+ Visit Cardiff FC for Latest News, Transfer Gossip, Fixtures and Match Results
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 91

Thread: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

  1. #1
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Is it finally time for Wales to exert its independence and drag itself from the yoke of Westminster and the monarchy?

    https://freewales.org/independent-wa...osperous-wales

    This presents what appears to be one viable route to achieving that aim.

    Is it even possible to convince the people of Wales that independence is in their own best interest?


  2. #2

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Is it finally time for Wales to exert its independence and drag itself from the yoke of Westminster and the monarchy?

    https://freewales.org/independent-wa...osperous-wales

    This presents what appears to be one viable route to achieving that aim.

    Is it even possible to convince the people of Wales that independence is in their own best interest?

    Unfortunately, I think not.

  3. #3

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    When the strapline - fe godwn ni eto - is used you have to think of the mindset of the website owner. 'We will rise again' was used previously by the FWA - a terrorist organisation.

  4. #4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    I have no economic understanding whatsoever, but I wouldn't be willing to risk the complete ruin that may come our way as we really are a quite poor, small country.

    Maybe we could do an ireland and become a dressed up tax haven. But that ship has sailed.

    I don't think life in the valleys is particularly good. It could be a lot worse. My area is improving by the day.

  5. #5

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    The article at the Colonel's link says that 97% of the money supply is debt. Debt created by private banks via loans. They loan money at interest which they don't have. An unsuspecting public believe they're loaned someone else's money that their bank hold on deposit, they don't. The scam is known as Fractional Reserve Lending. One of the best and most succinct expose on the subject at 60 minutes duration is 97% Owned - Positive Money Cut - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3mfkD6Ky5o

    We'll never, ever, see a documentary such as that on terrestrial TV because the people who run the show don't want us to know what's behind the curtain. Oxfam published a report in January that claimed eight people have the equivalent wealth of the poorest 50% of people alive today. http://www.oxfam.org.uk/media-centre...half-the-world

  6. #6

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    The article at the Colonel's link says that 97% of the money supply is debt. Debt created by private banks via loans. They loan money at interest which they don't have. An unsuspecting public believe they're loaned someone else's money that their bank hold on deposit, they don't. The scam is known as Fractional Reserve Lending. One of the best and most succinct expose on the subject at 60 minutes duration is 97% Owned - Positive Money Cut - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3mfkD6Ky5o

    We'll never, ever, see a documentary such as that on terrestrial TV because the people who run the show don't want us to know what's behind the curtain. Oxfam published a report in January that claimed eight people have the equivalent wealth of the poorest 50% of people alive today. http://www.oxfam.org.uk/media-centre...half-the-world
    Bollocks

  7. #7
    International TH63's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Thornhill
    Posts
    13,080

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    I got to this bit, laughed and stopped reading.

    "Like county councils, the Welsh government is prohibited from stemming this outflow by EU and UK laws, such as the misnamed ‘best-value’ procurement regulations. They require contracts to be awarded to foreign firms that can under-bid local companies due to their scale and ability to leverage debt."

    Complete and utter bollocks, and if they can get that wrong, or deliberately attempt to mislead the reader, then the rest of the article is likely to be similarly flawed or deliberately misleading. Either way, it cannot be taken seriously.

  8. #8

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    I got to this bit, laughed and stopped reading.

    "Like county councils, the Welsh government is prohibited from stemming this outflow by EU and UK laws, such as the misnamed ‘best-value’ procurement regulations. They require contracts to be awarded to foreign firms that can under-bid local companies due to their scale and ability to leverage debt."

    Complete and utter bollocks, and if they can get that wrong, or deliberately attempt to mislead the reader, then the rest of the article is likely to be similarly flawed or deliberately misleading. Either way, it cannot be taken seriously.
    Was interested in what you think about other countries subsidizing key companies (e.g. Arriva Trains) to allow them to 'compete' in our markets where we don't have anything so focused here?

  9. #9
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

    This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

    People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

    Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

    If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.

  10. #10

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

    This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

    People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

    Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

    If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.
    Interesting argument. Can Britain survive without Europe? Yes, but as well as it has so far? Nope. Not a chance (in my view anyway).

    Unfortunately, having a dig at people for not believing the mantra you provide does nothing to help your cause.

  11. #11
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Interesting argument. Can Britain survive without Europe? Yes, but as well as it has so far? Nope. Not a chance (in my view anyway).

    Unfortunately, having a dig at people for not believing the mantra you provide does nothing to help your cause.
    Another indication that the people of Wales are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome is that they take it as a "dig" when you point it out.

  12. #12

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Another indication that the people of Wales are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome is that they take it as a "dig" when you point it out.
    What would you call it?

  13. #13

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.
    Care to elaborate?

  14. #14
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    What would you call it?
    The truth.

    It always seems to me that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought up, people are quick to look for reasons why it wouldn't work rather than look to why it would.

