After tonight's Barca PSG game

[Dr Lecter]

People are saying that was neymar's best ever performance.

I thought he was complete and utter turd.

Let's look at the facts.

88 mins gone - Barca 5-3 down on aggregate and on their way out.

Full time - Barca win 6-5 on aggregate thanks to 3 late goals (2 goals and an assist by Neymar)

Perhaps he was utter turd for the first 87 minutes?

Apart from when he won the penalty for Barca's third goal.

If he's utter turd when he gets 2 goals and 2 assists in the greatest comeback of a generation then god help the opponent when he has a stormer.

[LordKenwyne]

Let's look at the facts.

88 mins gone - Barca 5-3 down on aggregate and on their way out.

Full time - Barca win 6-5 on aggregate thanks to 3 late goals (2 goals and an assist by Neymar)

Perhaps he was utter turd for the first 87 minutes?

Apart from when he won the penalty for Barca's third goal.

If he's utter turd when he gets 2 goals and 2 assists in the greatest comeback of a generation then god help the opponent when he has a stormer.

Ye I accept he did the business. Taking a pen when king cheat suarez also did what was required of him.

PSG sat back and allowed the onslaught. He had so many chances to run at the defence. He was dire for majority of his attempts.

I like him as a player though I think he'll be a ballon d'or contender. Messi wasn't as involved last night so it was down to Neymar too much

[Heisenberg]

Chris, you just said that you wanted 'David v Goliath' finals it's been pointed out that there have been lots of them in the FA Cup since 2000 but now it's not relevant as the 'David' teams didn't win

[thehumblegringo]

Ye I accept he did the business. Taking a pen when king cheat suarez also did what was required of him.

PSG sat back and allowed the onslaught. He had so many chances to run at the defence. He was dire for majority of his attempts.

I like him as a player though I think he'll be a ballon d'or contender. Messi wasn't as involved last night so it was down to Neymar too much

I agree that he was garbage for 87 minutes and i put that on here at the time.
What i like about Neymar though is his bravery to keep trying things when it's not going for him.

He's no Messi and Iniesta cos his option choices are often poor whereas the other two tend to pick the correct option 9 times out of 10.

Kadeem Harris is similar to Neymar (not in ability) but in mentality in that when he's losing the ball all the time, the next time he picks it up he'll go at the defender again and if this results in one or two goals a game then his job is done like in the Burton game.

[chris]

You've got the makings of a good point in there somewhere but I'll help you get it out. There's no point using FA Cup finals as a benchmark because you don't need to be a huge club to get there. The last seven finals have had Wigan, Villa, Stoke, Hull, Portsmouth and Palace in it.

There's also no point looking at the top end of the Premier League. For about a decade, only Man Utd and Arsenal won it - and they were so far ahead it looked like they would dominate for another decade. Then Abramovich came along and now the top of the league is as open as I have ever known it to be.

What you need to be looking at is the bottom end of the PL. That's what can become a closed shop as the teams that get relegated have a strong chance to bounce back straight away and it becomes ever more difficult for other clubs to get promotion (as Leeds will testify). But the top of the league doesn't prove your point at all because there are half a dozen clubs who have a very realistic chance of winning it this season, and even the current champions aren't in that list. Next season it will be just as open.

Now you can thank me for helping your argument.

the top end of the premier league as been a closed shop for years, barring leicester winning it last season, the top four virtually picks itself every season, barring a miracle chelsea have already won it and we are only at the beginning of march

as for the teams coming down and going straight back up again, where are villa and norwich this season ? the championship is a far more open league than the premier league will ever be simply because the top five or six command most of the money especially from sky tv, champions league, gate receipts, sponsorships etc.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

As uncomfortable as it is, I have to agree with Chris. The Prem and especially the Champs league are practically cabals and were designed to be so. So when I watch a game like last night's I feel the quality but the edge is taken off by knowing that the same teams from the same countries will be back again next year and virtually every year unless they cock it up big time (rather than a consistent resurgence of other teams/countries).

I agree there are anomalies and there have always been dominant teams but the 'giants' are given a far greater chance these days.

[lardy]

the top end of the premier league as been a closed shop for years, barring leicester winning it last season, the top four virtually picks itself every season, barring a miracle chelsea have already won it and we are only at the beginning of march

as for the teams coming down and going straight back up again, where are villa and norwich this season ? the championship is a far more open league than the premier league will ever be simply because the top five or six command most of the money especially from sky tv, champions league, gate receipts, sponsorships etc.

The top four was a closed shop, but since Man City forced their way in it's become more open. Spurs are genuine contenders every year now.

Chelsea will probably win it this season. They finished 10th last season. Man Utd's last three finishes are 5th, 4th and 7th after being 1st or 2nd nearly every season for two decades. It definitely doesn't pick itself any more. Again, I'd like you to tell me a time when you couldn't have a very accurate stab at who would finish in the top end.


