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Thread: Speeding fine conundrum ?

  1. #41

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Hmmm

  2. #42

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    If you admit the offence when it wasn't you - that is an offence

    All you have to do is tell the truth - it could have been person A,B or C etc - and then let the Police deal with it. It is up to them to prove who was driving at the time. You are NOT supposed to do their job for them.
    No it is not up to the Police to prove who was driving.
    As the registered keeper/owner it is taken that it was you driving unless you can provide some acceptable proof that it wasn"t you.
    The problem is in providing proof that is acceptable.
    If you succeed in doing that you are then faced with giving details of who was driving as you are legally obliged as the owner/keeper to know who was driving at all times.
    Even if you give details of the driver, if they say they weren"t driving (even if they were but say the photograph doesn"t identify the driver) you are then prosecuted for the original offence plus charged with perverting the course of justice by providing false information.
    Motoring offences are the complete opposite of criminal offences where the prosecution have to prove your guilt.
    This is the whole problem with the system.
    Basically once a fine has been issued it is being paid & the Police don"t care who pays it or if the person who pays it is the guilty party or not.
    It is getting paid end of.
    This is one of the reasons why people say that legal motorists are just a cash cow for the authorities.
    How many people who let others drive their cars, such as their children, know that by law they have to keep a record of who drove the car when & where ?

  3. #43

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    if you were away with your camper van did you stay on a site,if so get a receipt of your stay,you can't be in two places at once.

  4. #44

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Yep, sounds like your car has been cloned and very little you can do about it

    without falling foul to the " yea right " crowd

    I knew a guy online who had the same thing happen to him, had 6 speeding tickets / red lights arrive in a few weeks, The Police just were not interested, in the end, he had his car towed and impounded for parking in a towaway zone ( he was in london ), as the next ticket came in, he said " well how can i have been speeding, my car is impounded "

    Not sure how it ended, as he disappeared from the forum i was on

  5. #45
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Yep, sounds like your car has been cloned and very little you can do about it

    without falling foul to the " yea right " crowd

    I knew a guy online who had the same thing happen to him, had 6 speeding tickets / red lights arrive in a few weeks, The Police just were not interested, in the end, he had his car towed and impounded for parking in a towaway zone ( he was in london ), as the next ticket came in, he said " well how can i have been speeding, my car is impounded "

    Not sure how it ended, as he disappeared from the forum i was on
    Can't you ask your next door neighbour?

  6. #46

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    Can't you ask your next door neighbour?
    Noddy?

  7. #47

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Are you sure you didn't sleep walk back to Cardiff and then sleep drive

  8. #48

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Can you go back to the dealer or from the log book find out the previous owner.
    May well be that they sold the car due to same problem.
    You may have to pay the fines then either sell the car on, or change the reg.

  9. #49

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I have just spoken to my house insurers & have been informed that I cannot use my legal cover for this problem.
    Yesterday I contacted DVLA to have my registration changed.
    I am sending my V5 off today with a covering letter explaining that I want to surrender my registration & be issued with a new one as i believe my car has been cloned.
    This will take 2-4 weeks according to them so last night I ordered a new set of number plates in my registration but with the Welsh flag on the side of the plates (no V5, driving license or proof of address required even though the authorities claim that is the only way you can get new plates).
    I will fit the new plates when they arrive, hopefully tomorrow, & photograph them being fitted.
    If I receive any more tickets for offences committed between tomorrow & when I have my new registration & number plates I hope that as the clone cars plates does not have a flag I can use this to prove it is not my car committing these offences.
    As blue matt stated the police & authorities are not interested at all.
    As far as they are concerned either I am committing the offences or I know who is driving the car committing these offences 7 am refusing to tell them.
    There are estimated to be at least 10,000 cloned cars on the roads committing various offences & unless the clone is involved in an accident where the driver cannot drive it away or is actually physically stopped by a real Policeman, as opposed to being photographed by gatso"s, camera vans etc there is no way of catching them.