  15. #15

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    The truth.

    It always seems to me that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought up, people are quick to look for reasons why it wouldn't work rather than look to why it would.
    Yes, but having a go at people for having that opinion is not going to be successful in changing their minds.

  16. #16
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    I have to say Eric, your comments so far in this thread go some way to verifying the first paragraph of my post in which I refer to nitpicking.

  17. #17
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Yes, but having a go at people for having that opinion is not going to be successful in changing their minds.
    Again, you see it as a "dig" or "having a go", sometimes people need to hear something they might not necessarily like to hear.

    Since we're nitpicking, which part specifically do you see as "having a go"?

  18. #18

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    I have to say Eric, your comments so far in this thread go some way to verifying the first paragraph of my post in which I refer to nitpicking.
    It's a shame you couldn't answer my simple question.

  19. #19
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    It's a shame you couldn't answer my simple question.
    Well I could, Eric, I just wonder if I'd be wasting my time and you'd find something else to nitpick.

  20. #20

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Yes, but having a go at people for having that opinion is not going to be successful in changing their minds.
    which is a issue most nationalists have, they either try and bully the opinion over or they ridicule the others

    neither tend to work that well and thus the nationalist always struggle

  21. #21

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Again, you see it as a "dig" or "having a go", sometimes people need to hear something they might not necessarily like to hear.

    Since we're nitpicking, which part specifically do you see as "having a go"?
    Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

    how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking

  22. #22

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well I could, Eric, I just wonder if I'd be wasting my time and you'd find something else to nitpick.
    Go on then. Give me something I couldn't nitpick. Or shut up.

  23. #23
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    which is a issue most nationalists have, they either try and bully the opinion over or they ridicule the others

    neither tend to work that well and thus the nationalist always struggle
    Oh, it's "bullying" now. Jesus Christ.

  24. #24
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

    how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking
    Which part is untrue?

  25. #25

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    which is a issue most nationalists have, they either try and bully the opinion over or they ridicule the others

    neither tend to work that well and thus the nationalist always struggle
    Not just nationalists. It's becoming politics in general.

  26. #26
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Go on then. Give me something I couldn't nitpick. Or shut up.
    Eric, there's nothing you couldn't nitpick.

  27. #27

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Which part is untrue?
    So, to try and get people on side you describe them as scared and contrary. Nice way to go.

  28. #28
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    So, to try and get people on side you describe them as scared and contrary. Nice way to go.
    Again, which part is untrue? Like I said, sometimes people need to hear something they might not necessarily like to hear.

  29. #29

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Not just nationalists. It's becoming politics in general.
    very true, though i have always thought that nationalists have always struggled with it

  30. #30

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Eric, there's nothing you couldn't nitpick.
    Let's get back to the question. That's the most important thing. "We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed." I've asked for elaboration.

  31. #31
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Let's get back to the question. That's the most important thing. "We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed." I've asked for elaboration.
    Well let's start with which part you doubt and work from there.

  32. #32

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Again, which part is untrue? Like I said, sometimes people need to hear something they might not necessarily like to hear.
    So telling people something they might not want to hear is a good way of putting over an argument? Er, no. Tell someone something they don't want to hear and they switch off.

  33. #33

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well let's start with which part you doubt and work from there.
    I doubt all of it. You've provided a statement and I would like you to confirm and prove it to be correct.

  34. #34
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    So telling people something they might not want to hear is a good way of putting over an argument? Er, no. Tell someone something they don't want to hear and they switch off.
    OK, well if that was your point... thanks for the advice then I suppose

  35. #35

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

    This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

    People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

    Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

    If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.
    I'm sorry but that is impossibly naïve as a view. Money dictates everything and we have no control over that here at all. Whether that is fair or not it is the truth now as a result of centuries of neglect. The other truth is that we're not on the way to anywhere - we're at the end of the route and no-one needs to come here as everything we can offer is offered cheaper or better somewhere else.

    The ONLY things we have to offer are space, water, energy, good food, security, a potentially good quality of life, and the rule of law. These are all powerful things but unfortunately England, and London in particular, are more appealing in offering these to people from outside the UK.

    To put this into perspective STUTTGART as a city is spending €20BN turning its train station through 90 degrees to make sure it is on a through TGV route rather than at the end of a line - connections are that important to their economy.

    If you didn't already live here why would you come? More importantly, what could we sell you that you can't buy cheaper elsewhere?

    I think the lack of self-belief here is simply realism that we've been screwed and there is little hope of a way back as an independent nation. On the contrary, I think there is a rising realisation that the UK can't continue to put all its eggs in the London basket and provided we remain part of the UK I think we will remain included in the move towards offering the quality of life that is missing in London. Many major institutions are moving workers out of London to reduce costs and take advantage of the fact that most new business in the digital domain does not rely on geographic location quite so heavily. In fact, if Scotland leaves, we might even get favourable treatment to try and persuade us to stay.

