An Independent Wales?

[skunkatron]

Youngsters of today like england more and more. That is a fact.

I've spent more time in england than north, west or east wales.

The only time I hear real anti english hatred is those sad old people that sit at the bar all day every day.

+ Wales would be bankrupt within a month of independence. But I doubt you'd care about that.

https://sovereignwales.com/constitution/ https://sovereignwales.com/declaration/
https://sovereignwales.com/declaration/ This paper work could make this work outside the EU and far from Bankrupt. Same party's to vote just new constitution.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Do you think that the SW part of England (i.e. west of Bath) with a similar size population has any greater say?

The clue to my answer is that you're comparing a part of England with a different country. You're happy with the idea that England rules the roost and if other countries don't like it, they can fck themselves. I don't agree with that.

[G rangetown Blue]

England is 1.8 Trillion pounds in debt, surely Wales could do better than that?

[skunkatron]

https://sovereignwales.com/constitution/ https://sovereignwales.com/declaration/ https://sovereignwales.com/manifesto/
[url] This paper work could make this work outside the EU and far from Bankrupt. Same party's to vote just new constitution.

https://sovereignwales.com/manifesto/ read it I dare you Independent is a posibility for future generations.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

The clue to my answer is that you're comparing a part of England with a different country. You're happy with the idea that England rules the roost and if other countries don't like it, they can fck themselves. I don't agree with that.

Thanks for incorrectly paraphrasing my comments.

[Wales-Bales]

Singapore is a major hub in SE Asia and some sources quote that 40% of the world's trade passes through the Malacca Strait.
It is hugely important in the shipping world. Like Barry I suppose.

Malaysia and Indonesia are just a few miles away, nothing stopping them undercutting Singapore And most of that 40% of world trade is just passing by, not offloading. Singapore's success is in technology, financial services and education, among other things. The major reason it all happened was the appointment of a single minded leader. That and the fact that they had no other choice.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Malaysia and Indonesia are just a few miles away, nothing stopping them undercutting Singapore And most of that 40% of world trade is just passing by, not offloading. Singapore's success is in technology, financial services and education, among other things. The major reason it all happened was the appointment of a single minded leader. That and the fact that they had no other choice.

My work is maritime-related but I thought I would check with Wikipedia regarding the importance of the shipping industry in Singapore.

It reads "Singapore has a highly developed market economy based historically on the entrepot trade."

[Wales-Bales]

My work is maritime-related but I thought I would check with Wikipedia regarding the importance of the shipping industry in Singapore.

It reads "Singapore has a highly developed market economy based historically on the entrepot trade."

Most of that entrepot activity is bringing in raw materials to produce goods for export.

And you must be reading a different history to me because this is the Singapore I am talking about :-

Economy History

Upon independence from Malaysia in 1965, Singapore faced a small domestic market, and high levels of unemployment and poverty. 70 percent of Singapore's households lived in badly overcrowded conditions, and a third of its people squatted in slums on the city fringes. Unemployment averaged 14 percent, GDP per capita was US$516, and half of the population was illiterate.

In response, the Singapore government established the Economic Development Board to spearhead an investment drive, and make Singapore an attractive destination for foreign investment. FDI inflows increased greatly over the following decades, and by 2001 foreign companies accounted for 75% of manufactured output and 85% of manufactured exports. Meanwhile, Singapore's savings and investment rates rose among the highest levels in the world, while household consumption and wage shares of GDP fell among the lowest.

As a result of this investment drive, Singapore's capital stock increased 33 times by 1992, and achieved a tenfold increase in the capital-labor ratio. Living standards steadily rose, with more families moving from a lower-income status to middle-income security with increased household incomes. During a National Day Rally speech in 1987, Lee Kuan-Yew claimed that (based on the home ownership criterion) 80% of Singaporeans could now be considered to be members of the middle-class. However, much unlike the economic policies of Greece and the rest of Europe, Singapore followed a policy of individualising the social safety net. This led to a higher than average savings rate and a very sustainable economy in the long run. Without a burdensome welfare state or its likeliness, Singapore has developed a very self-reliant and skilled workforce well versed for a global economy.

Singapore's economic strategy produced real growth averaging 8.0% from 1960 to 1999. The economy picked up in 1999 after the regional financial crisis, with a growth rate of 5.4%, followed by 9.9% for 2000. However, the economic slowdown in the United States, Japan and the European Union, as well as the worldwide electronics slump, had reduced the estimated economic growth in 2001 to a negative 2.0%.

The economy expanded by 2.2% the following year, and by 1.1% in 2003 when Singapore was affected by the SARS outbreak. Subsequently, a major turnaround occurred in 2004 allowed it to make a significant recovery of 8.3% growth in Singapore, although the actual growth fell short of the target growth for the year more than half with only 2.5%. In 2005, economic growth was 6.4%; and in 2006, 7.9%.

As of 8 June 2013, Singapore's unemployment rate is around 1.9% and the country's economy has a lowered growth rate, with a rate of 1.8% on a quarter-by-quarter basis—compared to 14.8% in 2010.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I did a calculation with the Brexit vote a little while ago, not that the issue is important for the information I was looking for. I discovered that if England had voted 59% for one outcome, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could all have voted 100% for the other outcome and lost. That means that, in a referendum, if England wants something enough, there's nothing the rest of us can do.

I also remember Feedback mentioning once that if you combined the seats won in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, they have never made any difference to the result in a general election.

Democracy.

That's not true. Labour have only won in England twice since the war. Whenever Labour get in, they need to rely on the Welsh and Scottish vote, by in large.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

England is 1.8 Trillion pounds in debt, surely Wales could do better than that?

