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Thread: Speeding fine conundrum ?

  1. #31

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    Actually I have read that article already.
    Unfortunately every case I have read of of people who have done that have still been found guilty & ended up with more points a larger fine & court costs than a small fine & a few points if they had admitted guilt.
    In that case I would seek immediate legal advice as you don't know how long this will go on for. I take it from above that you have checked your car insurance but have you also checked your home insurance to see it it includes legal expenses cover? If so the insurer will normally have a 24 hour helpline, maybe worth ringing them first to get some advice & also see if you are covered. If not well worth biting the bullet & contacting a solicitor - some may offer an initial free consultation.

  2. #32

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    As far as the first one goes, surely phone records can prove you were in a different place at the time of the offence if you were on holiday?

    Obviously that doesn't prove that your car was on the drive but it'll certainly show that you couldn't have been driving it, thus exonerating yourself of making a false statement etc.
    I know that this is going to sound made up but I was in West Wales & had no phone coverage so did not use my phone.
    Also even I proved that it was not me driving it does not alter the fact that in the eyes of the law although I must provide the details of the driver if it was not me.
    I really don"t know what to do hence the thread.

  3. #33

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiw-Blue View Post
    You say you know it's not your car?

    In which case it's clearly a clone

    So let it go to court they need to prove it's you and not a car that looks like yours.

    If they still don't believe you, lawyer up at that stage
    ^^^ This
    IMG_0299.GIF

  4. #34

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    Unfortunately unlike criminal law where you are deemed to be innocent until the prosecution proves your guilt, in civil motoring law you are deemed to be guilty unless you can prove your innocence.
    They don"t have to prove that it is me & my car, I have to prove that either it is not me, not my car or both.
    The cloning article Alfonzo Perez linked to https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/ shows the problems a genuine owner has in trying to prove if someone has had plates made up & fitted them to a similar car.
    Also it shows how easy it is to do
    This has all happened within 3 weeks of buying a new (to me car) & I genuinely do think that there is a clone driving around.
    Following on from my post above, did you use a credit/debit card while you were away on the day of the ticket?

    Obviously it depends on how far from home you were in the camper but if you can prove that you were somewhere else then that would be enough proof that it wasn't you driving?

  5. #35

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    Unfortunately unlike criminal law where you are deemed to be innocent until the prosecution proves your guilt, in civil motoring law you are deemed to be guilty unless you can prove your innocence.
    They don"t have to prove that it is me & my car, I have to prove that either it is not me, not my car or both.
    The cloning article Alfonzo Perez linked to https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car...s-car-cloning/ shows the problems a genuine owner has in trying to prove if someone has had plates made up & fitted them to a similar car.
    Also it shows how easy it is to do
    This has all happened within 3 weeks of buying a new (to me car) & I genuinely do think that there is a clone driving around.

    Really???

    Change your number plates to ones with the Welsh flag on the side or something similar, notify whoever needs to know and wait for the next fine to hit the doormat. If you've had two you're gonna get three!

  6. #36

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I know that this is going to sound made up but I was in West Wales & had no phone coverage so did not use my phone.
    Also even I proved that it was not me driving it does not alter the fact that in the eyes of the law although I must provide the details of the driver if it was not me.
    I really don"t know what to do hence the thread.
    But surely if you dont know then you can't tell them?

  7. #37

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    Following on from my post above, did you use a credit/debit card while you were away on the day of the ticket?



    Obviously it depends on how far from home you were in the camper but if you can prove that you were somewhere else then that would be enough proof that it wasn't you driving?
    Yes providing evidence it wasn't you driving the car is the first step. Do you live with anyone who would verify your whereabouts?
    Also the dealer's name not being under the reg number on the photo needs exploring. If its not shown in the second photo you may have something solid to challenge with.
    Would the dealership be worth contacting?Ask them to check the photos against the car.

