Reply With QuoteAll opinions I know. However Cruyff did not have Pele's longevity nor anything near his scoring record never mind 3 world cup wins spanning 12 years. One of the best European players undoubtedly.Originally Posted by bobh
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Great thread this. Part of the problem I have with what Chris says is that he is comparing Charles with Bale when the latter is only just halfway through his career. Bale will become our all time leading scorer. He was pivotal in the greatest tournament in our history. He has already been part of two Champions League triumphs. He may well go on to become a Madrid great.
All opinions I know. However Cruyff did not have Pele's longevity nor anything near his scoring record never mind 3 world cup wins spanning 12 years. One of the best European players undoubtedly.
It is a good thread, and I have some sympathy with the view that Charles is, and will be, the best player ever for Wales in the context of his ability vs the players of his age. I can remember seeing him introduced at the Millenium Stadium during the Germany friendly match in 2002 and told my then 9 year old son that he had just seen one of the greatest players of all time.
I think Bale is already a Wales great, but he will have to go some to beat the reputation from his contempories that Charles acquired over his career - and that I think is the only way to compare them.
Agreed, Bale has already achieved more playing in better teams. Had Charles played for Real Madrid and the mighty Bluebirds whilst at his peak Chris's argument might have been valid.
You really can't compare Pele's scoring record to anyone else's, 500 of the 1,000+ goals came in friendlies and he was playing in the Brazilian state championships where he was essentially playing against farmers
Nowt wrong with playing against farmers.
We get 6 guaranteed points a season playing against them.
Look at his international scoring record, were they all tractor boys as well? He was the jewel in the crown of the greatest team ever to play football.
Just leaving this here
https://youtu.be/e4fzeK3SQa4
The nearest thing I've ever seen to a one man team winning a major trophy for countries was Argentina in 1986, that's the reason why I've always rated Maradona as the best p,layer I've seen, with Pele a contender for second best (I only really saw him at his best in 1970 and it was easy for such a gifted player to shine in a team like that).
As for John Charles, my old man always used to rave about him and so many players from that era are quick to rate him right up there with the greats, but it was an era where it was virtually a case of the only way you would get to see a great player or team was to go along to a game and watch them, so how much did Brits see of Charles when he was at his peak at Juventus?
It's all about opinions in any "greatest player" debate of course, but it is a matter of fact that John Charles was playing for Cardiff City that was hardly setting the Second Division alight at the age of only thirty one. This strikes me as not the sort of setting you would expect to find a player who is supposed to be among the best who ever played the game in his early thirties - i can only assume that years of being kicked by Italian defenders had taken their toll.
I look at Gareth Bale and see someone who was a major influence on a successful Welsh campaign in the the first major international tournament Finals they had reached since Charles went to Sweden for the 1958 World Cup. On the face of it, Bale made more of an impact than Charles did in a major international tiournament, but I say that as someone who has watched Bale in France 2016 over and over again, whereas it's only possible to see snippets of what Charles did fifty nine years ago, so i suppose it would be unfair to say that Bale was the better of the two - given that I cannot remember watching Charles play live for his country, Bale is the best I've seen playing for Wales.
Last edited by the other bob wilson; 20-03-17 at 05:07.
Thankyou
a top post, and i agree that maradona was the greatest player i have ever seen , his ability, balance, and ball control was staggering , he not only carried argentina in 1986 to a world cup triumph , but went to napoli and transformed them into one of the best teams in italy winning two league titles and a uefa cup when at that time ac milan and juventus were dominating serie A .
Last edited by chris; 20-03-17 at 15:23.
That's the key. Neymar has 50 in 75 in what is probably the worst Brazilian side in many a year, you stick him in there and he'd surpass Pele's record
I'm not saying Pele wasn't a good player, but the fact most of his goals (at club level) at least were against poor opposition as well as the fact many Brazilians consider Garrincha to be the better player means he can't be the "greatest of all time"
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