As for the Championship, Norwich bounced back in one season last time they came down. Maybe they won't this season but Newcastle will. Villa are a badly run club, so it's no surprise they are struggling. The three promoted teams last season were Burnley, Hull and Middlesbro - Burnley and Hull have both been promoted three times in less than a decade, while Middlesbro were an established PL team for over a decade themselves, until they slumped.

In fact, since we got promoted, Bournemouth is the only 'new' team to go up. It would be amazing if Brighton and Huddersfield both manage it this season.

[chris]

The top four was a closed shop, but since Man City forced their way in it's become more open. Spurs are genuine contenders every year now.

Chelsea will probably win it this season. They finished 10th last season. Man Utd's last three finishes are 5th, 4th and 7th after being 1st or 2nd nearly every season for two decades. It definitely doesn't pick itself any more. Again, I'd like you to tell me a time when you couldn't have a very accurate stab at who would finish in the top end.


As for the Championship, Norwich bounced back in one season last time they came down. Maybe they won't this season but Newcastle will. Villa are a badly run club, so it's no surprise they are struggling. The three promoted teams last season were Burnley, Hull and Middlesbro - Burnley and Hull have both been promoted three times in less than a decade, while Middlesbro were an established PL team for over a decade themselves, until they slumped.

In fact, since we got promoted, Bournemouth is the only 'new' team to go up. It would be amazing if Brighton and Huddersfield both manage it this season.

i agree over newcastle going up: , but this season two teams out of brighton, huddersfield, leeds, sheffield wednesday, reading or maybe even fulham are going to join them. none of them sides have been in the premier league for donkeys years , in fact some have never been in the premier league at all .

the point i am making is there is far more variety in the championship and chance of promotion, i could hazard a guess already who will finish top four in the premier league next season , me and many others including probably yourself, would not have a clue with any certainty who will be top six in the championship next season.

[lardy]

As uncomfortable as it is, I have to agree with Chris. The Prem and especially the Champs league are practically cabals and were designed to be so. So when I watch a game like last night's I feel the quality but the edge is taken off by knowing that the same teams from the same countries will be back again next year and virtually every year unless they cock it up big time (rather than a consistent resurgence of other teams/countries).

I agree there are anomalies and there have always been dominant teams but the 'giants' are given a far greater chance these days.

The Champions League is like a cabal, now, yes. The PL title was for a while - around 2000, we were 90% sure Man Utd would win it and if they didn't it would be Arsenal. Now you're looking at four or five clubs with a genuine chance (not counting one-offs like Leicester). To go back to chris' post earlier, six or seven clubs ruling the roost is actually very competitive. I don't see that in any other big league.

But with each year that passes, it's the midtable teams who move further away from Championship level, clubs like West Brom, Stoke, Southampton, dare I say it Swansea. That's where the closed shop comes in.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

The Champions League is like a cabal, now, yes. The PL title was for a while - around 2000, we were 90% sure Man Utd would win it and if they didn't it would be Arsenal. Now you're looking at four or five clubs with a genuine chance (not counting one-offs like Leicester). To go back to chris' post earlier, six or seven clubs ruling the roost is actually very competitive. I don't see that in any other big league.

But with each year that passes, it's the midtable teams who move further away from Championship level, clubs like West Brom, Stoke, Southampton, dare I say it Swansea. That's where the closed shop comes in.

Yeah, all good points. It's certainly more open than other leagues but open to whom? I'm not so sure Sheff Weds, Palace, Leeds, Villa, Forest, Norwich, Everton, West Ham, Southampton, Watford, Ipswich, West Brom, QPR and Derby (or teams of that ilk) would get into the top 4 now (as they did in the 20 years prior to the Prem) unless they pay the cabal fees. Mind you, Tottenham aren't paying the fees as such but they're not a provincial team and are about to move into a 60,000 seater stadium.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and there are more Leicester types in the coming years. Except Swansea.

[chris]

Yeah, all good points. It's certainly more open than other leagues but open to whom? I'm not so sure Sheff Weds, Palace, Leeds, Villa, Forest, Norwich, Everton, West Ham, Southampton, Watford, Ipswich, West Brom, QPR and Derby (or teams of that ilk) would get into the top 4 now (as they did in the 20 years prior to the Prem) unless they pay the cabal fees. Mind you, Tottenham aren't paying the fees as such but they're not a provincial team and are about to move into a 60,000 seater stadium.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and there are more Leicester types in the coming years. Except Swansea.

the premier league goes in cycles the problem is its between the same 3 or 4 clubs . man city, chelsea, man utd and maybe arsenal if they ever decide to spend some money. the rest are making the numbers up, liverpool and spurs have never won the premier league and wont win it anytime soon

[chris]

since the premier league started in 92/93 season only six teams have won it that is in 25 years , that shows how much of a closed shop it really is , blackburn and leicester were both one offs neither side carried on from where they left off.

the rest both man city and chelsea have basically spent millions to achieve a league title which previously eluded them for donkeys years, that only leaves man utd and arsenal both massive clubs who were collecting champions league revenue for years.