  8. #38

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    A question for you fonts of all knowledge.
    I bought a new car (second hand from a dealers) 4 weeks ago.
    Had it for about 10 days then went away for 5 days in my campervan leaving the car on the drive.
    A couple of days after returning I received a speeding fine (NIP) through the post.
    The alleged offence was committed in Cardiff whilst I was away (57mph in a 50mph zone) in the camper.
    I contacted the safety camera unit & explained that I had been away at the time & requested the photograph they had to prove I was not driving.
    The photo arrived & doesn"t show the driver just the front of the car & the number plate, which is the same reg as mine.
    I contacted the safety camera unit again & was told that if I was not driving I must supply the drivers details.
    As far as I am concerned the car was on my drive & I do not believe anyone was driving it.
    The NIP clearly states that if I furnish a false statement I am liable to a 2000 fine.
    Now I can"t say I was driving the car as I wasn"t, but cannot give the alleged drivers details as as far as I am concerned it hadn"t been driven whilst I was away.
    The camera unit have informed me that if I don"t provide the drivers details I will be charged with obstructing the police by refusing to name the driver which will mean more points, bigger fine & court costs.
    On Saturday just gone I received another speeding fine, this time for 36mph in a 30mph zone in Bristol.
    At the time of this alleged offence I was home for the day & again the car was on the drive.
    Any idea what I can do
    If you admit the offence when it wasn't you - that is an offence

    All you have to do is tell the truth - it could have been person A,B or C etc - and then let the Police deal with it. It is up to them to prove who was driving at the time. You are NOT supposed to do their job for them.

  9. #39

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I was going to suggest checking bank statements for the first 'offence' that could at least prove you were in a completely different location at that time. The Camera people won't be interested but it may be admissable in court and can at least back you against a claim that you were obstructing the legal process.

    As said by RhiwBlue - I'd also put something on your vehicle that makes it clearly stand out from front and back and get date stamped photos when that's being done to use against any future NIPs.

  10. #40

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I am pretty sure I can prove that it wasn"t me driving the car for the first offence when I was away in the camper as my wife was with me.
    I am not sure if I used a card whilst away as we usually take all our food & drink with us & take enough cash with us to pay for anything whilst we are away such as meals out, milk, newspapers etc but she will vouch for me.
    The second offence I was home on my own as my wife was out for the day.
    I have just checked my home insurance & it says
    "Legal Expenses cover offers up to 50,000 in costs to pursue your legal rights arising from a range of circumstances including personal injury, employment, the purchase or sale of goods or services and damage, nuisance or trespass to your property. It also provides access to a 24/7 legal advice helpline for you and your family on any personal legal matter.
    This cover is automatically included in your Home Insurance policy."
    So I will ring them in the morning & see if they can do anything or give me any advice.
    Just so that people understand how easy cloning is & how difficult it is to prove, this is all that needs to be done.
    Have a popular car, see a similar colour & model (it dosen"t have to be the same colour, year etc), go online & get a set of plates made for the reg you have seen for 17 (no V5 or other documentation needed), fit them to your car & then speed through every speed camera you see, red light, park on double yellow lines etc.
    All the fines will be sent to the registered owner, which is not you, job done !

  11. #41

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Hmmm

  12. #42

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    If you admit the offence when it wasn't you - that is an offence

    All you have to do is tell the truth - it could have been person A,B or C etc - and then let the Police deal with it. It is up to them to prove who was driving at the time. You are NOT supposed to do their job for them.
    No it is not up to the Police to prove who was driving.
    As the registered keeper/owner it is taken that it was you driving unless you can provide some acceptable proof that it wasn"t you.
    The problem is in providing proof that is acceptable.
    If you succeed in doing that you are then faced with giving details of who was driving as you are legally obliged as the owner/keeper to know who was driving at all times.
    Even if you give details of the driver, if they say they weren"t driving (even if they were but say the photograph doesn"t identify the driver) you are then prosecuted for the original offence plus charged with perverting the course of justice by providing false information.
    Motoring offences are the complete opposite of criminal offences where the prosecution have to prove your guilt.
    This is the whole problem with the system.
    Basically once a fine has been issued it is being paid & the Police don"t care who pays it or if the person who pays it is the guilty party or not.
    It is getting paid end of.
    This is one of the reasons why people say that legal motorists are just a cash cow for the authorities.
    How many people who let others drive their cars, such as their children, know that by law they have to keep a record of who drove the car when & where ?

