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Thread: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

  1. #1
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    Clarke, Harman or Corbyn


  2. #2

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    I wonder how the electorate will react to what is effectively an attempted coup through misuse of parliamentary process.
    They probably won't go through with it or it'll fail, but the answer is an immediate General Election if it looks like succeeding during which the public can tell Labour and turncoats from other parties what they think of them trying to subvert democracy.

  3. #3
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    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    The Build-A-Burger™ crowd won't give up without a fight.

  4. #4

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    I wonder how the electorate will react to what is effectively an attempted coup through misuse of parliamentary process.
    They probably won't go through with it or it'll fail, but the answer is an immediate General Election if it looks like succeeding during which the public can tell Labour and turncoats from other parties what they think of them trying to subvert democracy.
    How would it be a misuse of parliamentary process?

  5. #5

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Gosh that's a complicated question.
    The short answer is that no confidence votes are meant to be a way of taking the issue to the people for a general election, not replacing the governing party and its leader with a Prime Minister who's election by the people is unthinkable.

    Neither Kenneth Clarke nor Harriet Harperson could imaginably be elected either to lead their respective parties or as Prime Minister, and could only possibly be Quislings to force through the will of a minority at home and the wishes of a foreign power.

    If a vote of no confidence were successful then the one and only acceptable outcome in these circumstances is a General Election.
    Any attempt to install a ridiculous candidate by a small clique of M.Ps would be nothing more than an attempted coup, and the Sovereign would be likely to refuse to sanction it and call a General Election herself.

    As I said earlier though, I very much doubt that in the event they'd really attempt to go down that line.

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    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Any attempt to install a ridiculous candidate by a small clique of M.Ps would be nothing more than an attempted coup, and the Sovereign would be likely to refuse to sanction it and call a General Election herself.
    They recently tried an attempted coup in the USA, so why not here?

  7. #7
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    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Gosh that's a complicated question.
    The short answer is that no confidence votes are meant to be a way of taking the issue to the people for a general election, not replacing the governing party and its leader with a Prime Minister who's election by the people is unthinkable.

    Neither Kenneth Clarke nor Harriet Harperson could imaginably be elected either to lead their respective parties or as Prime Minister, and could only possibly be Quislings to force through the will of a minority at home and the wishes of a foreign power.

    If a vote of no confidence were successful then the one and only acceptable outcome in these circumstances is a General Election.
    Any attempt to install a ridiculous candidate by a small clique of M.Ps would be nothing more than an attempted coup, and the Sovereign would be likely to refuse to sanction it and call a General Election herself.

    As I said earlier though, I very much doubt that in the event they'd really attempt to go down that line.
    I can't see it working, but the whole idea is to install a temporary government (up to 3 months) that would negotiate an extension of Article 50 to allow for a general election asap. From what you said you should be happy with that.

  8. #8
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    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    They recently tried an attempted coup in the USA, so why not here?
    The coup happened when the Boris Johnson 'No Deal' Clique seized control of the government on the back of some tens of thousands of Tory members' votes.

    That was not 'the will of the people', just the will of a small group of unrepresentative people, and it was not carrying through the referendum result. A deal, a very easy deal was on offer then - if not a Norway or Switzerland or Canada model that half the Leave campaign were advocating at the time.

  9. #9

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Gosh that's a complicated question.
    The short answer is that no confidence votes are meant to be a way of taking the issue to the people for a general election, not replacing the governing party and its leader with a Prime Minister who's election by the people is unthinkable.

    Neither Kenneth Clarke nor Harriet Harperson could imaginably be elected either to lead their respective parties or as Prime Minister, and could only possibly be Quislings to force through the will of a minority at home and the wishes of a foreign power.

    If a vote of no confidence were successful then the one and only acceptable outcome in these circumstances is a General Election.
    Any attempt to install a ridiculous candidate by a small clique of M.Ps would be nothing more than an attempted coup, and the Sovereign would be likely to refuse to sanction it and call a General Election herself.