  10. #50

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    No it is not up to the Police to prove who was driving.
    As the registered keeper/owner it is taken that it was you driving unless you can provide some acceptable proof that it wasn"t you.
    The problem is in providing proof that is acceptable.
    If you succeed in doing that you are then faced with giving details of who was driving as you are legally obliged as the owner/keeper to know who was driving at all times.
    Even if you give details of the driver, if they say they weren"t driving (even if they were but say the photograph doesn"t identify the driver) you are then prosecuted for the original offence plus charged with perverting the course of justice by providing false information.
    Motoring offences are the complete opposite of criminal offences where the prosecution have to prove your guilt.
    This is the whole problem with the system.
    Basically once a fine has been issued it is being paid & the Police don"t care who pays it or if the person who pays it is the guilty party or not.
    It is getting paid end of.
    This is one of the reasons why people say that legal motorists are just a cash cow for the authorities.
    How many people who let others drive their cars, such as their children, know that by law they have to keep a record of who drove the car when & where ?
    If I can prove it was not me - and tell the Police it could have been someone from the garage who may have had a key - then there is NO way I can tell them who was driving - and if everyone else who it might have been denies it to - I dont think there will be a prosecution of me.
    Plus without ANY photographic evidence, what evidence will be used to prosecute ? - it's never black and white.

    "Police don"t care who pays it or if the person who pays it is the guilty party or not." Try telling that to Chris Humne the Lib Dem that went to prison after he said his ex wife was driving the car and she paid the fine.

  11. #51
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have just spoken to my house insurers & have been informed that I cannot use my legal cover for this problem.
    Yesterday I contacted DVLA to have my registration changed.
    I am sending my V5 off today with a covering letter explaining that I want to surrender my registration & be issued with a new one as i believe my car has been cloned.
    This will take 2-4 weeks according to them so last night I ordered a new set of number plates in my registration but with the Welsh flag on the side of the plates (no V5, driving license or proof of address required even though the authorities claim that is the only way you can get new plates).
    I will fit the new plates when they arrive, hopefully tomorrow, & photograph them being fitted.
    If I receive any more tickets for offences committed between tomorrow & when I have my new registration & number plates I hope that as the clone cars plates does not have a flag I can use this to prove it is not my car committing these offences.
    As blue matt stated the police & authorities are not interested at all.
    As far as they are concerned either I am committing the offences or I know who is driving the car committing these offences 7 am refusing to tell them.
    There are estimated to be at least 10,000 cloned cars on the roads committing various offences & unless the clone is involved in an accident where the driver cannot drive it away or is actually physically stopped by a real Policeman, as opposed to being photographed by gatso"s, camera vans etc there is no way of catching them.
    That is fecking outrageous. If I were in your shoes I'd be gutted.

  12. #52

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Cloning is such an easy thing to do & so difficult to prove.
    5 doors away from me they have a similar car to mine, albeit a saloon not an estate & 3 years older, but it is a similar colour & from the front looks exactly the same as mine.
    If I were to have a set of plates made up in their reg & fit them to my car I could go out & commit lots of motoring offences & they would receive all the fines/points.
    As long as the photographic evidence was pictures of the front of the car (like my offence is) then it would be virtually impossible for them to prove it was not them committing the offences.

  13. #53

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Definitely sounds like a case of number plate cloning to me, particularly as you have had 2 in a short space of time. Clearly whoever is driving the cloned car doesn't care about picking up tickets.

    As above, while you continue to try to prove your innocence change the plates on your car to one's with a welsh flag or something asap and record proof of this and when they were changed, then if they happen to pick up another ticket anytime soon you have pretty good evidence that it's a clone. Also, the fact that you mention the plates alreayd look slightly different to yours (the lack of dealer name) seems a pretty good route to explore when arguing with the safety camera people!

  14. #54

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Also, not sure if this has been asked above, but at the time of the second offence, did you by any chance drive anywhere at all within an hour or so of the time of the offence in Cardiff? Just wondering if CCTV would have picked up your car anywhere to show you in Cardiff at a time that would have proved impossible for you to be in Bristol that same afternoon?