  13. #43

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    if you were away with your camper van did you stay on a site,if so get a receipt of your stay,you can't be in two places at once.

  14. #44

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Yep, sounds like your car has been cloned and very little you can do about it

    without falling foul to the " yea right " crowd

    I knew a guy online who had the same thing happen to him, had 6 speeding tickets / red lights arrive in a few weeks, The Police just were not interested, in the end, he had his car towed and impounded for parking in a towaway zone ( he was in london ), as the next ticket came in, he said " well how can i have been speeding, my car is impounded "

    Not sure how it ended, as he disappeared from the forum i was on

  15. #45
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Yep, sounds like your car has been cloned and very little you can do about it

    without falling foul to the " yea right " crowd

    I knew a guy online who had the same thing happen to him, had 6 speeding tickets / red lights arrive in a few weeks, The Police just were not interested, in the end, he had his car towed and impounded for parking in a towaway zone ( he was in london ), as the next ticket came in, he said " well how can i have been speeding, my car is impounded "

    Not sure how it ended, as he disappeared from the forum i was on
    Can't you ask your next door neighbour?

  16. #46

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    Can't you ask your next door neighbour?
    Noddy?

  17. #47

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Are you sure you didn't sleep walk back to Cardiff and then sleep drive

  18. #48

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Can you go back to the dealer or from the log book find out the previous owner.
    May well be that they sold the car due to same problem.
    You may have to pay the fines then either sell the car on, or change the reg.

  19. #49

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    I have just spoken to my house insurers & have been informed that I cannot use my legal cover for this problem.
    Yesterday I contacted DVLA to have my registration changed.
    I am sending my V5 off today with a covering letter explaining that I want to surrender my registration & be issued with a new one as i believe my car has been cloned.
    This will take 2-4 weeks according to them so last night I ordered a new set of number plates in my registration but with the Welsh flag on the side of the plates (no V5, driving license or proof of address required even though the authorities claim that is the only way you can get new plates).
    I will fit the new plates when they arrive, hopefully tomorrow, & photograph them being fitted.
    If I receive any more tickets for offences committed between tomorrow & when I have my new registration & number plates I hope that as the clone cars plates does not have a flag I can use this to prove it is not my car committing these offences.
    As blue matt stated the police & authorities are not interested at all.
    As far as they are concerned either I am committing the offences or I know who is driving the car committing these offences 7 am refusing to tell them.
    There are estimated to be at least 10,000 cloned cars on the roads committing various offences & unless the clone is involved in an accident where the driver cannot drive it away or is actually physically stopped by a real Policeman, as opposed to being photographed by gatso"s, camera vans etc there is no way of catching them.

  20. #50

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    No it is not up to the Police to prove who was driving.
    As the registered keeper/owner it is taken that it was you driving unless you can provide some acceptable proof that it wasn"t you.
    The problem is in providing proof that is acceptable.
    If you succeed in doing that you are then faced with giving details of who was driving as you are legally obliged as the owner/keeper to know who was driving at all times.
    Even if you give details of the driver, if they say they weren"t driving (even if they were but say the photograph doesn"t identify the driver) you are then prosecuted for the original offence plus charged with perverting the course of justice by providing false information.
    Motoring offences are the complete opposite of criminal offences where the prosecution have to prove your guilt.
    This is the whole problem with the system.
    Basically once a fine has been issued it is being paid & the Police don"t care who pays it or if the person who pays it is the guilty party or not.
    It is getting paid end of.
    This is one of the reasons why people say that legal motorists are just a cash cow for the authorities.
    How many people who let others drive their cars, such as their children, know that by law they have to keep a record of who drove the car when & where ?
    If I can prove it was not me - and tell the Police it could have been someone from the garage who may have had a key - then there is NO way I can tell them who was driving - and if everyone else who it might have been denies it to - I dont think there will be a prosecution of me.
    Plus without ANY photographic evidence, what evidence will be used to prosecute ? - it's never black and white.

