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Thread: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

  1. #76

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by David Vincent View Post
    Bob Wilson, Vimana and a few others on here still seem to need an ideological crutch to help them understand the world. What they can't grasp is that if you think in a way that you think is consistently "left-wing" then you will be supporting things that were previously thought to be "right-wing".

    Let's just think about Muslim women wearing the hijab so that it is relevant to this thread. The traditional left wing view encourages women's suffrage – casting off control by men. But what we used to call the left now supports and encourages women to wear the hijab – they support control by men. They frame it as “women having the a right to choose” - they can choose to be a slave. In reality, they are just turning a blind eye to the enormous social pressure being put on these women by religious men.
    Okay, I surrender, there is no such thing as right and left in politics any more, so I now need to forget all of the life experiences and education I received for the last fifty five or so years of my life that made me into the person I am and fully embrace this new, more enlightened and fairer world that we now live in.

    So, who should I be throwing my support behind? Let's see, there's the liberal elite, progressive, masonic, Bildeberg globalisers who have been there in the background running things for all of my life - they are the real power behind the throne in so many democracies throughout the world it seems. I've probably been voting for these people all of my life, because, apparently, until now, it didn't matter whether you voted left or right, you still ended up with one of these in charge.

    Now I know what's really going on, I don't see me voting for that lot again, so who else can I support? Well, it appears that there is a new coming force, a people's revolt if you like - that sounds promising, who are it's leaders? Seems that all you need to get the masses behind you these days is some or all of the following;-

    Dodgy attitude towards;-
    1. Religion.
    2. Race.
    3. Gender equality.
    4. Gay rights.
    5. Paying tax.
    6. The truth.

    Oh, that's awkward, I know left v right doesn't exist any more and all that, but it's hard to completely abandon those values that I've held for so long, so, as I gradually accustom myself to the fact that I should be voting for the Trump's, Farage's, Wilders', Hofer's and LePen's of this world, while also getting my head around the fact that any awkward and/or embarrassing questions they may face can be easily dealt with by squawking "fake news", is there someone else I can support just for now?

    Seems not, these days it's globalists v populists, that's the only show in town. Incidentally, can anyone tell me why, in these days of no more left and right, the five people I listed in the last paragraph are described as "far right" in so many of the articles I read? I daresay it's those globalist lackeys in the mainstream media spreading fake news and alternate facts again.
    Last edited by the other bob wilson; 21-03-17 at 09:40.

  2. #77

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Okay, I surrender, there is no such thing as right and left in politics any more, so I now need to forget all of the propaganda I received for the last fifty five or so years of my life that made me into the person I am and fully embrace this new, more enlightened and fairer world that we now live in.
    Welcome brother Bob

  3. #78

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Welcome brother Bob

  4. #79

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Actually the first part of your post was going well Bob, you correctly identified the power behind the throne. But you came a bit unstuck with the solution, that we have to choose from what already exists.

  5. #80

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Okay, I surrender, there is no such thing as right and left in politics any more, so I now need to forget all of the life experiences and education I received for the last fifty five or so years of my life that made me into the person I am and fully embrace this new, more enlightened and fairer world that we now live in.

    So, who should I be throwing my support behind? Let's see, there's the liberal elite, progressive, masonic, Bildeberg globalisers who have been there in the background running things for all of my life - they are the real power behind the throne in so many democracies throughout the world it seems. I've probably been voting for these people all of my life, because, apparently, until now, it didn't matter whether you voted left or right, you still ended up with one of these in charge.

    Now I know what's really going on, I don't see me voting for that lot again, so who else can I support? Well, it appears that there is a new coming force, a people's revolt if you like - that sounds promising, who are it's leaders? Seems that all you need to get the masses behind you these days is some or all of the following;-

    Dodgy attitude towards;-
    1. Religion.
    2. Race.
    3. Gender equality.
    4. Gay rights.
    5. Paying tax.
    6. The truth.

    Oh, that's awkward, I know left v right doesn't exist any more and all that, but it's hard to completely abandon those values that I've held for so long, so, as I gradually accustom myself to the fact that I should be voting for the Trump's, Farage's, Wilders', Hofer's and LePen's of this world, while also getting my head around the fact that any awkward and/or embarrassing questions they may face can be easily dealt with by squawking "fake news", is there someone else I can support just for now?

