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Thread: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

  1. #31

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Let's get back to the question. That's the most important thing. "We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed." I've asked for elaboration.
    Well let's start with which part you doubt and work from there.

  2. #32

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Again, which part is untrue? Like I said, sometimes people need to hear something they might not necessarily like to hear.
    So telling people something they might not want to hear is a good way of putting over an argument? Er, no. Tell someone something they don't want to hear and they switch off.

  3. #33

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well let's start with which part you doubt and work from there.
    I doubt all of it. You've provided a statement and I would like you to confirm and prove it to be correct.

  4. #34

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    So telling people something they might not want to hear is a good way of putting over an argument? Er, no. Tell someone something they don't want to hear and they switch off.
    OK, well if that was your point... thanks for the advice then I suppose

  5. #35

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    It's weird that whenever the subject of Welsh independence is brought forward, how many Welsh people will become impossibly contrary, nitpicking whatever detail they can find to justify to themselves why they should dismiss wholesale the notion of independence.

    This nation once fought fierce and proud against its invaders but now, after hundreds of years of being treated like a poor relative in a backwater, we've become so accustomed to subjugation that the prospect of going it alone is too much to even contemplate, like a nationwide collective Stockholm Syndrome.

    People are quick to say "Wales could NEVER prosper on its own", as if it's ever prospered under England or ever had the chance to try. We've had our language squashed nearly out of existence, our culture sidelined, stolen from, and repressed.

    Now even our own people have been conditioned to believe they are not worthy of controlling their own destiny. Wales could be doing so much better for itself, but we'll never find that out as long as everyone is too scared to poke their heads above the parapet.

    If Britain can survive without Europe, then Wales can survive without Britain.
    I'm sorry but that is impossibly naïve as a view. Money dictates everything and we have no control over that here at all. Whether that is fair or not it is the truth now as a result of centuries of neglect. The other truth is that we're not on the way to anywhere - we're at the end of the route and no-one needs to come here as everything we can offer is offered cheaper or better somewhere else.

    The ONLY things we have to offer are space, water, energy, good food, security, a potentially good quality of life, and the rule of law. These are all powerful things but unfortunately England, and London in particular, are more appealing in offering these to people from outside the UK.

    To put this into perspective STUTTGART as a city is spending €20BN turning its train station through 90 degrees to make sure it is on a through TGV route rather than at the end of a line - connections are that important to their economy.

    If you didn't already live here why would you come? More importantly, what could we sell you that you can't buy cheaper elsewhere?

    I think the lack of self-belief here is simply realism that we've been screwed and there is little hope of a way back as an independent nation. On the contrary, I think there is a rising realisation that the UK can't continue to put all its eggs in the London basket and provided we remain part of the UK I think we will remain included in the move towards offering the quality of life that is missing in London. Many major institutions are moving workers out of London to reduce costs and take advantage of the fact that most new business in the digital domain does not rely on geographic location quite so heavily. In fact, if Scotland leaves, we might even get favourable treatment to try and persuade us to stay.

    I think we have hope here, but as a nation of 3M people we'd be swallowed up if we tried to go it alone at the moment in my view. You clearly have a very different view but I'd be interested to know why you think we could compete in the world as an independent country based on facts not hope.

  6. #36

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I doubt all of it. You've provided a statement and I would like you to confirm and prove it to be correct.
    Well I'll be damned if I'm going to type out an essay for you, just for you to take sentence out of it and nitpick it.

    Lets see how we get on with the first point in my statement regarding the repression of the Welsh language (which I suspect you must already know about but are just looking for something to nitpick)

    Here's a link that sums up a shameful part of history that should never be forgotten: The punishment of The Welsh Not - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s...ducation.shtml

    Once you've read that, please feel free to come back and nitpick it in some way.

  7. #37

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    OK, well if that was your point... thanks for the advice then I suppose
    It was entirely the point. I never used to be an advocate of Welsh Independence until the Brexit result, but that has refocused the way I see Wales' place in a Britain that might be without Scotland and Northern Ireland. I don't agree with some of the argument you posted - for example the Welsh language being squashed out of existence. Much of the reason for the rapid decline in Welsh usage was due to immigration into Wales, the sheer volume of English (non-Welsh) speakers arriving into South Wales was always going to be detrimental to the language in the same way that Welsh emigrants living in Patagonia took over and all speak Welsh there.

  8. #38

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well I'll be damned if I'm going to type out an essay for you, just for you to take sentence out of it and nitpick it.

