its down to the employer what they pay and I suspect its often below the minimum wage. Thats not the fault of the EU nor the immigrant. Its not the market either. Its the specific individual employer.To blame others is an abrogation of ths employer's responsibility.

  20. #20

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Possibly Dan Jarvis. If not him maybe Clive Lewis. I wouldn't rule out Keir Starmer although he is more solid than charismatic. Some of your comments above are fair enough but not in regard to immigrants. We are already hearing of sectors worried that there will be a shortage of labour because of Brexit.
    I'm not saying no immigration , I am purely pointing out what Labour voters generally think and see , hence their steer towards UKIP, the mood music form the current Labour administration does not appear to be about any control ,regulation, quotas,or even forward discussion , as it crosses those highly held principles , that were fine 20 years ago , not any longer, you only have to see the impact in the poorest northern towns or run down coastal areas ,the big cities are in need of this labour , and its absorbed and hidden .

    I think regional quotas may be the answer as places like London would grind to a halt with our migration labour

  21. #21

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I'm not saying no immigration , I am purely pointing out what Labour voters generally think and see , hence their steer towards UKIP, the mood music form the current Labour administration does not appear to be about any control ,regulation, quotas,or even forward discussion , as it crosses those highly held principles , that were fine 20 years ago , not any longer, you only have to see the impact in the poorest northern towns or run down coastal areas ,the big cities are in need of this labour , and its absorbed and hidden .

    I think regional quotas may be the answer as places like London would grind to a halt with our migration labour
    Yep I think thats a sensible way to go.

  22. #22

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Why do you assume its big business?.A lot of immigrants work for small caterers, farmers,hotels etc.
    The EU don't dictate what employers decice to pay. Thats entirely the employers responsibility. Yet you chose to blame the EU and not the employers
    Here's an idea , we pay £1 above the migrants originating countries minimum wage , with another £1 for big city employment. Benefits paid after one of continued work for more than a year , if no work has been found by year two, a free passage return to their originating country and town .

  23. #23

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Here's an idea , we pay £1 above the migrants originating countries minimum wage , with another £1 for big city employment. Benefits paid after one of continued work for more than a year , if no work has been found by year two, a free passage return to their originating country and town .
    I don't see that as practical as living costs are likely to be much higher in the UK than the country from which the migrant originates.

  24. #24

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Yep I think thats a sensible way to go.
    The tough question for die hard socialist ,would they. would they support charges for minor GP visits/care fort those who can afford it , charges at A&E for drunken injuries , to ease the burden, stop child benefit for the £100k per annum families , stand up to pointless greedy strikes, like train drivers , instead of saying nothing , all radical but in another direction ,for me to keep voting Labour I'd like new ideas that carry some pain , and risk , its too easy to say nationalise this , let more people in we have plenty , tax the rich,its so old hat ?

  25. #25

    Re: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Here's an idea , we pay £1 above the migrants originating countries minimum wage , with another £1 for big city employment. Benefits paid after one of continued work for more than a year , if no work has been found by year two, a free passage return to their originating country and town .
    That is a terrible idea.

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