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Thread: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

  1. #41

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Eric - "I would just like to see it run well."

    Serious question - What makes you think the WAG could run it any better than a company that has been running train and transport services for years ?
    For a start, I don't live in Wales so my comments are regarding the train system of the UK (but mainly around London).

    Well it wouldn't be run 'by the wag', in the same way that Jeremy Hunt isn't sitting at the front desk of my local hospital taking names. The likelihood is it would be staffed by roughly the same kind of people with the same kind of experience. The upside would be that currently every decision is made based on the potential for profit, if it was not-for-profit and publicly owned the decisions could be made based on how best to transport passengers from A to B (i.e. the point of a railway).

  2. #42

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I didnt realise that Northern Ireland railway system has remained publicly owned ever since 1948 -
    I then Googled "Northern Ireland's rail system strike"

    And it seems they like strike or 2 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Northern+Ireland%27s+rail+system&oq=Northern+Ireland%27s+rail+system&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Northern+Ireland's+rail+system+strike
    How does it perform compared to the privately owned franchises?

  3. #43

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    Supposedly they're pledging to nationalise the railways, bus services, Royal Mail and energy services.

    Also scrapping tuition fees.

    Not sure how do-able that lot is but I'm sure the Tory led media will quickly pour cold water over it.
    Labour have my vote, first time since 1997. Great manifesto.

  4. #44

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    For a start, I don't live in Wales so my comments are regarding the train system of the UK (but mainly around London).

    Well it wouldn't be run 'by the wag', in the same way that Jeremy Hunt isn't sitting at the front desk of my local hospital taking names. The likelihood is it would be staffed by roughly the same kind of people with the same kind of experience. The upside would be that currently every decision is made based on the potential for profit, if it was not-for-profit and publicly owned the decisions could be made based on how best to transport passengers from A to B (i.e. the point of a railway).
    Are you not allowed to make comments about things in places where you dont live then ? - bizarre

    Ok lets keep it to where you live then - so what you are saying is that the same people that work for Southern Rail will work for a new publicly owner company (I get that bit) my point being when looking at the Northen Ireland public sector trains - they seem to have a fair bit of industrial action going on - to say the least.

    Now - going on to your other point about the money - every franchise is different and the contracts have a "cap and collar" clause which means in the contract they state how much revenue they expect to come in (agreed by both sides) - if there is too much revenue - they pay the Govt , if there is a short fall - the govt pays the franchise. Some franchises make a surplus - some dont.

    As you know Im sure - the franchises dont own the rolling stock and dont look after the track.

    Why not have a read of the full fact article https://fullfact.org/news/do-train-o...ssive-profits/ where it explains it all for you.

    ps - going back to WAG Railways - the guards and drivers etc who have to work for someone. I think goes back to a mindset - if you used to work for British Rail - you knew you had the Govt over a barrel - there was no competition, and there was no incentive to provide a decent service - as you could not be got rid of.

    my original point still stands - it needs to be run something akin to the Japanese model - which runs a mix of both private and public.
    Last edited by ninianclark; 12-05-17 at 08:35.

  5. #45

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Are you not allowed to make comments about things in places where you dont live then ? - bizarre

    Ok lets keep it to where you live then - so what you are saying is that the same people that work for Southern Rail will work for a new publicly owner company (I get that bit) my point being when looking at the Northen Ireland public sector trains - they seem to have a fair bit of industrial action going on - to say the least.

    Now - going on to your other point about the money - every franchise is different and the contracts have a "cap and collar" clause which means in the contract they state how much revenue they expect to come in (agreed by both sides) - if there is too much revenue - they pay the Govt , if there is a short fall - the govt pays the franchise. Some franchises make a surplus - some dont.

    As you know Im sure - the franchises dont own the rolling stock and dont look after the track.