    Lets see how we get on with the first point in my statement regarding the repression of the Welsh language (which I suspect you must already know about but are just looking for something to nitpick)

    Here's a link that sums up a shameful part of history that should never be forgotten: The punishment of The Welsh Not - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s...ducation.shtml

    Once you've read that, please feel free to come back and nitpick it in some way.
    Already replied. "according to historian John Davies, it is unlikely that the use of the Welsh Not was as widespread as the mythology of the 20th century maintains."

  9. #39

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I'm sorry but that is impossibly naïve as a view. Money dictates everything and we have no control over that here at all. Whether that is fair or not it is the truth now as a result of centuries of neglect. The other truth is that we're not on the way to anywhere - we're at the end of the route and no-one needs to come here as everything we can offer is offered cheaper or better somewhere else.

    The ONLY things we have to offer are space, water, energy, good food, security, a potentially good quality of life, and the rule of law. These are all powerful things but unfortunately England, and London in particular, are more appealing in offering these to people from outside the UK.

    To put this into perspective STUTTGART as a city is spending €20BN turning its train station through 90 degrees to make sure it is on a through TGV route rather than at the end of a line - connections are that important to their economy.

    If you didn't already live here why would you come? More importantly, what could we sell you that you can't buy cheaper elsewhere?

    I think the lack of self-belief here is simply realism that we've been screwed and there is little hope of a way back as an independent nation. On the contrary, I think there is a rising realisation that the UK can't continue to put all its eggs in the London basket and provided we remain part of the UK I think we will remain included in the move towards offering the quality of life that is missing in London. Many major institutions are moving workers out of London to reduce costs and take advantage of the fact that most new business in the digital domain does not rely on geographic location quite so heavily. In fact, if Scotland leaves, we might even get favourable treatment to try and persuade us to stay.

    I think we have hope here, but as a nation of 3M people we'd be swallowed up if we tried to go it alone at the moment in my view. You clearly have a very different view but I'd be interested to know why you think we could compete in the world as an independent country based on facts not hope.
    Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

    How will we ever know what we can achieve as a nation if we never pull ourselves together and leap from the frying pan?

    As I said in the post you replied to, we always look for reasons why it wouldn't work, can't we, just once, look for reasons why it could.

  10. #40

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

    How will we ever know what we can achieve as a nation if we never pull ourselves together and leap from the frying pan?

    As I said in the post you replied to, we always look for reasons why it wouldn't work, can't we, just once, look for reasons why it could.
    I agree with your viewpoint about looking for reasons why it would work - I've pointed out advantages that I think we have, and also why I think we're trumped by England in almost all respects for people looking to come North if we decide to become independent.

    I've spent a significant portion of my life working with Europeans and I think we have an amazing country, but we can't cut ourselves off from the rest of the world if we become independent so we have to look at what we can offer than no-one else can.

    My best suggestion to becoming self-sustaining is to become a really expensive, high end destination where we limit numbers coming into the country to maintain quality of the experience for those here. Unfortunately that would mean most of us could not afford to live here and I'd prefer to stay.

    What's your suggestion as to how we could make this work? India has tied up the cheap Maths/IT end of things, I'm not sure what else we can offer that we could export...

  11. #41

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Already replied. "according to historian John Davies, it is unlikely that the use of the Welsh Not was as widespread as the mythology of the 20th century maintains."
    Well at least you can see that it was used.

    Welsh was also removed by law as a language of administration by Henry the 8th so the people of Wales were forced to use English if they wanted to get anything done.

    If these are not examples of the repression of the Welsh language then I don't know what to tell you.

  12. #42

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    It was entirely the point. I never used to be an advocate of Welsh Independence until the Brexit result, but that has refocused the way I see Wales' place in a Britain that might be without Scotland and Northern Ireland. I don't agree with some of the argument you posted - for example the Welsh language being squashed out of existence. Much of the reason for the rapid decline in Welsh usage was due to immigration into Wales, the sheer volume of English (non-Welsh) speakers arriving into South Wales was always going to be detrimental to the language in the same way that Welsh emigrants living in Patagonia took over and all speak Welsh there.
    Sure, there are a number of reasons why a language might decline, in the instance of Welsh, repression by the authorities was one of them.

  13. #43

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Because the other option is to just continue as we are; a sickly nation, an afterthought to those in power, collecting the scraps.

    .
    this sums up the other sign of the nationalist, the glass 1/2 empty syndrome, always blaming every problem on someone else

    I used to be a nationalist, always voted Plaid, then i moved away from Wales and realised, the English dont really hate the Welsh, they dont see them as the poor relative, The Welsh have a " poor old us, we are always hard done by " mentality , that is the issue that needs to be changed then maybe independence will follow

  14. #44

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well at least you can see that it was used.

