Selfish parent forced to take child on holidays during School Holidays

[Mrs Steve R]

The problem is. as soon as schools give in to such demands, the floodgates are well and truly opened. How much effort is required for a teacher to bring a kid up to speed with other kids, having missed two weeks because his parents felt a sense of entitlement to a holiday?

Maybe kids with a 98% or above attendance could be rewarded with some extra days off for a holiday. If my attendance at work was 92%, I'd get a disciplinary. In fact, I had a disciplinary for having 2 periods of 3 days off in an 18 month period.

Yeah, be a good little drone and you might get to spend some time with your parents

[jon1959]

You can book holidays at work, so the point is irrelevant. In a medium sized business with all of us with families all trying to get time off in a 6 week period is too difficult to schedule.

I havent had any term time holidays for the last 3 years, i just have smaller UK based vacations. However i do believe there should be an option there to book a weeks leave from school. At 4 and 7 i'm sure i could cover their work load for a week.

Maybe cut down the 6 weeks holiday to 4 weeks and give each child 2 weeks annual leave.

In a previous life when I was a bus conductor we all had 4 weeks holiday a year in 2 blocks of 2 weeks. Rotas and duties were organised on the basis of the same % of crew on holiday at any point throughout the year. In most cases the 2 weeks fell in school term time, although the following year they would move on a few weeks. When the holiday rotas came out most people with kids were desperately trying to swap their holidays with people without kids. Most failed and either had to take their holidays in term time, or not have a holiday with their kids at all. I think the same system operates now.

You could say those people had an exaggerated sense of entitlement to family holidays? On the other hand they are far more restricted than people in jobs where they can apply for holiday leave at any time (subject to cover and business/service priorities). It was not about chasing lower cost holidays in their case - either in the UK or abroad. There must be other jobs like that too?

However, although I think there should always be space for discretion and exceptional circumstances, I do think rules should be respected and followed as much as possible. Collective provision and responsibility before individual preference. The man in the High Court case was arguing the primacy of parental choice over school rules - not exceptions or costs - and I disagree with him.

[Steve R]

Considering that an average kid may be off school 5% of the year, then adding to potential time off is a bit careless.

Interestingly, he claims schools/the state are interfering with his rights as a parent. I wonder if his employer refuses leave will he take them to court claiming that his rights are being infringed?

Your child belongs to the State, not you.

[WJ99mobile]

I like how the battle is with schools and parents when this should be between government and the travel companies.

Holidays are good for the children and it's not nice that families are forced out of spending decent time with each other.

there needs to be a pragmatic approach to this and span out the holidays as much as possible but it's difficult when everything revolves around Christmas.

[goats]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39504338

"In her judgement, Lady Hale said it would cause unacceptable disruption if parents were able to withdraw children whenever they wanted.
"Unauthorised absences have a disruptive effect, not only on the education of the individual child, but also on the work of other pupils, and of their teachers," she said.
Allowing parents to decide when they took their children away would be a "slap in the face" to parents who kept the rules, said Lady Hale."

It already is a slap in the face. Our kids always go to school, not missed a day so far this school year, but if I want to take them out on a holiday which will be half the price in term time I f in well will....they can do one. The amount of parents I see who keep there kids off all the time because they can't be arsed to take them, or one is ill so don't leave house is unreal. Foreigners feel they can phuck off back to wherever for a nice long month or two and just come back. See it all the time, no fine as got no money. These and the other chavs are the Ines that disrupt schooling more, not the middle of the rd normals who are just struggling to afford a holiday, the Ines who teach there kids at home aswell, where they learn more than in school anyway.....

[goats]

It's more Big Brother shite. Do as you're told, or else.

Exactly, the can do one with the fines....waste it in the usual shite like they do....

[Ainsley Harriott]

Makes me laugh when they issue these fines during June and July. Anyone who has been to school in the last 20 years know that kids do feck all for the last 6 weeks of school.

Not strictly true is it?

In my experience it is. I left Barry Boys 6 years ago, and my younger brothers left last summer.

Once GCSE & A-Level exams are underway in May/June, the Year 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 population dwindles by the day as more & more kids finish their last exam.