    I think we have hope here, but as a nation of 3M people we'd be swallowed up if we tried to go it alone at the moment in my view. You clearly have a very different view but I'd be interested to know why you think we could compete in the world as an independent country based on facts not hope.

  36. #36
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I doubt all of it. You've provided a statement and I would like you to confirm and prove it to be correct.
    Well I'll be damned if I'm going to type out an essay for you, just for you to take sentence out of it and nitpick it.

    Lets see how we get on with the first point in my statement regarding the repression of the Welsh language (which I suspect you must already know about but are just looking for something to nitpick)

    Here's a link that sums up a shameful part of history that should never be forgotten: The punishment of The Welsh Not - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s...ducation.shtml

    Once you've read that, please feel free to come back and nitpick it in some way.

  37. #37

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    OK, well if that was your point... thanks for the advice then I suppose
    It was entirely the point. I never used to be an advocate of Welsh Independence until the Brexit result, but that has refocused the way I see Wales' place in a Britain that might be without Scotland and Northern Ireland. I don't agree with some of the argument you posted - for example the Welsh language being squashed out of existence. Much of the reason for the rapid decline in Welsh usage was due to immigration into Wales, the sheer volume of English (non-Welsh) speakers arriving into South Wales was always going to be detrimental to the language in the same way that Welsh emigrants living in Patagonia took over and all speak Welsh there.

  38. #38

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well I'll be damned if I'm going to type out an essay for you, just for you to take sentence out of it and nitpick it.

    Lets see how we get on with the first point in my statement regarding the repression of the Welsh language (which I suspect you must already know about but are just looking for something to nitpick)

    Here's a link that sums up a shameful part of history that should never be forgotten: The punishment of The Welsh Not - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s...ducation.shtml

    Once you've read that, please feel free to come back and nitpick it in some way.
    Already replied. "according to historian John Davies, it is unlikely that the use of the Welsh Not was as widespread as the mythology of the 20th century maintains."

  39. #39
    International Colonel Cærdiffi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Land of North
    Posts
    26,733
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I'm sorry but that is impossibly naïve as a view. Money dictates everything and we have no control over that here at all. Whether that is fair or not it is the truth now as a result of centuries of neglect. The other truth is that we're not on the way to anywhere - we're at the end of the route and no-one needs to come here as everything we can offer is offered cheaper or better somewhere else.

    The ONLY things we have to offer are space, water, energy, good food, security, a potentially good quality of life, and the rule of law. These are all powerful things but unfortunately England, and London in particular, are more appealing in offering these to people from outside the UK.

    To put this into perspective STUTTGART as a city is spending €20BN turning its train station through 90 degrees to make sure it is on a through TGV route rather than at the end of a line - connections are that important to their economy.

    If you didn't already live here why would you come? More importantly, what could we sell you that you can't buy cheaper elsewhere?

    I think the lack of self-belief here is simply realism that we've been screwed and there is little hope of a way back as an independent nation. On the contrary, I think there is a rising realisation that the UK can't continue to put all its eggs in the London basket and provided we remain part of the UK I think we will remain included in the move towards offering the quality of life that is missing in London. Many major institutions are moving workers out of London to reduce costs and take advantage of the fact that most new business in the digital domain does not rely on geographic location quite so heavily. In fact, if Scotland leaves, we might even get favourable treatment to try and persuade us to stay.

    I think we have hope here, but as a nation of 3M people we'd be swallowed up if we tried to go it alone at the moment in my view. You clearly have a very different view but I'd be interested to know why you think we could compete in the world as an independent country based on facts not hope.
    Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

    How will we ever know what we can achieve as a nation if we never pull ourselves together and leap from the frying pan?

    As I said in the post you replied to, we always look for reasons why it wouldn't work, can't we, just once, look for reasons why it could.

  40. #40

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

    How will we ever know what we can achieve as a nation if we never pull ourselves together and leap from the frying pan?

    As I said in the post you replied to, we always look for reasons why it wouldn't work, can't we, just once, look for reasons why it could.
    I agree with your viewpoint about looking for reasons why it would work - I've pointed out advantages that I think we have, and also why I think we're trumped by England in almost all respects for people looking to come North if we decide to become independent.

    I've spent a significant portion of my life working with Europeans and I think we have an amazing country, but we can't cut ourselves off from the rest of the world if we become independent so we have to look at what we can offer than no-one else can.

    My best suggestion to becoming self-sustaining is to become a really expensive, high end destination where we limit numbers coming into the country to maintain quality of the experience for those here. Unfortunately that would mean most of us could not afford to live here and I'd prefer to stay.

    What's your suggestion as to how we could make this work? India has tied up the cheap Maths/IT end of things, I'm not sure what else we can offer that we could export...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •