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Thread: Speeding fine conundrum ?

  1. #1

    Speeding fine conundrum ?

    A question for you fonts of all knowledge.
    I bought a new car (second hand from a dealers) 4 weeks ago.
    Had it for about 10 days then went away for 5 days in my campervan leaving the car on the drive.
    A couple of days after returning I received a speeding fine (NIP) through the post.
    The alleged offence was committed in Cardiff whilst I was away (57mph in a 50mph zone) in the camper.
    I contacted the safety camera unit & explained that I had been away at the time & requested the photograph they had to prove I was not driving.
    The photo arrived & doesn"t show the driver just the front of the car & the number plate, which is the same reg as mine.
    I contacted the safety camera unit again & was told that if I was not driving I must supply the drivers details.
    As far as I am concerned the car was on my drive & I do not believe anyone was driving it.
    The NIP clearly states that if I furnish a false statement I am liable to a 2000 fine.
    Now I can"t say I was driving the car as I wasn"t, but cannot give the alleged drivers details as as far as I am concerned it hadn"t been driven whilst I was away.
    The camera unit have informed me that if I don"t provide the drivers details I will be charged with obstructing the police by refusing to name the driver which will mean more points, bigger fine & court costs.
    On Saturday just gone I received another speeding fine, this time for 36mph in a 30mph zone in Bristol.
    At the time of this alleged offence I was home for the day & again the car was on the drive.
    Any idea what I can do

  2. #2

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Thats very odd. Are you certain the car was not being driven by a member of the family whilst you were away? Where were the car keys on the days in question? If you are certain of all this speak directly with the Police and state you are willing to sign a statement that to the best of your knowledge and belief the car was not driven on either day.Are they certain the dates are correct?

  3. #3

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Photo of the second offence any better than the first?

    You say it's the same reg, does it look like your car otherwise?


    My mrs had on of these a while back, turns out the other car had a dirty pate, and a "D" looked like an "O"
    Last edited by bobh; 08-05-17 at 18:55.

  4. #4

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I have explained that to the police but they say that obviously it was being driven otherwise it couldn"t be photographed committing the offence.
    They have told me that it is a legal requirement for me, the registered owner/keeper to know who is driving the car at all times & furnish the police with any information they request.
    This is 2 speeding fines in less than 3 weeks & I have been driving nearly 40 years without ever receiving a single point.
    I am wondering if the car has been cloned ?
    The police have told me that this is not possible as you need to provide your V5, driving license & proof of address to obtain number plates but I know that this is not true as there are dozens of sellers on line who will make up plates with no documentation being asked for.

  5. #5

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I would actually go into your local Police station and try and discuss it with them. You absolutely must not admit guilt if neither you nor anybody else has driven the car on the dates in question.

  6. #6
    International TH63's Avatar
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    TBH, I wouldn't muck about in here, see a solicitor.

  7. #7

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I am still waiting for the photograph of the second alleged offence.
    The car in the photo I have from the first offence is the same model as mine & the number plate is clearly visible.
    The cars colour looks slightly different but I suppose that that could be the light.
    The photo shows no one driving the car at all but I don"t know if that could be because of glare/flash off the windscreen.
    The number plate in the photo looks clean with all the numbers/letters looking as they should.

  8. #8

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    TBH, I wouldn't muck about in here, see a solicitor.
    Yes but that costs money

  9. #9

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    I would actually go into your local Police station and try and discuss it with them. You absolutely must not admit guilt if neither you nor anybody else has driven the car on the dates in question.
    I have been to my local police station who have told me it is nothing to do with them & I must discuss it with the safety camera unit that issued the fine.
    The keys to the car were in my house whilst I was away for the first offence & 2 family members have keys to my house but they both have cars, nicer cars than mine, & & both have assured me that they have not driven it.
    For the second offence I was in the house, the keys were in the house & the car was definitely on my drive.

  10. #10

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    So whilst you were away did anyone have access to your car keys?

  11. #11

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    So whilst you were away did anyone have access to your car keys?
    See my post number 9.

  12. #12

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have been to my local police station who have told me it is nothing to do with them & I must discuss it with the safety camera unit that issued the fine.
    The keys to the car were in my house whilst I was away for the first offence & 2 family members have keys to my house but they both have cars, nicer cars than mine, & & both have assured me that they have not driven it.
    For the second offence I was in the house, the keys were in the house & the car was definitely on my drive.
    OK. I would put it in writing to the safety camera unit dept and explain your driving record. Make clear you will give a statement but that the statement will clearly say that on neither occasion was the car driven by you or anybody else to your best knowledge and belief. Tell them you are happy to be interviewed and that you are extremely concerned about all of this.

