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  1. #1

    Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    I just watched yesterdays speech by Corbyn where he said that the system is rigged, everyone is against him etc and how that he will things around etc. This all sounded very familiar - Trump said the exact same thing, the system is rigged, the establishment dont want him to win , the press are against him blah blah blah.

    Looks like Jezza is copying a 'winning' formula..... I guess his reckoning is that it worked for Trump so it may work for him - and it might do

  2. #2

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Lock her up!

  3. #3

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    I think Theresa May said something similar a few months or was it liberal elites ??
    Either way I find if equally as cringe worthy on both their parts, they both earn far more then I could imagine and this corny ' we are anti establishment ' rhetoric leave me cold.
    I like that line in Gladiator ' I don't pretend to be a man of the people but I d like to think I am a man for the people'
    Pity they don't subscribe to this more.

  4. #4

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    I think Theresa May said something similar a few months or was it liberal elites ??
    Either way I find if equally as cringe worthy on both their parts, they both earn far more then I could imagine and this corny ' we are anti establishment ' rhetoric leave me cold.
    I like that line in Gladiator ' I don't pretend to be a man of the people but I d like to think I am a man for the people'
    Pity they don't subscribe to this more.
    What I find amusing and so fecking annoying is that (for the moment) Labour are the first ones to jump up and down and go on anti Trump marches - and then in next breath copy his rhetoric.

    I dont recall Theresa May saying the system is rigged - but I have seen Donald Trump and Jeremy Corbyn use that line.

    This from the GUARDIAN was interesting..... https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ily-thornberry

  5. #5

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Railing against the establishment is hardly copying Donald Trump, its a tactic that's been used for years by various politicians

  6. #6

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    Railing against the establishment is hardly copying Donald Trump, its a tactic that's been used for years by various politicians
    Oh City123 - I know that dear, it was the use of the exact same phrase, by saying the system is rigged - which makes it seem a direct lift. Add on top of that Emily Thornberry saying (in the Guardian) that Corbyn and Trump were similar in some respects - and it's pretty clear to see what their overall plan is.

    And just to even up for in case accuse me of bias - it's pretty obvious what May's is - work on the fact that to win - Labour will need a coalition of the the SNP and Labour, and as such the SNP has a say in what happens in Downing St - a pretty horrible thought unless you are the SNP

  7. #7

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Oh City123 - I know that dear, it was the use of the exact same phrase, by saying the system is rigged - which makes it seem a direct lift. Add on top of that Emily Thornberry saying (in the Guardian) that Corbyn and Trump were similar in some respects - and it's pretty clear to see what their overall plan is.

    And just to even up for in case accuse me of bias - it's pretty obvious what May's is - work on the fact that to win - Labour will need a coalition of the the SNP and Labour, and as such the SNP has a say in what happens in Downing St - a pretty horrible thought unless you are the SNP
    Dear?

  8. #8
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    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    it seems that all Tory politicians and quite possibly the BBC have been briefed to utter the words 'chaos and confusion' every time they mention Jezza Corbyn ;)

    That, and to display undisguised 'incredulity' whenever the notion of 'opposition' is mentioned.

    I noticed that champion forelock-tugger Nick Servini apparently forgot that he was supposed to even appear in any way impartial on Wales Today last night.

    Still, who needs opposition eh? ;) So 20th Century in concept ...
    Don't like Corbyn? Hey, no problem, easy solution. Just wave though the Tories to do absolutely whatever the feck they like instead.

  9. #9

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    I know Vimana. On Newsnight the other night the first twenty minutes was spent conducting Tory politicians. Why not just make it a full blown Tory party political broadcast and dispense with all this impartiality nonsense.

  10. #10

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    I dont buy the BBC corruption agenda at all. You should know that every MP will have been told to either say the the system is rigged or the chaos catchphrase.