    Welsh was also removed by law as a language of administration by Henry the 8th so the people of Wales were forced to use English if they wanted to get anything done.

    If these are not examples of the repression of the Welsh language then I don't know what to tell you.
    almost 500 years of repression by the evil English empire

  15. #45

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I agree with your viewpoint about looking for reasons why it would work - I've pointed out advantages that I think we have, and also why I think we're trumped by England in almost all respects for people looking to come North if we decide to become independent.

    I've spent a significant portion of my life working with Europeans and I think we have an amazing country, but we can't cut ourselves off from the rest of the world if we become independent so we have to look at what we can offer than no-one else can.

    My best suggestion to becoming self-sustaining is to become a really expensive, high end destination where we limit numbers coming into the country to maintain quality of the experience for those here. Unfortunately that would mean most of us could not afford to live here and I'd prefer to stay.

    What's your suggestion as to how we could make this work? India has tied up the cheap Maths/IT end of things, I'm not sure what else we can offer that we could export...
    I would be hoping for a government that would nationalise energy, transport, communications, (not fully nationalise but maybe in the way Welsh Water or Cardiff Airport are run), investment in infrastructure, get our own businesses to supply and build our roads, rail, buildings etc

    Make sure that if someone is capable of working, give them something to do, care for others, improve your community.

    Give our youth something meaningful to do with their time rather than wandering the streets at night, looking to entertain themselves with mischief.

    Invest in education and the sciences, look to the future even if it means borrowing now.

    Instil a sentiment of self-belief, pride and self-esteem in people, get people to care for their surroundings and their communities.

    I would even legalise drugs in the same way Portugal has successfully done it. Look at it as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.

    Make a bigger deal of our culture and history, encourage tourism. Get our film industry up and running. There's all kinds of things we could be doing as a nation if we got stuck into it rather than continue in this eternal malaise.

  16. #46

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    The Welsh have a " poor old us, we are always hard done by " mentality
    Oooohhh, careful with the bullying now.

  17. #47

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    almost 500 years of repression by the evil English empire

  18. #48

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Is it finally time for Wales to exert its independence and drag itself from the yoke of Westminster and the monarchy?

    https://freewales.org/independent-wa...osperous-wales

    This presents what appears to be one viable route to achieving that aim.

    Is it even possible to convince the people of Wales that independence is in their own best interest?

    Where its Capitol City cannot cope with a 40,000 crowd in the city centre!!!, I went into town this afternoon/evening, queen street shut, central, backdoor exit only, 1,000's wandering around gorping into a bag of chips, Independent and prosperous Wales it's your best joke of the last 5 years colonel

  19. #49

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelsonca61 View Post
    Where its Capitol City cannot cope with a 40,000 crowd in the city centre!!!, I went into town this afternoon/evening, queen street shut, central, backdoor exit only, 1,000's wandering around gorping into a bag of chips, Independent and prosperous Wales it's your best joke of the last 5 years colonel
    You do realise you've just given examples of why things are shit now and I'm arguing for changes to this system?

  20. #50
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    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    Was interested in what you think about other countries subsidizing key companies (e.g. Arriva Trains) to allow them to 'compete' in our markets where we don't have anything so focused here?
    That's a different argument. The EU regulations only apply after a certain value so Welsh SME's should have the ability to compete for low level public contracts. Larger value contracts, which are subject to open competition should not be based on solely the cheapest bidder, but taking into account other relevant criteria. Besides, there is a very limited number of potential Welsh bidders for certain goods and services.
    Arrival is a complete disaster imho, but much of the blame for that should lie at the door of the very organisation you would like to hand more power to.

  21. #51

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    I'm not convinced by the arguements for independence but I'd love to see it debated more.
    Currently writing this on an early morning job in Ebbw Vale, the road leading up
    Here is sadly something resembling the 19th century and post Brexit I can't see any additional funding for an already deprived area. Maybe in time Wales could do an Ireland ?
    One thing I can't understand, although at moment I'm against independence ( for now ) I can't believe the amount of sneering I see on social media from
    Welsh people at Nicola Sturgeon, I can't fault her for raising the debate and to see Welsh people mock her in such a way is beyond pathetic.
    If the Labour Party had a leader like her we'd have a decent opposition.

  22. #52

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    this sums up the other sign of the nationalist, the glass 1/2 empty syndrome, always blaming every problem on someone else

    I used to be a nationalist, always voted Plaid, then i moved away from Wales and realised, the English dont really hate the Welsh, they dont see them as the poor relative, The Welsh have a " poor old us, we are always hard done by " mentality , that is the issue that needs to be changed then maybe independence will follow
    Will be unpalatable to some but true.Independence though-no thanks!!