    Seems not, these days it's globalists v populists, that's the only show in town. Incidentally, can anyone tell me why, in these days of no more left and right, the five people I listed in the last paragraph are described as "far right" in so many of the articles I read? I daresay it's those globalist lackeys in the mainstream media spreading fake news and alternate facts again.
    I have often thought about how ridiculous democracy is. The entrepreneurs amongst us who create thousands of jobs and who take major risks have exactly the same voting rights as the people stopped in the street and who wouldn't know one end of a balance sheet to another, let alone the complexities of running a country (and I include myself in that number).
    It's like a owning a factory and all the major decisions being decided by the factory hands, who outnumber the major decision makers at the top end of the company. You only have to witness the vox-pops on the news to see the weakness of the system.
    Let's be honest, most of us are not knowledgeable enough to vote on many major issues that effect the country.

  6. #81
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    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    I have often thought about how ridiculous democracy is. The entrepreneurs amongst us who create thousands of jobs and who take major risks have exactly the same voting rights as the people stopped in the street and who wouldn't know one end of a balance sheet to another, let alone the complexities of running a country (and I include myself in that number).
    It's like a owning a factory and all the major decisions being decided by the factory hands, who outnumber the major decision makers at the top end of the company. You only have to witness the vox-pops on the news to see the weakness of the system.
    Let's be honest, most of us are not knowledgeable enough to vote on many major issues that effect the country.
    And yet, we couldn't be selective in the process, that would be quite the can of worms.
    The system is based on an assumption that the average man & woman is knowledgeable and does actually care about what is going on around them/us.

    Clearly it is has become outmoded and needs an overhaul. (Some believe that it is coming ;)
    What might this overhaul look like, and who may be hauling it over us?

  7. #82

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    I have often thought about how ridiculous democracy is. The entrepreneurs amongst us who create thousands of jobs and who take major risks have exactly the same voting rights as the people stopped in the street and who wouldn't know one end of a balance sheet to another, let alone the complexities of running a country (and I include myself in that number).
    It's like a owning a factory and all the major decisions being decided by the factory hands, who outnumber the major decision makers at the top end of the company. You only have to witness the vox-pops on the news to see the weakness of the system.
    Let's be honest, most of us are not knowledgeable enough to vote on many major issues that effect the country.
    People vote for proposals, they don't actually implement them, and neither do the politicians. These policy ideas are then handed over to experts in the civil service to see if they are doable.

    Unconnected, but chief executives don't usually know the first thing about the widgets in the widget factory, and they don't have to know.

  8. #83

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Okay, I surrender, there is no such thing as right and left in politics any more, so I now need to forget all of the life experiences and education I received for the last fifty five or so years of my life that made me into the person I am and fully embrace this new, more enlightened and fairer world that we now live in.

    So, who should I be throwing my support behind? Let's see, there's the liberal elite, progressive, masonic, Bildeberg globalisers who have been there in the background running things for all of my life - they are the real power behind the throne in so many democracies throughout the world it seems. I've probably been voting for these people all of my life, because, apparently, until now, it didn't matter whether you voted left or right, you still ended up with one of these in charge.

    Now I know what's really going on, I don't see me voting for that lot again, so who else can I support? Well, it appears that there is a new coming force, a people's revolt if you like - that sounds promising, who are it's leaders? Seems that all you need to get the masses behind you these days is some or all of the following;-

    Dodgy attitude towards;-
    1. Religion.
    2. Race.
    3. Gender equality.
    4. Gay rights.
    5. Paying tax.
    6. The truth.

    Oh, that's awkward, I know left v right doesn't exist any more and all that, but it's hard to completely abandon those values that I've held for so long, so, as I gradually accustom myself to the fact that I should be voting for the Trump's, Farage's, Wilders', Hofer's and LePen's of this world, while also getting my head around the fact that any awkward and/or embarrassing questions they may face can be easily dealt with by squawking "fake news", is there someone else I can support just for now?