    On the whole the bbc are aware of the rhetoric that will be trotted out by either side - that's why I like watching Andrew Neil tear all sides apart on the Daily Politics show.


    Having an effective opposition is the job of the 'opposition' it is no one else fault that Corbyn was elected.

    Vim - If I can change what you said around a little "Just wave though Labour (rather than the Tories) to do absolutely whatever the feck they like instead."

    That very sentence would some up Welsh politics since I can remember - which is at least 45 years ago - you cant have it both ways mate, can you ?

    If they had not fecked around and voted in David Milliband - we wouldnt be having this conversation

  11. #11

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    Dear?
    sorry couldn't help it - I had a Graham Norton moment ......

  12. #12

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    sorry couldn't help it - I had a Graham Norton moment ......
    We all have those moments dear

  13. #13

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I just watched yesterdays speech by Corbyn where he said that the system is rigged, everyone is against him etc and how that he will things around etc. This all sounded very familiar - Trump said the exact same thing, the system is rigged, the establishment dont want him to win , the press are against him blah blah blah.

    Looks like Jezza is copying a 'winning' formula..... I guess his reckoning is that it worked for Trump so it may work for him - and it might do
    Will this work for him? It might but only to a limited extent. It may help secure Labour's heartlands in the north. It won't work in the Midlands swing seats and in middle England generally where an unshakeable and negative view of Corbyn is set in stone.

  14. #14

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    "The system is rigged" says Labour, but nowhere near as often as I heard and read the term "coalition of chaos" yesterday - it's just what you hear during election campaigns, all I hope is that this one is not as endlessly dreary and miserable as the referendum run up was.

  15. #15

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    A Professor Scully has a poll coming out on Monday which suggests Labour are set to lose at least ten seats to the Tories in Wales including Bridgend,Wrexham, Cardiff West and Cardiff South and Penarth.They are set to win the popular vote in Wales for the first time since 1922.
    Dear God.That is as dire as it gets.

  16. #16

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    A Professor Scully has a poll coming out on Monday which suggests Labour are set to lose at least ten seats to the Tories in Wales including Bridgend,Wrexham, Cardiff West and Cardiff South and Penarth.They are set to win the popular vote in Wales for the first time since 1922.
    Dear God.That is as dire as it gets.
    I find that hard to believe

  17. #17

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    I don't go with that Feedback. David Milliband would have been targetted by the press and the photos of eating bananas and other awkward photos would constantly have been in the papers.
    He was also an arch Blairite and would have struggled to control the lrft wing within his own party.

    Labour need to start afresh after the next election with a leader who commands respect from both sides of the party.

  18. #18

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    I don't go with that Feedback. David Milliband would have been targetted by the press and the photos of eating bananas and other awkward photos would constantly have been in the papers.
    He was also an arch Blairite and would have struggled to control the lrft wing within his own party.

    Labour need to start afresh after the next election with a leader who commands respect from both sides of the party.
    I disagree Pearcey, David Milliband would have won in 2015. If not won at least largest party. I thought he was a very good foreign secretary.
    Yvette Cooper would get my note as new Labour leader ( as in if I joined Labour I would vote for her as leader )

  19. #19

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    I disagree Pearcey, David Milliband would have won in 2015. If not won at least largest party. I thought he was a very good foreign secretary.
    Yvette Cooper would get my note as new Labour leader ( as in if I joined Labour I would vote for her as leader )
    Hmmm I'm not convinced by that mate.Scotland was lost whoever was leader so Labour would not have won a majority. He was also very closely associated to Blair so tainted by association.

  20. #20

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Hmmm I'm not convinced by that mate.Scotland was lost whoever was leader so Labour would not have won a majority. He was also very closely associated to Blair so tainted by association.
    Any party that loses 58 odd MPs to another party will never win an election in my opinion. Which is why to be in Govt the Labour will have no option but to go into a 'lose' coalition with the SNP and possibly Plaid if it is that close. On top of that I think 15-20 Labour MPs have said they wont seek re-election.