  23. #53
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    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well I'll be damned if I'm going to type out an essay for you, just for you to take sentence out of it and nitpick it.

    Lets see how we get on with the first point in my statement regarding the repression of the Welsh language (which I suspect you must already know about but are just looking for something to nitpick)

    Here's a link that sums up a shameful part of history that should never be forgotten: The punishment of The Welsh Not - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s...ducation.shtml

    Once you've read that, please feel free to come back and nitpick it in some way.
    I think you will find that the prevailing thinking of the Welsh middle classes in the 19th century that to succeed in the empire you needed to speak english. It's no difference to the frenchification of brussels at the same time

  24. #54
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    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    Well at least you can see that it was used.

    Welsh was also removed by law as a language of administration by Henry the 8th so the people of Wales were forced to use English if they wanted to get anything done.

    If these are not examples of the repression of the Welsh language then I don't know what to tell you.
    Misguided. The act of union gave welsh people the same rights in law as englishmen.

  25. #55
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    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    I would be hoping for a government that would nationalise energy, transport, communications, (not fully nationalise but maybe in the way Welsh Water or Cardiff Airport are run), investment in infrastructure, get our own businesses to supply and build our roads, rail, buildings etc

    Make sure that if someone is capable of working, give them something to do, care for others, improve your community.

    Give our youth something meaningful to do with their time rather than wandering the streets at night, looking to entertain themselves with mischief.

    Invest in education and the sciences, look to the future even if it means borrowing now.

    Instil a sentiment of self-belief, pride and self-esteem in people, get people to care for their surroundings and their communities.

    I would even legalise drugs in the same way Portugal has successfully done it. Look at it as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.

    Make a bigger deal of our culture and history, encourage tourism. Get our film industry up and running. There's all kinds of things we could be doing as a nation if we got stuck into it rather than continue in this eternal malaise.
    Where is the money coming from to develop this socialist nirvana?

  26. #56

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi View Post
    I would be hoping for a government that would nationalise energy, transport, communications, (not fully nationalise but maybe in the way Welsh Water or Cardiff Airport are run), investment in infrastructure, get our own businesses to supply and build our roads, rail, buildings etc

    Make sure that if someone is capable of working, give them something to do, care for others, improve your community.

    Give our youth something meaningful to do with their time rather than wandering the streets at night, looking to entertain themselves with mischief.

    Invest in education and the sciences, look to the future even if it means borrowing now.


    Instil a sentiment of self-belief, pride and self-esteem in people, get people to care for their surroundings and their communities.

    I would even legalise drugs in the same way Portugal has successfully done it. Look at it as a public health issue rather than a criminal one.

    Make a bigger deal of our culture and history, encourage tourism. Get our film industry up and running. There's all kinds of things we could be doing as a nation if we got stuck into it rather than continue in this eternal malaise.
    Wales does not need to be independent to do most of them, the pride thing is interesting, even though most Welsh are proud of being Welsh, lets face it, we are a great nation, as i have pointed out, some in Wales love the " hard done by " mentality

  27. #57

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Wales does not need to be independent to do most of them, the pride thing is interesting, even though most Welsh are proud of being Welsh, lets face it, we are a great nation, as i have pointed out, some in Wales love the " hard done by " mentality
    National pride and patriotism is fundamentally a religion and a selective identity we give ourselves to make us feel better. If you think we're a great nation it's cos you want to feel good about yourself, and so that can be used to fool ourselves that things are fine as they are.

    Maybe you get this idea that there is a 'hard done by' mentality cos others might not be so patriotic?

    Paradoxically, national pride is irrelevant in this instance since it's more about ideas and having the savvy to implement them and better organise our arbitrary area. Other arbitrary areas do this regardless of size.

  28. #58

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    Where is the money coming from to develop this socialist nirvana?
    Certainly can't be by putting taxes up can it.

  29. #59

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Certainly can't be by putting taxes up can it.
    Why not? We'll have a left wing Government here in Wales if we were to go independent. I'm sure they would look to increase taxation. In fact it's certain they would need to.

  30. #60

    Re: The Way to an Independent and Prosperous Wales

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays View Post
    National pride and patriotism is fundamentally a religion and a selective identity we give ourselves to make us feel better. If you think we're a great nation it's cos you want to feel good about yourself, and so that can be used to fool ourselves that things are fine as they are.

    Maybe you get this idea that there is a 'hard done by' mentality cos others might not be so patriotic?
    I never really realised that the Welsh had the " hard done by " mentality till a few years after i moved away from Wales

    The Welsh are patriotic, well most i have met have been, be it the football, travelling or in day to day life

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