  15. #55

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Hope you get to the bottom of this, please keep us informed how this pans out. I'm intrigued.

  16. #56

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Surely the strongest forensic evidence is the photo of each offence. Is it possible to get them in them in higher definition?
    Evidence that you were elsewhere isn't going to help for the reasons already stated.

  17. #57

  18. #58

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?


  19. #59
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by itkman View Post
    Don't for get this mate, http://www.pepipoo.com/
    My money was on Steve R, but I was wondering how long it would take....

  20. #60

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    OK. I would put it in writing to the safety camera unit dept and explain your driving record. Make clear you will give a statement but that the statement will clearly say that on neither occasion was the car driven by you or anybody else to your best knowledge and belief. Tell them you are happy to be interviewed and that you are extremely concerned about all of this.
    I would go as far as saying you would like to report two crimes
    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  21. #61

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I am pretty sure I can prove that it wasn"t me driving the car for the first offence when I was away in the camper as my wife was with me.
    I am not sure if I used a card whilst away as we usually take all our food & drink with us & take enough cash with us to pay for anything whilst we are away such as meals out, milk, newspapers etc but she will vouch for me.
    The second offence I was home on my own as my wife was out for the day.
    I have just checked my home insurance & it says
    "Legal Expenses cover offers up to 50,000 in costs to pursue your legal rights arising from a range of circumstances including personal injury, employment, the purchase or sale of goods or services and damage, nuisance or trespass to your property. It also provides access to a 24/7 legal advice helpline for you and your family on any personal legal matter.
    This cover is automatically included in your Home Insurance policy."
    So I will ring them in the morning & see if they can do anything or give me any advice.
    Just so that people understand how easy cloning is & how difficult it is to prove, this is all that needs to be done.
    Have a popular car, see a similar colour & model (it dosen"t have to be the same colour, year etc), go online & get a set of plates made for the reg you have seen for 17 (no V5 or other documentation needed), fit them to your car & then speed through every speed camera you see, red light, park on double yellow lines etc.
    All the fines will be sent to the registered owner, which is not you, job done !
    evidence comes in many forms. if you were in a camper then did you visit a campsite, in which case there may be a log book with your signature on it. you can then prove where you were and that you were in a camper van. if you were in a camper not in your house then you couldn't possibly know who took your car without your permission.

    for the second part if you were at home did you use the internet, phone, take a call, receive a package? anything which shows that you were at home can be used as evidence that you were not driving.

    you do need to report a crime to the police, if someone has taken your car without your permission. I would also seek legal advice as the system is stacked against you.
    The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  22. #62
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I think TISS is spot on. I know a solicitor isn't cheap, but neither are speeding fines these days, then there's the points and the impact on your insurance, you may even have difficulty GETTING insurance.

    Worth an initial appointment at least to fully understand your options.

  23. #63

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Don't forget to include a Daily Newspaper in your photo of the number plate change. Digital Date stamps can be faked but the daily paper in the photo is still reliable evidence.

  24. #64

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    The original poster sounds like a rotter to me. And if there's one thing worse than a rotter it's a tightfisted rotter. In the unlikely event it wasn't him tearing around the streets at breakneck speed, he should content himself with the knowledge that in paying the fines he's helping to lower the country's annual deficit.

    But seriously, having your number plate cloned could result in a driving ban in next to no time plus a court appearance should the phantom driver reach crazy speeds.

  25. #65

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    I would go as far as saying you would like to report two crimes
    I quite like this idea of reporting two crimes. Would the Police be prepared to log them as crimes I wonder.