    When it comes to a general election voters pick mainly on who is going to be the PM, that's why Michael Foot in a Donkey jacket would never win, or Kinnock putting on the fake American accent saying "Were alright" when they introduced as the next Prime Minister - a week before he lost.

    Winning a UK election is all about about 100 or key marginals - who are in their very nature slightly swinging left and right. Corbyn is nowhere near the middle ground.

  21. #21

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Politics of envy

  22. #22

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Any party that loses 58 odd MPs to another party will never win an election in my opinion. Which is why to be in Govt the Labour will have no option but to go into a 'lose' coalition with the SNP and possibly Plaid if it is that close. On top of that I think 15-20 Labour MPs have said they wont seek re-election.

    When it comes to a general election voters pick mainly on who is going to be the PM, that's why Michael Foot in a Donkey jacket would never win, or Kinnock putting on the fake American accent saying "Were alright" when they introduced as the next Prime Minister - a week before he lost.

    Winning a UK election is all about about 100 or key marginals - who are in their very nature slightly swinging left and right. Corbyn is nowhere near the middle ground.
    Er yes. Tell me something I don't already know. None of the above suggests David Millliband would have won a General Election. As I said he was too closely associated with a deeply unpopular ex Prime Minister and would also have struggled to control the left wing of his own party.

  23. #23

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    I find that hard to believe
    So do I. My understanding is this Professor had extrapolated the latest nationwide polling and from that established the likely swings frim Labour to Tory.

  24. #24

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    So do I. My understanding is this Professor had extrapolated the latest nationwide polling and from that established the likely swings frim Labour to Tory.
    The tories won Cardiff West in 1983 when ex City Chairman Stefan Terlezki was elected. That was the one where the Labour Manifesto was called the longest suicide note in history - I reckon they are a lot more of a shambles than Michael Foot's party was back then.

  25. #25

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    The tories won Cardiff West in 1983 when ex City Chairman Stefan Terlezki was elected. That was the one where the Labour Manifesto was called the longest suicide note in history - I reckon they are a lot more of a shambles than Michael Foot's party was back then.
    I'd say Paid are more likely to win Cardiff West than anybody else (other than Labour)

  26. #26

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I just watched yesterdays speech by Corbyn where he said that the system is rigged, everyone is against him etc and how that he will things around etc. This all sounded very familiar - Trump said the exact same thing, the system is rigged, the establishment dont want him to win , the press are against him blah blah blah.

    Looks like Jezza is copying a 'winning' formula..... I guess his reckoning is that it worked for Trump so it may work for him - and it might do
    The system IS rigged. UKIP can get 4 million votes and win 0 seats. The Lib Dems could get 20% of the vote and get 50 seats. Labour can get 160 seats with 24% of the vote.

  27. #27

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCPhil View Post
    The system IS rigged. UKIP can get 4 million votes and win 0 seats. The Lib Dems could get 20% of the vote and get 50 seats. Labour can get 160 seats with 24% of the vote.
    ...........................the Tories can form a majority Government with 24% of the eligible vote.

  28. #28

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    ...........................the Tories can form a majority Government with 24% of the eligible vote.
    In that case so could Labour, the way the UK system works is that you need to both heartland areas plus the swing seat marginals. If you are popular - but not that popular in constituencies then coming second or third counts for nothing (as UKIP found out). Which is why we nearly always have a Labour or Conservative Govt - so for Corbyn or May to call the system rigged like he did is BS - he is just copying Trump in order to give the under dog appeal etc.

    Dont blame him really - I would do the same - it worked for Trump

  29. #29

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    In that case so could Labour, the way the UK system works is that you need to both heartland areas plus the swing seat marginals. If you are popular - but not that popular in constituencies then coming second or third counts for nothing (as UKIP found out). Which is why we nearly always have a Labour or Conservative Govt - so for Corbyn or May to call the system rigged like he did is BS - he is just copying Trump in order to give the under dog appeal etc.