[City123]

the top end of the premier league as been a closed shop for years, barring leicester winning it last season, the top four virtually picks itself every season, barring a miracle chelsea have already won it and we are only at the beginning of march

as for the teams coming down and going straight back up again, where are villa and norwich this season ? the championship is a far more open league than the premier league will ever be simply because the top five or six command most of the money especially from sky tv, champions league, gate receipts, sponsorships etc.

In the 24 seasons since the advent of the Premier League there have been 6 different winners, in the 24 years prior, there were 7 different winners. Not a huge difference.

Turns out, the good teams just win more often than the bad ones

This is more applicable to the post you just put up

[chris]

In the 24 seasons since the advent of the Premier League there have been 6 different winners, in the 24 years prior, there were 7 different winners. Not a huge difference.

Turns out, the good teams just win more often than the bad ones

This is more applicable to the post you just put up

go back 25 years before the premier league started and i make it nine winners who have won the first division title.

man utd, everton, liverpool, leeds, arsenal, forest, derby, villa, man city. plus throughout them years it was not the same teams finishing in the top 4 every season, like it is now.

they was one team entering the european cup as it was then just the champions, not the top four as it is now, they was nowhere near the same amount money involved as there is today, its a different ballpark altogether nowadays

[William Treseder]

You have to wonder why the likes of Neymar and Suarez feel the need to dive all the time. They are both brilliant players in their own rights. Is it in their blood, or do they just do it because they know they can get away with it.
Last nights comeback was awesome, but for me it was tainted by the diving antics.

[Ainsley Harriott]

two teams out of brighton, huddersfield, leeds, sheffield wednesday, reading or maybe even fulham are going to join them. none of them sides have been in the premier league for donkeys years , in fact some have never been in the premier league at all

Other than Fulham and Reading...so a third of your list.

[chris]

Other than Fulham and Reading...so a third of your list.

leeds wednesday, fulham, and reading have all been in the premier league but not for years

huddersfield and brighton have never been up there .

[lardy]

Is three years now 'donkeys years'?

[chris]

Is three years now 'donkeys years'?

your just splitting hairs sunshine ok , how long have leeds , sheffield wednesday not been up there then and they are far bigger clubs .

[lardy]

your just splitting hairs sunshine ok , how long have leeds , sheffield wednesday not been up there then and they are far bigger clubs .

Not long enough

[chris]

Not long enough

dont confuse your hatred for leeds by twisting the facts around .

[City123]

go back 25 years before the premier league started and i make it nine winners who have won the first division title.

man utd, everton, liverpool, leeds, arsenal, forest, derby, villa, man city. plus throughout them years it was not the same teams finishing in the top 4 every season, like it is now.

they was one team entering the european cup as it was then just the champions, not the top four as it is now, they was nowhere near the same amount money involved as there is today, its a different ballpark altogether nowadays

The Premier League has been going 24 seasons and there's been 6 winners: Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Leicester and Blackburn

In the 24 seasons prior to that, there were 7 winners: Liverpool (11), Everton (3), Leeds (3), Derby (2), Arsenal (3), Nottingham Forest (1), Aston Villa (1)

[chris]

The Premier League has been going 24 seasons and there's been 6 winners: Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Leicester and Blackburn

In the 24 seasons prior to that, there were 7 winners: Liverpool (11), Everton (3), Leeds (3), Derby (2), Arsenal (3), Nottingham Forest (1), Aston Villa (1)

the premier league as been going 25 years, go back the same amount of time, 67 - 92 . leeds were the last winners of the old first division in 92.

start at 67 when man utd won the title they as been nine winners , i have already listed them for you.

dont tell me the premier league is as open as it was pre - sky tv, because that is utter codswallop

[TH63]

So using CITY123's statistics, in 24 years Liverpool were champions for pretty much half of them.

How exactly is that "open"?

[chris]

So using CITY123's statistics, in 24 years Liverpool were champions for pretty much half of them.

How exactly is that "open"?

how many times have man utd won the premier league ? in a two horse race most of the time ?

when liverpool were winning titles they was more competition around, and they certainly did not have the advantage of champions league money pouring in every season.

i willl give you an example of competiton league champions

67 man utd , 68 man city, 69, leeds, 70, everton , 71, arsenal, 72, derby, 73, liverpool,

seven seasons, seven different winners of the league title - do you think that would happen nowadays in the premier league eh

not a cat in hells chance.