  26. #66

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I have today fitted new plates to my car (ordered yesterday arrived today) with a Welsh flag on the left hand side & taken a photograph of the plates on the car with today"s Echo at the side of the plate for date confirmation.
    I have sent my V5 in to the DVLA with a covering letter stating that I want a new registration as I believe my car has been cloned.
    I have returned the first NIP (speeding fine) signed & dated but with no information filled in on it with a covering letter stating that I was on holiday at the time of the alleged offence, my wife will confirm that, that my car was on drive, that to the best of my knowledge no one drove the car & that I believe the car in their picture is a clone.
    I have also told them that I have received another ticket that I believe is down to a clone of my car & that I have applied to the DVLA to have a new registration issued due to my concerns.
    I will now wait & see what their reply is.

  27. #67

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have today fitted new plates to my car (ordered yesterday arrived today) with a Welsh flag on the left hand side & taken a photograph of the plates on the car with today"s Echo at the side of the plate for date confirmation.
    I have sent my V5 in to the DVLA with a covering letter stating that I want a new registration as I believe my car has been cloned.
    I have returned the first NIP (speeding fine) signed & dated but with no information filled in on it with a covering letter stating that I was on holiday at the time of the alleged offence, my wife will confirm that, that my car was on drive, that to the best of my knowledge no one drove the car & that I believe the car in their picture is a clone.
    I have also told them that I have received another ticket that I believe is down to a clone of my car & that I have applied to the DVLA to have a new registration issued due to my concerns.
    I will now wait & see what their reply is.
    I think thats a good response. Let us know how you get on and good luck

  28. #68

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    I think thats a good response. Let us know how you get on and good luck
    In the meantime​ you should put the old number plate back on and get a few more speeding tickets, just to seal the deal.

  29. #69
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have today fitted new plates to my car (ordered yesterday arrived today) with a Welsh flag on the left hand side & taken a photograph of the plates on the car with today"s Echo at the side of the plate for date confirmation.
    I have sent my V5 in to the DVLA with a covering letter stating that I want a new registration as I believe my car has been cloned.
    I have returned the first NIP (speeding fine) signed & dated but with no information filled in on it with a covering letter stating that I was on holiday at the time of the alleged offence, my wife will confirm that, that my car was on drive, that to the best of my knowledge no one drove the car & that I believe the car in their picture is a clone.
    I have also told them that I have received another ticket that I believe is down to a clone of my car & that I have applied to the DVLA to have a new registration issued due to my concerns.
    I will now wait & see what their reply is.
    Keep us posted - interesting dilemma (but a worry for you no doubt)

  30. #70

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    In the meantime​ you should put the old number plate back on and get a few more speeding tickets, just to seal the deal.

  31. #71

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have today fitted new plates to my car (ordered yesterday arrived today) with a Welsh flag on the left hand side & taken a photograph of the plates on the car with today"s Echo at the side of the plate for date confirmation.
    I have sent my V5 in to the DVLA with a covering letter stating that I want a new registration as I believe my car has been cloned.
    I have returned the first NIP (speeding fine) signed & dated but with no information filled in on it with a covering letter stating that I was on holiday at the time of the alleged offence, my wife will confirm that, that my car was on drive, that to the best of my knowledge no one drove the car & that I believe the car in their picture is a clone.
    I have also told them that I have received another ticket that I believe is down to a clone of my car & that I have applied to the DVLA to have a new registration issued due to my concerns.
    I will now wait & see what their reply is.
    Good on you for not rolling over and taking the fines when you weren't responsible for them.

    Ultimately they've now got a responsibility to investigate it - if they don't then you're well within your rights to refuse to acknowledge the charges.

  32. #72

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I've nothing to add that will help solve the situation Headlight finds himself in, but will add the observation that it seems against all natural justice that he has to go to the sort of lengths he has done just to give himself a chance (and it's no more than that at this stage) of getting the fines overturned - people are presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt in this country, why should it be different in cases like this?

    Hope things get sorted out for you in the end .