    Why not have a read of the full fact article https://fullfact.org/news/do-train-o...ssive-profits/ where it explains it all for you.

    ps - going back to WAG Railways - the guards and drivers etc who have to work for someone. I think goes back to a mindset - if you used to work for British Rail - you knew you had the Govt over a barrel - there was no competition, and there was no incentive to provide a decent service - as you could not be got rid of.

    my original point still stands - it needs to be run something akin to the Japanese model - which runs a mix of both private and public.
    I think it stands to reason that I wouldn't specifically comment on a train system I don't use.

    I can accept privatisation as a good alternative if there is the potential for competition. In general, customers can't 'shop elsewhere' so there is no incentive for failing franchises to improve, they end up leaning on the government more and more but still somehow making a profit. I live in one of the few small towns to have two stations with two different operators as they are different lines. I actually have choice, the downside of this is you get to see how disjointed the system has become over the last 20 years. Oyster is available at one and not the other because it hasn't been rolled out by one provider.

    I am not specifically advocating a return to British Rail and everything being run centrally. I just think decisions about vital public services shouldn't be made with shareholders in mind.

    How does the publicly run rail service in Northern Ireland compare to franchises in England and Wales in terms of delays and customer satisfaction?

  6. #46
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    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    Supposedly they're pledging to nationalise the railways, bus services, Royal Mail and energy services.

    Also scrapping tuition fees.

    Not sure how do-able that lot is but I'm sure the Tory led media will quickly pour cold water over it.
    I would imagine that the cheapest option from the above wish list would be scrapping tuition fees. A mere 10bn per annum

    All very noble ideals, but who's going to be paying for it?

  7. #47

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I think it stands to reason that I wouldn't specifically comment on a train system I don't use.

    I can accept privatisation as a good alternative if there is the potential for competition. In general, customers can't 'shop elsewhere' so there is no incentive for failing franchises to improve, they end up leaning on the government more and more but still somehow making a profit. I live in one of the few small towns to have two stations with two different operators as they are different lines. I actually have choice, the downside of this is you get to see how disjointed the system has become over the last 20 years. Oyster is available at one and not the other because it hasn't been rolled out by one provider.

    I am not specifically advocating a return to British Rail and everything being run centrally. I just think decisions about vital public services shouldn't be made with shareholders in mind.

    How does the publicly run rail service in Northern Ireland compare to franchises in England and Wales in terms of delays and customer satisfaction?
    Not looked into it - too busy today - I would suggest reading the bbc RealityCheck website - it is a very well researched and sourced place - where they deal with facts over politics http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...eporting-story

    We warned though - this is the evil Tory biased bbc we are talking - Labour doesnt get a look a look at all obviously - take your politics hats off and leave at the door of the site

  8. #48

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    All of those other measures you mentioned are also just bringing us more in line with Europe. Parental leave is great in places like Sweden and Germany, and last time I checked they have so far managed to avoid descending into a post apocalyptic anarchy.
    The Tories would like us all to believe that these things are unattainable, because they are mostly wealthy enough to have no need for them.
    The quite small nation that is sweden are not really what we are looking.

    It isn't a case of employers always squeezing employees. In my experience is very often the other way around.

    If you think universal collective bargaining would be a good thing for workers then I hope you manage a workforce on a budget in the future.
    Last edited by LordKenwyne; 12-05-17 at 10:11.

  9. #49

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    I would imagine that the cheapest option from the above wish list would be scrapping tuition fees. A mere 10bn per annum

    All very noble ideals, but who's going to be paying for it?
    Tax more init.

    So those clever people that aspire to getting a great career can go to Uni for free.

    To be told they aren't paying their fair share in tax if they succeed.

    Around in circles we go.

  10. #50

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...d=tmg_share_tw

    Maybe Labour will clarify their costing...

  11. #51

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by TH63 View Post
    I would imagine that the cheapest option from the above wish list would be scrapping tuition fees. A mere 10bn per annum

    All very noble ideals, but who's going to be paying for it?
    Well it benefits everyone to have as educated workforce as possible. Unfortunately university has become about delaying entering the workplace (in a lot of cases) while learning almost nothing useful. Domestically it was possibly the worst move labour made in government in my opinion, so hard to reverse the trend of university being the default. The whole system is designed to load debt onto kids and is mental really.