  13. #13

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Presumab!y you have got specific times for the driving offences. Do you have any neighbours who could confirm your car was on the drive at that time?

  14. #14

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Presumab!y you have got specific times for the driving offences. Do you have any neighbours who could confirm your car was on the drive at that time?
    The Cardiff alleged speeding offence was at 1.00AM, so no witnesses.
    The second alleged offence was at 1.00pm on a weekday so the neighbours were out at work.

  15. #15

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    The Cardiff alleged speeding offence was at 1.00AM, so no witnesses.
    The second alleged offence was at 1.00pm on a weekday so the neighbours were out at work.
    Can you be certain you car was on the drive at 1pm on the day you were at home?

  16. #16

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    OK. I would put it in writing to the safety camera unit dept and explain your driving record. Make clear you will give a statement but that the statement will clearly say that on neither occasion was the car driven by you or anybody else to your best knowledge and belief. Tell them you are happy to be interviewed and that you are extremely concerned about all of this.
    I have read many stories online of people doing what you suggest & the outcome is always the same.
    They are found guilty of obstructing the police by "refusing" to give the drivers details & get double the points, a much larger fine & court costs to pay.
    Unless you can afford to employ the solicitor "Mr loophole" who specialises in getting people off motoring offences it seems that once a fine has been issued there is no way of avoiding it even if you weren"t driving & genuinely don"t know who was or are convinced the car was not being driven at the time.
    I contacted DVLA today to see about having my registration number changed as I genuinely believe there is another car driving around with the same number plates as mine.

  17. #17

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Can you be certain you car was on the drive at 1pm on the day you were at home?
    Yes 100%.
    I am hoping that when the photograph for that offence arrives it shows the driver so that I can prove that it wasn"t me.

  18. #18

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have read many stories online of people doing what you suggest & the outcome is always the same.
    They are found guilty of obstructing the police by "refusing" to give the drivers details & get double the points, a much larger fine & court costs to pay.
    Unless you can afford to employ the solicitor "Mr loophole" who specialises in getting people off motoring offences it seems that once a fine has been issued there is no way of avoiding it even if you weren"t driving & genuinely don"t know who was or are convinced the car was not being driven at the time.
    I contacted DVLA today to see about having my registration number changed as I genuinely believe there is another car driving around with the same number plates as mine.
    Is it worth taking a photo of your car and seeing if it differs with the ones the Police have?
    Maybe try and get hold of your local MP! What about contacting the local press. If you are innocent do not admit to guilt.

  19. #19
    First Team El Gwapo's Avatar
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Thats ****ed up. I think the advice to see a lawyer is spot on - will cost but whats the alternative?

  20. #20

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Gwapo View Post
    Thats ****ed up. I think the advice to see a lawyer is spot on - will cost but whats the alternative?
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wa...fordable-help/

    Do you have free legal coverage with your insurance? Are you part of a motoring organisation?

  21. #21

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    Is it worth taking a photo of your car and seeing if it differs with the ones the Police have?
    Maybe try and get hold of your local MP! What about contacting the local press. If you are innocent do not admit to guilt.
    The only possible difference I can see from the photo I have is that on my front plate the dealers name is below the reg where as there is nothing below the plate in the photo.
    However again this could just be how these photos come out (I have never seen one before) & could be due to flash/glare ?
    The colour of the car in the photo is slightly different to the colour of mine but again this could be due to light/flash/glare as the car is a dark brown metallic although to me it looks dark grey metallic & in the photo it looks a slightly lighter grey metallic.

  22. #22

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    From what you have said do you think that your car could have been cloned?

    https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/

    I would report it to the police & ask them if this could have happened i.e. prompt them to investigate this as opposed to them maybe thinking that you are merely trying to wriggle out of a speeding fine. Maybe worth also speaking to the DVLA & asking a few questions there i.e. were there any issues with the car before you bought it.

    If you have little/no joy then, as has already been suggested on here, I would seek immediate legal advice.

  23. #23

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I'm not sure the free legal coverage would apply to a motor insurance conviction

  24. #24

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    You say you know it's not your car?

    In which case it's clearly a clone

    So let it go to court they need to prove it's you and not a car that looks like yours.

    If they still don't believe you, lawyer up at that stage

  25. #25

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have explained that to the police but they say that obviously it was being driven otherwise it couldn"t be photographed committing the offence.
    They have told me that it is a legal requirement for me, the registered owner/keeper to know who is driving the car at all times & furnish the police with any information they request.
    This is 2 speeding fines in less than 3 weeks & I have been driving nearly 40 years without ever receiving a single point.
    I am wondering if the car has been cloned ?
    The police have told me that this is not possible as you need to provide your V5, driving license & proof of address to obtain number plates but I know that this is not true as there are dozens of sellers on line who will make up plates with no documentation being asked for.