    Seems not, these days it's globalists v populists, that's the only show in town. Incidentally, can anyone tell me why, in these days of no more left and right, the five people I listed in the last paragraph are described as "far right" in so many of the articles I read? I daresay it's those globalist lackeys in the mainstream media spreading fake news and alternate facts again.
    Let's go through your list :

    1. Religion.

    Le Pen is a traditional French secularist which means that she believes religions (all of them) should not be allowed to influence official policy in France. Secularism encourages social unity and protects freedom of thought and expression.

    Those who oppose her want official policy to be linked to religious values. Because the various religions often have conflicting values this leads to disunity and conflict. This also restricts freedom of thought and expression.

    What is dodgy about Le Pen's secularism?

    2. Race.

    French secularists like Le Pen believe that the state should be blind to race. It used to be illegal to classify someone by race in France, but I don't know if this has changed recently. For example, there is no information about race in a French census. In France everyone is just a French citizen.

    Her opponents encourage identity politics based on race. This leads to racial conflicts and rioting - e.g. Soros paying wages to race protesters in the US.

    What is dodgy about Le Pen's attitude to race?

    3. Gender equality.

    Le Pen is the leader of her party so there's not much to say about her views on gender equality.

    Contrast that to the views of those on so-called left who are encouraging Islamisation where women are second class citizens.

    4. Gay rights.

    Some of the top people in Le Pen's party are gay. The main opponents of Islamisation have often been gay. I'm thinking of people like Pim Fortuyn who wrote "I have no desire to go through the emancipation of women and homosexuals all over again."

    Do you really think gay rights will be protected more by pro-Islamic parties than by people like Wilders and Le Pen? Do you know what the official policy for homosexuality is in most Islamic countries?

    5. Paying tax.

    Le Pen is opposed to globalisation and she will introduce higher taxes on the big international companies. She calls this "intelligent protectionism".

    Most Islamic states have not setup a system of collective wealth based on individuals paying tax because most people are too poor and also because most people there don't really believe in the state. What unites these people is their religion instead of citizenship. For example, in Pakistan only 1 in 200 people pay income tax.

    6. The truth.

    The truth is that there are now three main forces at work in our society and they are the Populists, the globalists and Islam. At the moment the latter two are working together but they will fall out and we will end up living under Islamic rules. The people you call dodgy are the ones who represent old time left wing values - e.g. decent wages for workers, decent housing and health care, protecting the environment. All of these things are being undermined by the uncontrolled immigration forced on us by globalists.
    Last edited by David Vincent; 21-03-17 at 19:02.

  9. #84

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    I have often thought about how ridiculous democracy is. The entrepreneurs amongst us who create thousands of jobs and who take major risks have exactly the same voting rights as the people stopped in the street and who wouldn't know one end of a balance sheet to another, let alone the complexities of running a country (and I include myself in that number).
    It's like a owning a factory and all the major decisions being decided by the factory hands, who outnumber the major decision makers at the top end of the company. You only have to witness the vox-pops on the news to see the weakness of the system.
    Let's be honest, most of us are not knowledgeable enough to vote on many major issues that effect the country.
    The right answer is usually found more often by a lot of stupid people than by a few clever people. The phenomenon is called The Wisdom of Crowds. On this site it is better expressed as The Wisdom of Clowns.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

  10. #85

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Actually the first part of your post was going well Bob, you correctly identified the power behind the throne. But you came a bit unstuck with the solution, that we have to choose from what already exists.
    Well, I hope you're right, because the options around at the moment do not impress me one bit - I've been feeling pretty disenfranchised for a decade or more and things seem to be getting worse.

  11. #86

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by David Vincent View Post
    Let's go through your list :

    1. Religion.

    Le Pen is a traditional French secularist which means that she believes religions (all of them) should not be allowed to influence official policy in France. Secularism encourages social unity and protects freedom of thought and expression.

    Those who oppose her want official policy to be linked to religious values. Because the various religions often have conflicting values this leads to disunity and conflict. This also restricts freedom of thought and expression.

    What is dodgy about Le Pen's secularism?

    2. Race.

    French secularists like Le Pen believe that the state should be blind to race. It used to be illegal to classify someone by race in France, but I don't know if this has changed recently. For example, there is no information about race in a French census. In France everyone is just a French citizen.