    As I said earlier though, I very much doubt that in the event they'd really attempt to go down that line.
    Any potential new PM would have to display that they have the confidence of the house so there is no chance of a minority clique forcing anything through. I am not a fan of the FTPA but this is a legitimate function of it.

  10. #10

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    I think this is a last ditch attempt by MP 's who do not want to accept a decesion to leave Europe and in my view poor .

    How Corbyn can wake up in the morning and think he is a unity candidate is insane, he had his chane to show unity with May , its just power for him at any cost.

  11. #11

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I think this is a last ditch attempt by MP 's who do not want to accept a decesion to leave Europe and in my view poor .

    How Corbyn can wake up in the morning and think he is a unity candidate is insane, he had his chane to show unity with May , its just power for him at any cost.
    Hes the leader of the opposition. What was in his role to show unity with May then?

    What unity did the former foreign secretary show with May?

  12. #12

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    its just power for him at any cost.
    Now, which current PM does that apply to?

  13. #13

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Now, which current PM does that apply to?
    At least we know what the clown Boris wants (out )

    Corbyn has got more sides than a rubik's cube , nice chap ,bit naive, lead by idelogial loons , bit Boris like I guess .

    So back to the OP question (hmmm not Corbyn) as he is as divisive as Boris.

    Harman for me if pushed, always wanted the Labour party (to show its alledged inclusiveness) and actually elect a female, guess this is ,the nearest one might get .

    After Harman lets go blue sky /left field in thought,
    and ask Tony to rejoin for an interim.

  14. #14

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I can't see it working, but the whole idea is to install a temporary government (up to 3 months) that would negotiate an extension of Article 50 to allow for a general election asap. From what you said you should be happy with that.


    I wouldn't be happy with it if a Parliament preferred to self destruct than follow a direction from the public which it had asked for .
    However, if that should prove to be the case then a General Election is the only constitutional result. No temporary government is needed or acceptable .

  15. #15

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    On the one hand, we're told this is the biggest peace time crisis the United Kingdom has faced in a century, but then when push comes to shove and there is a greater need for a Government of National Unity than at any time in my lifetime, party politics comes first. Whether it's the likes of Amber Rudd, Matt Hancock and Nicki Morgan putting their own career above the principles they were espousing only weeks ago or the anti no dealers now arguing about who'll be temporary Prime Minister, the politicians involved are complete hypocrites - if the consequences of no deal are as dire as they've been telling us, then they should act in what they see as the national interest.

    If Jeremy Corbyn is genuine in what he says, then what does it matter if he becomes a temporary Prime Minister who calls a General Election within days or weeks? Trouble is, would that General Election be delayed because of "unforeseen problems" which only come to light when he took office? Labour, in particular their leader, have given me the impression that, first and foremost, they see Brexit as opportunity to get into power, so it's understandable in a way for some in other parties to have doubts about him I suppose.

  16. #16

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    On the one hand, we're told this is the biggest peace time crisis the United Kingdom has faced in a century, but then when push comes to shove and there is a greater need for a Government of National Unity than at any time in my lifetime, party politics comes first. Whether it's the likes of Amber Rudd, Matt Hancock and Nicki Morgan putting their own career above the principles they were espousing only weeks ago or the anti no dealers now arguing about who'll be temporary Prime Minister, the politicians involved are complete hypocrites - if the consequences of no deal are as dire as they've been telling us, then they should act in what they see as the national interest.

    If Jeremy Corbyn is genuine in what he says, then what does it matter if he becomes a temporary Prime Minister who calls a General Election within days or weeks? Trouble is, would that General Election be delayed because of "unforeseen problems" which only come to light when he took office? Labour, in particular their leader, have given me the impression that, first and foremost, they see Brexit as opportunity to get into power, so it's understandable in a way for some in other parties to have doubts about him I suppose.
    If you take the words genuine,
    and then add your last para about using Brexit as an opportunity for power , enough is said , about the man .

  17. #17

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Well votes of no confidence generally result in a General Election. No need for any " government of national unity" ( complete misnomer), or for anyone to declare themself to be Prime Minister in the mean time.

    Let's just dissolve Parliament in early September when it reconvenes and have a General Election in mid November, which is the normal period for an election campaign .