    Sorry but I posted a response below before reading this - follow the link I attached on my other message which explains how it can be done

  26. #26

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wa...fordable-help/

    Do you have free legal coverage with your insurance? Are you part of a motoring organisation?
    I have legal coverage with my insurance but that only covers me if I have injured someone or someone else"s property or someone is suing me.
    It cannot be used to defend myself against a speeding prosecution.

  27. #27

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Sounds like some super poltergeist at large

  28. #28

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfonso Perez View Post
    From what you have said do you think that your car could have been cloned?

    https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/

    I would report it to the police & ask them if this could have happened i.e. prompt them to investigate this as opposed to them maybe thinking that you are merely trying to wriggle out of a speeding fine. Maybe worth also speaking to the DVLA & asking a few questions there i.e. were there any issues with the car before you bought it.

    If you have little/no joy then, as has already been suggested on here, I would seek immediate legal advice.
    Actually I have read that article already.
    Unfortunately every case I have read of of people who have done that have still been found guilty & ended up with more points a larger fine & court costs than a small fine & a few points if they had admitted guilt.

  29. #29

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    As far as the first one goes, surely phone records can prove you were in a different place at the time of the offence if you were on holiday?

    Obviously that doesn't prove that your car was on the drive but it'll certainly show that you couldn't have been driving it, thus exonerating yourself of making a false statement etc.

  30. #30

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiw-Blue View Post
    You say you know it's not your car?

    In which case it's clearly a clone

    So let it go to court they need to prove it's you and not a car that looks like yours.

    If they still don't believe you, lawyer up at that stage
    Unfortunately unlike criminal law where you are deemed to be innocent until the prosecution proves your guilt, in civil motoring law you are deemed to be guilty unless you can prove your innocence.
    They don"t have to prove that it is me & my car, I have to prove that either it is not me, not my car or both.
    The cloning article Alfonzo Perez linked to https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/ shows the problems a genuine owner has in trying to prove if someone has had plates made up & fitted them to a similar car.
    Also it shows how easy it is to do
    This has all happened within 3 weeks of buying a new (to me car) & I genuinely do think that there is a clone driving around.

  31. #31

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    Actually I have read that article already.
    Unfortunately every case I have read of of people who have done that have still been found guilty & ended up with more points a larger fine & court costs than a small fine & a few points if they had admitted guilt.
    In that case I would seek immediate legal advice as you don't know how long this will go on for. I take it from above that you have checked your car insurance but have you also checked your home insurance to see it it includes legal expenses cover? If so the insurer will normally have a 24 hour helpline, maybe worth ringing them first to get some advice & also see if you are covered. If not well worth biting the bullet & contacting a solicitor - some may offer an initial free consultation.

  32. #32

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    As far as the first one goes, surely phone records can prove you were in a different place at the time of the offence if you were on holiday?

    Obviously that doesn't prove that your car was on the drive but it'll certainly show that you couldn't have been driving it, thus exonerating yourself of making a false statement etc.
    I know that this is going to sound made up but I was in West Wales & had no phone coverage so did not use my phone.
    Also even I proved that it was not me driving it does not alter the fact that in the eyes of the law although I must provide the details of the driver if it was not me.
    I really don"t know what to do hence the thread.

  33. #33

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiw-Blue View Post
    You say you know it's not your car?

    In which case it's clearly a clone

    So let it go to court they need to prove it's you and not a car that looks like yours.

    If they still don't believe you, lawyer up at that stage
    ^^^ This
    IMG_0299.GIF
    Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

  34. #34

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    Unfortunately unlike criminal law where you are deemed to be innocent until the prosecution proves your guilt, in civil motoring law you are deemed to be guilty unless you can prove your innocence.
    They don"t have to prove that it is me & my car, I have to prove that either it is not me, not my car or both.
    The cloning article Alfonzo Perez linked to https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/ shows the problems a genuine owner has in trying to prove if someone has had plates made up & fitted them to a similar car.
    Also it shows how easy it is to do
    This has all happened within 3 weeks of buying a new (to me car) & I genuinely do think that there is a clone driving around.
    Following on from my post above, did you use a credit/debit card while you were away on the day of the ticket?

    Obviously it depends on how far from home you were in the camper but if you can prove that you were somewhere else then that would be enough proof that it wasn't you driving?