    Her opponents encourage identity politics based on race. This leads to racial conflicts and rioting - e.g. Soros paying wages to race protesters in the US.

    What is dodgy about Le Pen's attitude to race?

    3. Gender equality.

    Le Pen is the leader of her party so there's not much to say about her views on gender equality.

    Contrast that to the views of those on so-called left who are encouraging Islamisation where women are second class citizens.

    4. Gay rights.

    Some of the top people in Le Pen's party are gay. The main opponents of Islamisation have often been gay. I'm thinking of people like Pim Fortuyn who wrote "I have no desire to go through the emancipation of women and homosexuals all over again."

    Do you really think gay rights will be protected more by pro-Islamic parties than by people like Wilders and Le Pen? Do you know what the official policy for homosexuality is in most Islamic countries?

    5. Paying tax.

    Le Pen is opposed to globalisation and she will introduce higher taxes on the big international companies. She calls this "intelligent protectionism".

    Most Islamic states have not setup a system of collective wealth based on individuals paying tax because most people are too poor and also because most people there don't really believe in the state. What unites these people is their religion instead of citizenship. For example, in Pakistan only 1 in 200 people pay income tax.

    6. The truth.

    The truth is that there are now three main forces at work in our society and they are the Populists, the globalists and Islam. At the moment the latter two are working together but they will fall out and we will end up living under Islamic rules. The people you call dodgy are the ones who represent old time left wing values - e.g. decent wages for workers, decent housing and health care, protecting the environment. All of these things are being undermined by the uncontrolled immigration forced on us by globalists.
    First, although I appreciate this thread was about Muslims to start with, I only became involved in it when I agreed with a general point made by Vimana. Islam is only a factor in what I'm talking about in that it has some bearing on points one and two I mentioned. therefore most of what you argue from your obsessed anti Islam viewpoint is irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

    Second, if I had said LePen was guilty of all six of the things I listed, then your reply would have been far more convincing. However, what I actually said was that she was one of five people I listed, who are generally accepted to be at the forefront of the current wave of populism, who are guilty of a dodgy attitude to "some or all of the following" - it's interesting by the way that, apart from a fleeting mention of Wilders, LePen was the only one of the five I listed that you choose to defend.

    Third, you've said before that Jeremy Corbyn is much the same as the five I talked of if only he had the sense to realise it - I take it that much the same applies to Bernie Sanders? To you, Messrs Trump and Sanders are peas from the same pod? However, I fail to see how that can be the case when you read an article like this

    http://www.gq.com/story/bernie-sande...interview-moty

    - forget where this story appears and all that guff about mainstream and non mainstream media, read what Sanders is, presumably, happy to have put out into the public domain under his name and tell me that he would be comfortable standing on a Populist ticket as represented by the five, Trump in particular, I list.

    Sanders is one of the few reasons I see for hope in this bleak time and is living proof that it is much too early to write off left v right politics - as I said before, those who peddle that line use it to make themselves feel better about the way they look at the world now.
    Last edited by the other bob wilson; 22-03-17 at 08:16.

  12. #87

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Well, I hope you're right, because the options around at the moment do not impress me one bit - I've been feeling pretty disenfranchised for a decade or more and things seem to be getting worse.
    Really?

    Trump, Clinton, Corbyn, Farage, May, Brexit and many other potentially enjoyable things to come.

    No pleasing some people.

  13. #88

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    People vote for proposals, they don't actually implement them, and neither do the politicians. These policy ideas are then handed over to experts in the civil service to see if they are doable.

    Unconnected, but chief executives don't usually know the first thing about the widgets in the widget factory, and they don't have to know.
    Thanks for stating the obvious. The public voted for Brexit and they elect political parties into power based on the manifesto that appeals to them on whatever level they understand.

  14. #89

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Thanks for stating the obvious. The public voted for Brexit and they elect political parties into power based on the manifesto that appeals to them on whatever level they understand.
    I was just replying to your post, where you more or less stated that only those who can understand a balance sheet should be allowed to vote

  15. #90

    Re: Erdogan to European Muslims: Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I was just replying to your post, where you more or less stated that only those who can understand a balance sheet should be allowed to vote
    I know a number of people who understand balance sheets who shouldn't be allowed to vote

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