    Dont blame him really - I would do the same - it worked for Trump
    Its not rigged, its just a poor voting system, the British public voted against changing it in 2011

  30. #30

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    Its not rigged, its just a poor voting system, the British public voted against changing it in 2011
    Although I'm not sure it's been updated since 2010 this website shows just how much voting power each individual has under the current voting system: http://m.voterpower.org.uk/cardiff-central

    My first point on this matter is always the constituents like those in Sunderland where your individual vote matters so little that the campaign fades into the background and it's all about whether you be the first around the country to deliver the result. My second point is to draw attention to the article in the Daily Mail around 2015 where the young Tory states she won't bother voting as her area will never change from being Tory and so there is no need.

    Brexit happened for many reasons but part of it was a feeling of being left behind and not represented by the political system as it is. If your vote simply doesn't matter then no wonder you feel left behind.

  31. #31

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    On The Last Leg Friday there was one mention of Tim Farron's voting record on LBGTQ+ rights, a number of jokes about "sin" and no mention on any other party leader's voting records.

    This is on a fairly left leaning and progressive programme let alone one of the many, many outlets which has a centre-right bias. I saw a video on facebook earlier in the week about a Labour MP asking Adam Bolton why he wasn't pressing the Conservative MP further on a failed election pledge and just accepting that it hadn't happened; in the clip the Sky News presenter had no answer and looked slightly bemused to be drawn up on the idea that if this was a Labour MP the grilling would go on for a lot longer. Or you can look further to the unbiased BBC and the Cardiff Uni study that showed an over reliance on stats coming from the Conservative party....

    There is a clear difference between Trump stating that the media are against him in his disgraceful campaign and Corbyn suggesting that the media are largely centre-right, that the biggest donors are largely centre-right and that a centre-left candidate is fighting an uphill battle before they start.

  32. #32

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    On The Last Leg Friday there was one mention of Tim Farron's voting record on LBGTQ+ rights, a number of jokes about "sin" and no mention on any other party leader's voting records.

    This is on a fairly left leaning and progressive programme let alone one of the many, many outlets which has a centre-right bias. I saw a video on facebook earlier in the week about a Labour MP asking Adam Bolton why he wasn't pressing the Conservative MP further on a failed election pledge and just accepting that it hadn't happened; in the clip the Sky News presenter had no answer and looked slightly bemused to be drawn up on the idea that if this was a Labour MP the grilling would go on for a lot longer. Or you can look further to the unbiased BBC and the Cardiff Uni study that showed an over reliance on stats coming from the Conservative party....

    There is a clear difference between Trump stating that the media are against him in his disgraceful campaign and Corbyn suggesting that the media are largely centre-right, that the biggest donors are largely centre-right and that a centre-left candidate is fighting an uphill battle before they start.
    Excellent post. There has also been a media narrative that austerity was the only game in town with no coverage given to the alternative of stimulating the economy/investment.
    Similarly the EU Referendum was dominated by Tory politicians.

  33. #33

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Excellent post. There has also been a media narrative that austerity was the only game in town with no coverage given to the alternative of stimulating the economy/investment.
    Similarly the EU Referendum was dominated by Tory politicians.
    Your right it's not the only game in town, and you dont have to look very to see the alternative. Mr Hollande was anti austerity and promised his "le changement"

    http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/2017/01...nch-socialism/

    I doubt you'll bother to read it though (but it's worth 5 mnutes) - it details the unravelling of that policy.

  34. #34

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Why do you doubt that I would "bother" to read it? You don't know me from Adam. Hollande didn't push on with his anti austerity programme and seems to have gone with austerity lite in the end. It looks like Macron will become the next President with an emphasis on public investment. Good for him.