England isn't, the UK is. We'd have to take our fair share of that debt if we left.

[tommy31]

The fact that, after 500 years of Westminster rules, Wales' economy isn't strong enough is a strong reason FOR independence, rather than against it.

[Rjk]

England isn't, the UK is. We'd have to take our fair share of that debt if we left.

About 90 bn?

[Rjk]

The fact that, after 500 years of Westminster rules, Wales' economy isn't strong enough is a strong reason FOR independence, rather than against it.

Very good point, the way the Welsh economy is set up very little wealth remains in Wales.
Analysis of our road networks show a great similarly to other parts of the world that have been bled dry by a more powerful neighbour.
Westminster spent on Wales in the form of benefits, but that just keeps Wales poor, and much of that money flows out of Wales.
They have never spent enough on transformative projects that would develop the Welsh economy and keep more wealth in Wales. At least the EU did some of that

[G rangetown Blue]

About 90 bn?

So are Scotland going to take circa. 1.5 billion debt with them?

I doubt it.

[Rjk]

So are Scotland going to take circa. 1.5 billion debt with them?

I doubt it.

I make Scotland's share 140 bn

[A Quiet Monkfish]

The English will never allow it. They need Wales and its industrial might, not to mention our water. Also, the capital should be moved to somewhere like Carmarthen, or Blaenau Ffestiniog. Cardiff is way too cosmopolitan..

I was being sarcastic.

[Vimana.]

The fact that, after 500 years of Westminster rules, Wales' economy isn't strong enough is a strong reason FOR independence, rather than against it.

I would love to wholly agree. But I cant see how we would prosper. Our geography is virtually impossible, our transport infrastructure is dreadful - like Scotland perhaps, but unlike Scotland we have very little by way of 21st Century natural resources.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

We could make a bigger deal of our history and heritage and become a tourist destination, that might generate a decent income. There are more castles per square mile in Wales than anywhere in Western Europe.

Sadly, I don't think that Wales have any identity anywhere near as strong as Scotland and Ireland on the world stage. Not that things can't ever change, of course.

[Rjk]

I would love to wholly agree. But I cant see how we would prosper. Our geography is virtually impossible, our transport infrastructure is dreadful - like Scotland perhaps, but unlike Scotland we have very little by way of 21st Century natural resources.

Ireland haven't had much in the way of natural resources and they've been doing ok, if they were still being controlled by Westminster do you think their GDP per capita would have overtaken the UK's?

I mean they like to pretend that peat is a natural resource, and we all kind of go along with that, like when the Beatles put one of Ringo's songs on an album, but deep down everyone knows it's just shit.

[tommy31]

I would love to wholly agree. But I cant see how we would prosper. Our geography is virtually impossible, our transport infrastructure is dreadful - like Scotland perhaps, but unlike Scotland we have very little by way of 21st Century natural resources.

Energy is the 21st century resource, we have the capacity to create so much renewable energy it's mad. An independence wales could, for example, have built the swansea lagoon years ago. Our coastline is so long, there are almost endless possibilities for tidal energy.
We also export hundreds of millions of litres of water. There's serious money to be made from that too.
Transport infrastructure is awful I agree, it needs to be bettered. Currently, the UK government are taking their time to electrify the western line (without even thinking about the valleys line). Birmingham had electric rail lines 100 years ago.

Sadly, I don't think that Wales have any identity anywhere near as strong as Scotland and Ireland on the world stage. Not that things can't ever change, of course.

That's correct. So bad is our image, the film about Gareth Thomas has made him out to be irish! I'd recommend listening to this podcast, it's about the Welsh image in film across the world.

[NYCBlue]

The argument of "Wales would fail if it become independent" never ceases to amaze me seeing as its been failing for years and has been continually let down by UK governments

The fact that the poorest parts of Wales qualify for EU funding is a damning indictment on Westminster's inability to govern anywhere outside the south of England, we deserve better than this and I can't think of anyone better placed to do what's best for the Welsh than the Welsh

This.

[severncity]

https://sovereignwales.com/manifesto/ read it I dare you Independent is a posibility for future generations.

This was written by Gruff Meredith aka MC Mabon. I know him well. He's a true Welsh patriot if a little wild-eyed. I'm thinking of joining his party if Plaid don't get rid of the bully.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

[QUOTE=Wales-Bales;4727015]Most of that entrepot activity is bringing in raw materials to produce goods for export.

So most of the entrepot activity is entrepot activity. Good lord

[Wales-Bales]

Most of that entrepot activity is bringing in raw materials to produce goods for export.

So most of the entrepot activity is entrepot activity. Good lord

You are overlooking the fact that I am using Singapore (similar small population) as an example of a country that sought independence from an economic union with a much larger partner, and against all odds they made a success of their country, even though when they started out they didn't have a lot to piss in. They didn't even have any water or arrable land!

I'm not sure why you keep going on about this maritime bollux, as it's clearly got nothing to do with the chances of success for an independent Wales, if they were to break from the current economic union with a much larger partner

[Taunton Blue Genie]

You are overlooking the fact that I am using Singapore (similar small population) as an example of a country that sought independence from an economic union with a much larger partner, and against all odds they made a success of their country, even though when they started out they didn't have a lot to piss in. They didn't even have any water or arrable land!

I'm not sure why you keep going on about this maritime bollux, as it's clearly got nothing to do with the chances of success for an independent Wales, if they were to break from the current economic union with a much larger partner

We are all God's children