By mid-June the place is practically empty. Sometimes certain A-Level teachers will have their Year 12 students in for a certain week in June/July to get a headstart on the Year 13 topics, whereas most other teachers will accept that there's no point in them even turning up unless they're teaching Years 7 & 8.

[Eric Cartman]

I work close to the team that dishes out these fines in my LA. I don't believe the fines work, they legitimise poor behaviour and are so low that people will save an enormous amount even after paying the fine. In our area it seems to be pretty much an automatic fine unless you have a bloody good reason for taking them out. However, schools used to decide entirely on a case by case basis but parents eventually made this impossible. We used to get lots of calls from whinging arseholes telling us the school had turned down their request and trying to state their case (which usually involved bullshit along the lines of 'there is this other family who never turns up, they are allowed on 5 holidays a term and no one fines them'). It was becoming unmanageable for us so I dread to think what it was like for the schools.

As someone pointed out earlier, it does seem to be incompatible with the notion of fines/prosecutions for persistent absence (often families who are fined for holidays have good attendance levels otherwise). It is also at odds with the government/LA attitude to home education, you can currently opt to pull your kid out of school, face little resistance despite offering no evidence that you have a hope in hell of educating them to any decent standard.

The government/LA does however have a duty to protect the most vulnerable children from harm, and that includes ensuring they get a decent education thus giving them greater choice when they become an adult. I am not sure where I stand on the whole state vs parent argument. The most vulnerable kids need intervention of varying levels, is a small amount of inconvenience to everyone else a price worth paying? In my opinion it probably is. I know I am petrified when I hear the phrase 'They are my kids and I can do what I want with them!'

[Barry Shitpeas]

I have sympathy on both sides, I'm taking my kids out of school for three days at the end of term, but I wouldn't just take a week or more off right in the middle of the school year even though they are young.

The sense of entitlement from some parents does make me chuckle though. This woman on the radio earlier was ranting about it being within her human rights to have a foreign holiday. And the line about her kids learning more by having a week in Majorca as if she's taking them on some sort of cultural exchange ffs

[Eric the Half a Bee]

If you don't tell anyone you're going away and phone the school each morning for a week to say your child is ill, the school would be none the wiser.

[itkman]

If you don't tell anyone you're going away and phone the school each morning for a week to say your child is ill, the school would be none the wiser.

Depends how old your kid is.

[surge]

Labour are talking about the importance of each and every child eating one healthy meal a day and proposing ideas about how to fund that, why not allow those parents who wish to take their child out of school pay a charge (less than the difference between a trip in school holidays) in order to help fund that project and further project that help maximise children's time in and after school?

Big potential positives about taking a child out in school-term but how many parents consider whether it's the right time for a child to be elsewhere and how the trip planned can help the child or do the majority of parents using those excuses just want a cheaper holiday?

[bobh]

what about parents who home-school their kids? :homer:

[Eric Cartman]

Depends how old your kid is.

and how brown they normally after being sick for a week

[Heathblue]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39504338

"In her judgement, Lady Hale said it would cause unacceptable disruption if parents were able to withdraw children whenever they wanted.
"Unauthorised absences have a disruptive effect, not only on the education of the individual child, but also on the work of other pupils, and of their teachers," she said.
Allowing parents to decide when they took their children away would be a "slap in the face" to parents who kept the rules, said Lady Hale."

When are they going to fine teachers for withdrawing their services and going on strike, allowing teachers to decide, is just a slap in the face to parents.

[ken smith]

and how brown they normally after being sick for a week

Try and claim they have very severe jaundice.

[Eric Cartman]

When are they going to fine teachers for withdrawing their services and going on strike, allowing teachers to decide, is just a slap in the face to parents.

Well they don't get paid for the day they strike.

Maybe that is the answer, full flexibility for everyone, no fines for parents but teachers can just swap their holiday for term time and get the cheap package deal to Majorca. Don't think parents would be happy with that though.

[Kris]

You can book holidays at work, so the point is irrelevant. In a medium sized business with all of us with families all trying to get time off in a 6 week period is too difficult to schedule.

I havent had any term time holidays for the last 3 years, i just have smaller UK based vacations. However i do believe there should be an option there to book a weeks leave from school. At 4 and 7 i'm sure i could cover their work load for a week.

Maybe cut down the 6 weeks holiday to 4 weeks and give each child 2 weeks annual leave.