    "Police don"t care who pays it or if the person who pays it is the guilty party or not." Try telling that to Chris Humne the Lib Dem that went to prison after he said his ex wife was driving the car and she paid the fine.

  21. #51
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by headlight View Post
    I have just spoken to my house insurers & have been informed that I cannot use my legal cover for this problem.
    Yesterday I contacted DVLA to have my registration changed.
    I am sending my V5 off today with a covering letter explaining that I want to surrender my registration & be issued with a new one as i believe my car has been cloned.
    This will take 2-4 weeks according to them so last night I ordered a new set of number plates in my registration but with the Welsh flag on the side of the plates (no V5, driving license or proof of address required even though the authorities claim that is the only way you can get new plates).
    I will fit the new plates when they arrive, hopefully tomorrow, & photograph them being fitted.
    If I receive any more tickets for offences committed between tomorrow & when I have my new registration & number plates I hope that as the clone cars plates does not have a flag I can use this to prove it is not my car committing these offences.
    As blue matt stated the police & authorities are not interested at all.
    As far as they are concerned either I am committing the offences or I know who is driving the car committing these offences 7 am refusing to tell them.
    There are estimated to be at least 10,000 cloned cars on the roads committing various offences & unless the clone is involved in an accident where the driver cannot drive it away or is actually physically stopped by a real Policeman, as opposed to being photographed by gatso"s, camera vans etc there is no way of catching them.
    That is fecking outrageous. If I were in your shoes I'd be gutted.

  22. #52

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Cloning is such an easy thing to do & so difficult to prove.
    5 doors away from me they have a similar car to mine, albeit a saloon not an estate & 3 years older, but it is a similar colour & from the front looks exactly the same as mine.
    If I were to have a set of plates made up in their reg & fit them to my car I could go out & commit lots of motoring offences & they would receive all the fines/points.
    As long as the photographic evidence was pictures of the front of the car (like my offence is) then it would be virtually impossible for them to prove it was not them committing the offences.

  23. #53

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Definitely sounds like a case of number plate cloning to me, particularly as you have had 2 in a short space of time. Clearly whoever is driving the cloned car doesn't care about picking up tickets.

    As above, while you continue to try to prove your innocence change the plates on your car to one's with a welsh flag or something asap and record proof of this and when they were changed, then if they happen to pick up another ticket anytime soon you have pretty good evidence that it's a clone. Also, the fact that you mention the plates alreayd look slightly different to yours (the lack of dealer name) seems a pretty good route to explore when arguing with the safety camera people!

  24. #54

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Also, not sure if this has been asked above, but at the time of the second offence, did you by any chance drive anywhere at all within an hour or so of the time of the offence in Cardiff? Just wondering if CCTV would have picked up your car anywhere to show you in Cardiff at a time that would have proved impossible for you to be in Bristol that same afternoon?

  25. #55

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Hope you get to the bottom of this, please keep us informed how this pans out. I'm intrigued.

  26. #56

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Surely the strongest forensic evidence is the photo of each offence. Is it possible to get them in them in higher definition?
    Evidence that you were elsewhere isn't going to help for the reasons already stated.

  27. #57

  28. #58

    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?


  29. #59
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by itkman View Post
    Don't for get this mate, http://www.pepipoo.com/
    My money was on Steve R, but I was wondering how long it would take....

  30. #60
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    Re: Speeding fine conundrum ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    OK. I would put it in writing to the safety camera unit dept and explain your driving record. Make clear you will give a statement but that the statement will clearly say that on neither occasion was the car driven by you or anybody else to your best knowledge and belief. Tell them you are happy to be interviewed and that you are extremely concerned about all of this.
    I would go as far as saying you would like to report two crimes

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