  35. #35

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    Unfortunately unlike criminal law where you are deemed to be innocent until the prosecution proves your guilt, in civil motoring law you are deemed to be guilty unless you can prove your innocence.
    They don"t have to prove that it is me & my car, I have to prove that either it is not me, not my car or both.
    The cloning article Alfonzo Perez linked to https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/ shows the problems a genuine owner has in trying to prove if someone has had plates made up & fitted them to a similar car.
    Also it shows how easy it is to do
    This has all happened within 3 weeks of buying a new (to me car) & I genuinely do think that there is a clone driving around.

    Really???

    Change your number plates to ones with the Welsh flag on the side or something similar, notify whoever needs to know and wait for the next fine to hit the doormat. If you've had two you're gonna get three!

  36. #36

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I know that this is going to sound made up but I was in West Wales & had no phone coverage so did not use my phone.
    Also even I proved that it was not me driving it does not alter the fact that in the eyes of the law although I must provide the details of the driver if it was not me.
    I really don"t know what to do hence the thread.
    But surely if you dont know then you can't tell them?

  37. #37

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    Following on from my post above, did you use a credit/debit card while you were away on the day of the ticket?



    Obviously it depends on how far from home you were in the camper but if you can prove that you were somewhere else then that would be enough proof that it wasn't you driving?
    Yes providing evidence it wasn't you driving the car is the first step. Do you live with anyone who would verify your whereabouts?
    Also the dealer's name not being under the reg number on the photo needs exploring. If its not shown in the second photo you may have something solid to challenge with.
    Would the dealership be worth contacting?Ask them to check the photos against the car.

  38. #38

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    A question for you fonts of all knowledge.
    I bought a new car (second hand from a dealers) 4 weeks ago.
    Had it for about 10 days then went away for 5 days in my campervan leaving the car on the drive.
    A couple of days after returning I received a speeding fine (NIP) through the post.
    The alleged offence was committed in Cardiff whilst I was away (57mph in a 50mph zone) in the camper.
    I contacted the safety camera unit & explained that I had been away at the time & requested the photograph they had to prove I was not driving.
    The photo arrived & doesn"t show the driver just the front of the car & the number plate, which is the same reg as mine.
    I contacted the safety camera unit again & was told that if I was not driving I must supply the drivers details.
    As far as I am concerned the car was on my drive & I do not believe anyone was driving it.
    The NIP clearly states that if I furnish a false statement I am liable to a 2000 fine.
    Now I can"t say I was driving the car as I wasn"t, but cannot give the alleged drivers details as as far as I am concerned it hadn"t been driven whilst I was away.
    The camera unit have informed me that if I don"t provide the drivers details I will be charged with obstructing the police by refusing to name the driver which will mean more points, bigger fine & court costs.
    On Saturday just gone I received another speeding fine, this time for 36mph in a 30mph zone in Bristol.
    At the time of this alleged offence I was home for the day & again the car was on the drive.
    Any idea what I can do
    If you admit the offence when it wasn't you - that is an offence

    All you have to do is tell the truth - it could have been person A,B or C etc - and then let the Police deal with it. It is up to them to prove who was driving at the time. You are NOT supposed to do their job for them.

  39. #39

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I was going to suggest checking bank statements for the first 'offence' that could at least prove you were in a completely different location at that time. The Camera people won't be interested but it may be admissable in court and can at least back you against a claim that you were obstructing the legal process.

    As said by RhiwBlue - I'd also put something on your vehicle that makes it clearly stand out from front and back and get date stamped photos when that's being done to use against any future NIPs.
    Whatever the mind can conceive and truly believe, the mind can achieve.

    Cymru am byth

  40. #40

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I am pretty sure I can prove that it wasn"t me driving the car for the first offence when I was away in the camper as my wife was with me.
    I am not sure if I used a card whilst away as we usually take all our food & drink with us & take enough cash with us to pay for anything whilst we are away such as meals out, milk, newspapers etc but she will vouch for me.
    The second offence I was home on my own as my wife was out for the day.
    I have just checked my home insurance & it says
    "Legal Expenses cover offers up to 50,000 in costs to pursue your legal rights arising from a range of circumstances including personal injury, employment, the purchase or sale of goods or services and damage, nuisance or trespass to your property. It also provides access to a 24/7 legal advice helpline for you and your family on any personal legal matter.
    This cover is automatically included in your Home Insurance policy."
    So I will ring them in the morning & see if they can do anything or give me any advice.
    Just so that people understand how easy cloning is & how difficult it is to prove, this is all that needs to be done.
    Have a popular car, see a similar colour & model (it dosen"t have to be the same colour, year etc), go online & get a set of plates made for the reg you have seen for 17 (no V5 or other documentation needed), fit them to your car & then speed through every speed camera you see, red light, park on double yellow lines etc.
    All the fines will be sent to the registered owner, which is not you, job done !

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