The problem with that is that, whilst your child is having 2 weeks of annual leave, the other kids are learning and advancing. It is, as teachers have pointed out to me, a nightmare when you have a couple of kids a few days/weeks behind.

Yes, you can book holidays with work. I had a situation, though, where I was unable to book leave at all from July to mid September. If that happened to the one who brought the court case, would he have taken his employers to court and moaned about infringements to his human rights?

[Kris]

Schools could stagger their holidays.
Instead of a block of 6 weeks they could have everyone off for the same 2 weeks in the summer, then fit in the other 4 weeks wherever they see fit throughout the year. This will ease the supply and demand issue with holidays.

Secondaries and feeder primarys would have to match their dates though obviously.

This was suggested by a teacher mate of mine who says that after 6 weeks off they've forgotten every ****ing thing they've just learned anyway.

Schools staggering their holidays may help, but it's just going to extend the period of "high prices" from the holiday companies. Therefore, there needs to be Government regulation on prices in conjuntion with staggered holidays.

[Dr Lecter]

Try and claim they have very severe jaundice.

Or just adopt some brown kids like Madonna did.

[Kris]

Yeah, be a good little drone and you might get to spend some time with your parents

You make it sound like kids and parents are in school/work 7 days a week and 16 hours a day.

I work 60 hour weeks (plus commutes) and I get plenty of time with my kids. Not sure why others find it so difficult.

[Kris]

Your child belongs to the State, not you.

What next? Fake moon landings? JFK was killed by aliens? John Lennon was shot by Elvis' dead corpse?

[Kris]

In a previous life when I was a bus conductor we all had 4 weeks holiday a year in 2 blocks of 2 weeks. Rotas and duties were organised on the basis of the same % of crew on holiday at any point throughout the year. In most cases the 2 weeks fell in school term time, although the following year they would move on a few weeks. When the holiday rotas came out most people with kids were desperately trying to swap their holidays with people without kids. Most failed and either had to take their holidays in term time, or not have a holiday with their kids at all. I think the same system operates now.

You could say those people had an exaggerated sense of entitlement to family holidays? On the other hand they are far more restricted than people in jobs where they can apply for holiday leave at any time (subject to cover and business/service priorities). It was not about chasing lower cost holidays in their case - either in the UK or abroad. There must be other jobs like that too?

However, although I think there should always be space for discretion and exceptional circumstances, I do think rules should be respected and followed as much as possible. Collective provision and responsibility before individual preference. The man in the High Court case was arguing the primacy of parental choice over school rules - not exceptions or costs - and I disagree with him.

My old man had similar rotas. We had one family holiday during the time I was 8 - 16. We still had a great time, though, and I doubt if there are many families as close as ours (even the ones who get to go on holidays).

[Kris]

It already is a slap in the face. Our kids always go to school, not missed a day so far this school year, but if I want to take them out on a holiday which will be half the price in term time I f in well will....they can do one. The amount of parents I see who keep there kids off all the time because they can't be arsed to take them, or one is ill so don't leave house is unreal. Foreigners feel they can phuck off back to wherever for a nice long month or two and just come back. See it all the time, no fine as got no money. These and the other chavs are the Ines that disrupt schooling more, not the middle of the rd normals who are just struggling to afford a holiday, the Ines who teach there kids at home aswell, where they learn more than in school anyway.....

How have you turned this into a rant about immigration? And what is a Ine? A good test would be to make sure your kids know the difference between there and their before you remove them from education for 2 weeks just so that you can drink Sangria in the sun.

[Kris]

I have sympathy on both sides, I'm taking my kids out of school for three days at the end of term, but I wouldn't just take a week or more off right in the middle of the school year even though they are young.

The sense of entitlement from some parents does make me chuckle though. This woman on the radio earlier was ranting about it being within her human rights to have a foreign holiday. And the line about her kids learning more by having a week in Majorca as if she's taking them on some sort of cultural exchange ffs

Brilliant! Two or three days off at the end of a term, I don't see any problems with that personally. Anything more, and I think there is a risk that your kid will fall behind. And, who knows whether they will have the ability to catch up? Kids are easily demoralised, and sitting in a lesson (as I did after I had Chicken Pox) 2 weeks behind your peers is frustrating.