    There's a "deal" for you, and I tend to think it's the most likely outcome.

  18. #18

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Well votes of no confidence generally result in a General Election. No need for any " government of national unity" ( complete misnomer), or for anyone to declare themself to be Prime Minister in the mean time.

    Let's just dissolve Parliament in early September when it reconvenes and have a General Election in mid November, which is the normal period for an election campaign .

    There's a "deal" for you, and I tend to think it's the most likely outcome.
    No need in your opinion. You can wish for it to go your way as much as you like but the law is pretty clear that if an alternative government can demonstrate the confidence of the house then there need be no election.

  19. #19

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Well votes of no confidence generally result in a General Election. No need for any " government of national unity" ( complete misnomer), or for anyone to declare themself to be Prime Minister in the mean time.

    Let's just dissolve Parliament in early September when it reconvenes and have a General Election in mid November, which is the normal period for an election campaign .

    There's a "deal" for you, and I tend to think it's the most likely outcome.
    Hmm, is anything scheduled to happen between early September and mid November? Nah can't think of anything important.

  20. #20

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    No need in your opinion. You can wish for it to go your way as much as you like but the law is pretty clear that if an alternative government can demonstrate the confidence of the house then there need be no election.


    Yes, well actually my opinion in such matters is considered quite good Eric, and I would certainly disagree with that in these particular circumstances.

  21. #21

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Hmm, is anything scheduled to happen between early September and mid November? Nah can't think of anything important.


    Quite. I think that's probably the strategy.

  22. #22

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    The interesting thing here is that both sides must gamble their own political future to gain the outcome they want.

  23. #23

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Yes, well actually my opinion in such matters is considered quite good Eric, and I would certainly disagree with that in these particular circumstances.
    We aren't talking about opinions. We are talking about the law.

  24. #24

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    We aren't talking about opinions. We are talking about the law.
    Ah, well you see , it is possible for there to be different opinions about the law. When that happens, people 'litigate' , or argue ,about what the correct interpretation of the law is.
    The people who conduct these arguments are called "lawyers" , and they earn lots of money for doing it - especially when they win.

    If there weren't differing opinions on these matters, we wouldn't need Courts and things would we ? We could all just google "the law", couldn't we ?

  25. #25

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Ah, well you see , it is possible for there to be different opinions about the law. When that happens, people 'litigate' , or argue ,about what the correct interpretation of the law is.
    The people who conduct these arguments are called "lawyers" , and they earn lots of money for doing it - especially when they win.

    If there weren't differing opinions on these matters, we wouldn't need Courts and things would we ? We could all just google "the law", couldn't we ?
    Go and read the fix term parliament act

  26. #26

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Never quite as simple as that Eric, as I said above.

  27. #27

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Never quite as simple as that Eric, as I said above.
    Have you read it?

  28. #28
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    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Go and read the fix term parliament act
    There should be a Fix Parliament Act!

  29. #29

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Have you read it?


    I did read it when it was proposed since you ask. However, you can read things like that in different ways and with different motivations you know . Some people are terribly good at reading laws with a view to challenging parts of them ,and knowing a number of ways to do that successfully .
    You might also consider that there have been several other laws passed during the last 1300 years which might have a bearing , and a thing called " Common Law and Usage" too.
    The law is a twisty old business I'm afraid, Eric, and you shouldn't be too confident about the outcome of legal proceedings based upon thumbing through one act of Parliament .

  30. #30

    Re: Clarke, Harman or Corbyn

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    I did read it when it was proposed since you ask. However, you can read things like that in different ways and with different motivations you know . Some people are terribly good at reading laws with a view to challenging parts of them ,and knowing a number of ways to do that successfully .
    You might also consider that there have been several other laws passed during the last 1300 years which might have a bearing , and a thing called " Common Law and Usage" too.
    The law is a twisty old business I'm afraid, Eric, and you shouldn't be too confident about the outcome of legal proceedings based upon thumbing through one act of Parliament .
    You seem to be awfully confident that you are right?

    Which bit do you think could be challenged?

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