    Part of the blame should be placed on further education itself. They shouldnt be offering some of the crappy courses that they do but like everyone else these days they cant resist going for the cash.

  12. #52

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordKenwyne View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...d=tmg_share_tw

    Maybe Labour will clarify their costing...
    I think they should probably wait and see what is in the published manifesto.

  13. #53

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I think they should probably wait and see what is in the published manifesto.
    Ye I was thinking that.

    Slandering Labour and it isn't even their manifesto yet.

  14. #54

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Whilst I understand what you are saying it feels dangerously close to 'lets ask the businesses what they would like to contribute'...

    Railway nationalisation is actually an issue where right and left seem to meet around the back quite often. It doesn't make sense to pump public money into something that produces profit for private companies. Especially when you consider the levels of service and perception of most commuters that the cost of train tickets is absurdly high. I don't feel like we are getting a good deal as a country.

    In terms of the cost, it is almost as though you haven't read it or even thought about it. There is absolutely no reason why nationalisation of the railways would cost a penny. Energy industry is a different kettle of fish but the approach in the manifesto appears to involve setting up publicly owned companies to effectively regulate the industry from within by providing competition.
    I do agree rail effects so many lives, however that central control efficiency will it work ? does it bring with it old fashioned power struggles unions v government , it needs to be a protected service to the public as per policing, people should not be held to ransom . .

  15. #55

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I do agree rail effects so many lives, however that central control efficiency will it work ? does it bring with it old fashioned power struggles unions v government , it needs to be a protected service to the public as per policing, people should not be held to ransom . .
    Keep it private , and get rid of Welsh Labour having any influence, it's become shambolic and i'm a regular user of the service, it needs regulation and controlling but, by a non political and non profit making entity.
    We may not know yet where we're going, but we've already left where we've been

  16. #56

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I do agree rail effects so many lives, however that central control efficiency will it work ? does it bring with it old fashioned power struggles unions v government , it needs to be a protected service to the public as per policing, people should not be held to ransom . .
    I don't understand why or how this country has become so accepting of big business holding us to ransom but so scared of a small group of normal people doing it.

  17. #57

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    It is laughable really, she and the rest of her drones have spent months lecturing everyone about how to negotiate and on day 1 she isolated herself. They appear to have convinced themselves that we are the big brother of the EU and can dictate everything...
    Lets be honest the skills we need for this have gone and not needed since us joining , its a pity we cant get a cross party consensus on this type of issue and others like NHS , immigration ,unfortunately each of the parties like to use the subjects as emotional battering rams and gain browny points with the electorate .

    Coalition politics is the way forward ,I wonder how many would now vote for a Cameron / Clegg party instead of the current choices ?

  18. #58

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Lets be honest the skills we need for this have gone and not needed since us joining , its a pity we cant get a cross party consensus on this type of issue and others like NHS , immigration ,unfortunately each of the parties like to use the subjects as emotional battering rams and gain browny points with the electorate .

    Coalition politics is the way forward ,I wonder how many would now vote for a Cameron / Clegg party instead of the current choices ?
    It definitely doesn't look so bad now haha

  19. #59

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Well it benefits everyone to have as educated workforce as possible. Unfortunately university has become about delaying entering the workplace (in a lot of cases) while learning almost nothing useful. Domestically it was possibly the worst move labour made in government in my opinion, so hard to reverse the trend of university being the default. The whole system is designed to load debt onto kids and is mental really.

    Part of the blame should be placed on further education itself. They shouldnt be offering some of the crappy courses that they do but like everyone else these days they cant resist going for the cash.
    I must be very drunk because I agree with nearly everything Eric has just written. I used to think he was a moron. Here's a question for historians on here. What was the contribution of our universities to the industrial revolution? The answer is zero.

  20. #60

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.


  21. #61

    Re: Labour's election manifesto leaked.


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