  33. #73

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    The only possible difference I can see from the photo I have is that on my front plate the dealers name is below the reg where as there is nothing below the plate in the photo.
    However again this could just be how these photos come out (I have never seen one before) & could be due to flash/glare ?
    The colour of the car in the photo is slightly different to the colour of mine but again this could be due to light/flash/glare as the car is a dark brown metallic although to me it looks dark grey metallic & in the photo it looks a slightly lighter grey metallic.
    When number plates are issued , the name of the supplying garage or shop is put below the number plate . The supplying garage has to take a copy of the V5 and the log book . I would ask if you can have a better quality photo as the fact there doesn't appear to be a supplier on the speeding photos would show they were not yours . If you can prove you were camping that should be enough to clear your name .
    You can buy "show" plates on line . It is a way of getting round the number plate law.

    I had a similar experience with one of our courtesy cars where we hadn't registered someone driving it , as a limited company they couldn't issue points but they did hand out a whopping 700 fine .

  34. #74

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    If you report the incidents as crimes , you have a far better chance of anyone believing it isn't your car involved .
    If you were in fact driving the car and go down this road and it gets proved , you will go to prison unfortunately.

  35. #75

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I forgot to mention that during my last call to the Safety Camera Unit I mentioned that the picture they had sent me was of a car that was a slightly different colour to mine & that the number plate did not have the dealers name under it as mine does.
    I asked if if I could email them pictures of my car to show what I meant.
    This I did & have got up this morning to find an email waiting from them that says that they cannot accept the photographs as due to the data protection act my email address must contain my full name ?
    I have 2 email addresses neither of which contains my full name as when I set them up my full name was already in use.
    I now have to either borrow or buy a camera & get pictures printed out & post them in.
    I included my full name, DOB & the fine reference number in the email so who do they think is emailing them other me ?
    How many peoples email address contains their full name ?
    More unnecessary awkwardness on their part to make things as difficult as possible as far as I am concerned.

  36. #76

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock View Post
    If you report the incidents as crimes , you have a far better chance of anyone believing it isn't your car involved .
    If you were in fact driving the car and go down this road and it gets proved , you will go to prison unfortunately.
    I was not driving the car, the 2 family members who theoretically could have got hold of my keys swear they did not drive it, & as far as I am concerned the car was on the drive at the time of both incidents.
    I will contact the police today & see if I can report the 2 incidents as crimes although how I would do that I do not know as the car has not been stolen & has been in my possession the entire time ?
    The fact that I ordered (& received within 24 hours) new number plates online without any documentation proves that anyone can get number plates made up to clone a car if they want to.

  37. #77

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PontBlue View Post
    Don't forget to include a Daily Newspaper in your photo of the number plate change. Digital Date stamps can be faked but the daily paper in the photo is still reliable evidence.
    And a shit casio telling the time.

  38. #78

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PontBlue View Post
    Don't forget to include a Daily Newspaper in your photo of the number plate change. Digital Date stamps can be faked but the daily paper in the photo is still reliable evidence.
    In these days of Photoshop, how does that work?

  39. #79

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I forgot to mention that during my last call to the Safety Camera Unit I mentioned that the picture they had sent me was of a car that was a slightly different colour to mine & that the number plate did not have the dealers name under it as mine does.
    I asked if if I could email them pictures of my car to show what I meant.
    This I did & have got up this morning to find an email waiting from them that says that they cannot accept the photographs as due to the data protection act my email address must contain my full name ?
    I have 2 email addresses neither of which contains my full name as when I set them up my full name was already in use.
    I now have to either borrow or buy a camera & get pictures printed out & post them in.
    I included my full name, DOB & the fine reference number in the email so who do they think is emailing them other me ?
    How many peoples email address contains their full name ?
    More unnecessary awkwardness on their part to make things as difficult as possible as far as I am concerned.
    Not sure about why it's a data protection act thing, but it probably means they want a work email address that's likely to have your full name, not a hotmail/gmail. What it's got to do with the price of chips, I've no idea.

  40. #80

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    In these days of Photoshop, how does that work?
    In the old days you used to send yourself a copy (normally the music you created) via recorded deliver and sealed with a wax stamp and not open until the time to prove was necessary, or something like that!

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