  35. #35

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Excellent post. There has also been a media narrative that austerity was the only game in town with no coverage given to the alternative of stimulating the economy/investment.
    Similarly the EU Referendum was dominated by Tory politicians.



    I agree about austerity, but, to be fair. one of the reasons the Referendum was dominated by Tory politicians was that the official opposition was so weak on the subject - I think a lot of Labour's problems stem from the dreadful Referendum campaign.

  36. #36

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    [/B]

    I agree about austerity, but, to be fair. one of the reasons the Referendum was dominated by Tory politicians was that the official opposition was so weak on the subject - I think a lot of Labour's problems stem from the dreadful Referendum campaign.
    Yes I cannot deny how weak Labour politicians were in their public speaking during that campaign

  37. #37

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Yes I cannot deny how weak Labour politicians were in their public speaking during that campaign
    I just listened to radio wales this morning - when the Labour MP for Bridgend was asked about Labour defence policy etc. Jeremy will not use a preemptive first strike. Of what is your policy on a retaliation - would he order it - if the UK was hit - erm not sure. "We are having a strategic defence review"

    If you remember this is what Gordon Brown ordered back before the last but one election he lost when John Robertson was to do a "strategic defence review policy" - after the election - in other words - kick it into the long grass and use that as an excuse for any question on defence. Interesting to see what he said back in Feb this year https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...bertson-hutton

    The last 2 Govts have made many cut backs on the often over bloated defence budget - nowadays there seems to be more focus on cyber than anything else with it now being a tier 1 threat.

    Weirdly enough I half agree with Corbyn on the first strike issue but I think trident (or the equivalent) is going to have be a price to be paid - would rather it was spent elsewhere, and if we could all give them up the world would be a happier place (perhaps) - but that wont be happening any time soon the way things are going - so Jezza and the Labour party really do need to make a policy on this - rather than his fudging (again)

  38. #38

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I just listened to radio wales this morning - when the Labour MP for Bridgend was asked about Labour defence policy etc. Jeremy will not use a preemptive first strike. Of what is your policy on a retaliation - would he order it - if the UK was hit - erm not sure. "We are having a strategic defence review"

    If you remember this is what Gordon Brown ordered back before the last but one election he lost when John Robertson was to do a "strategic defence review policy" - after the election - in other words - kick it into the long grass and use that as an excuse for any question on defence. Interesting to see what he said back in Feb this year https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...bertson-hutton

    The last 2 Govts have made many cut backs on the often over bloated defence budget - nowadays there seems to be more focus on cyber than anything else with it now being a tier 1 threat.

    Weirdly enough I half agree with Corbyn on the first strike issue but I think trident (or the equivalent) is going to have be a price to be paid - would rather it was spent elsewhere, and if we could all give them up the world would be a happier place (perhaps) - but that wont be happening any time soon the way things are going - so Jezza and the Labour party really do need to make a policy on this - rather than his fudging (again)
    Yes I agree. For Corbyn to appear to be going back on Labour policy regarding Trident at the start of a General Election campaign is idiotic and self serving. Its Labour policy to back having Trident. Corbyn needs to accept it.

  39. #39

    Re: Corbyn 'borrowing' Trumps Speeches

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Yes I agree. For Corbyn to appear to be going back on Labour policy regarding Trident at the start of a General Election campaign is idiotic and self serving. Its Labour policy to back having Trident. Corbyn needs to accept it.
    He came a cropper on this last time as well during the leadership campaign, although no Labour voter seemed to care then - as he won.

    I dont think it will be so easy for him this time - unless of course - the majority of voters think the same as him ?

    I'm still amazed that Tony Blair and the Lib Dems have not 'come together' to form a Remain style second referendum party. I'm not fan of Blair - purely for personal Iraq reasons BUT I watched him yesterday give an interview - and like all Lawyers - he speaks very well and puts his case forward in an eloquent manner - which Corbyn really should follow - but like nearly all socialist - he ends shouting when he should be speaking

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