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Thread: Euthanasia

  1. #1

    Euthanasia

    As well as allowing people to die with dignity, wouldn't this help to address the care crisis that the nation faces?

    The neglect of the NHS is a living scandal, as is the expectation that people who have paid their national insurance all their life will now have to pay their own care costs.

    If people are being asked to do this - then wouldn't it be fairer to also give them the option to choose whether to be left in a care home, or to choose their own time to die?

    I work hard in order to give my kids a good inheritance that they can collect (all being well) a few years before they retire. If I ever get Alzheimer's or dementia, I would far prefer to be put to sleep than to see my hard work swallowed up because successive Governments were unable and incapable of addressing the ticking time bomb of our aging population.

    I would like, in that position, to agree with doctors that I be put to sleep as soon as I am in a state where I can no longer care for myself.

    I would want my loved ones to remember me as I was, and not for that memory to be tainted by years of painfully visiting a man they do not know, who does not know them.

    And, I would want to leave them with the things that I am working towards to specifically provide for them once I have passed away.

    What's wrong with that?

  2. #2

    Re: Euthanasia

    Out of interest how much did Labour Pledge to the NHS in Ed Millibands manifesto ?

    You can still give you kids your inheritance - just make sure you plan carefully

    I have a friend who has dementia, luckily his pension and his rental income will pay for their care. He is lucky.

    Previously you worked until you were 65, retired - lasted 5 or 10 years - and that was it. Today thanks to modern medicine and lifestyle that is no longer the case . BUT it also means that the pension model is no longer economically fit for purpose. Some people who retired at 60 may be drawing on their pension until they are 90, so there is no way a pension with current contribution levels can pay the pension needed - the sums dont add up, and wont add up until you contribute more to your pension.

  3. #3

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Out of interest how much did Labour Pledge to the NHS in Ed Millibands manifesto ?

    You can still give you kids your inheritance - just make sure you plan carefully

    I have a friend who has dementia, luckily his pension and his rental income will pay for their care. He is lucky.

    Previously you worked until you were 65, retired - lasted 5 or 10 years - and that was it. Today thanks to modern medicine and lifestyle that is no longer the case . BUT it also means that the pension model is no longer economically fit for purpose. Some people who retired at 60 may be drawing on their pension until they are 90, so there is no way a pension with current contribution levels can pay the pension needed - the sums dont add up, and wont add up until you contribute more to your pension.
    There wasn't anything Party political in my post, I blame governments of all colours.

    I also think we need a grown up debate about it. The "you'll be alright with planning" line doesn't really work because many people won't plan.

    People need to pay more into pensions, that is obvious. By the same token, people should have the right to die. Care homes up and down the country will have patients who would elect to die rather than putting their loved ones through a living nightmare.

    If someone can make a will and testament while of sound body and mind, why can't they also make their feelings known about their wishes should they become ill.

    There is a perverse logic in a High Court that switches off a life support machine against the wishes of a parent, but refuses to allow a person the opportunity to die without years of suffering.

    Maybe we are hanging onto the "where there's life there's hope" phrase with too much sentimentality.

  4. #4

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kris View Post
    As well as allowing people to die with dignity, wouldn't this help to address the care crisis that the nation faces?

    The neglect of the NHS is a living scandal, as is the expectation that people who have paid their national insurance all their life will now have to pay their own care costs.

    If people are being asked to do this - then wouldn't it be fairer to also give them the option to choose whether to be left in a care home, or to choose their own time to die?

    I work hard in order to give my kids a good inheritance that they can collect (all being well) a few years before they retire. If I ever get Alzheimer's or dementia, I would far prefer to be put to sleep than to see my hard work swallowed up because successive Governments were unable and incapable of addressing the ticking time bomb of our aging population.

    I would like, in that position, to agree with doctors that I be put to sleep as soon as I am in a state where I can no longer care for myself.

    I would want my loved ones to remember me as I was, and not for that memory to be tainted by years of painfully visiting a man they do not know, who does not know them.

    And, I would want to leave them with the things that I am working towards to specifically provide for them once I have passed away.

    What's wrong with that?
    Nothing about the last days of natural life is good. Not from what I have seen.

    "I would want my loved ones to remember me as I was, and not for that memory to be tainted by years of painfully visiting a man they do not know, who does not know them." That is it for me.

    It is human nature to resist death. But some are brave enough, content enough to end it, so why not.

    If you spend a few minutes watching that you can see that it is still quite a traumatic experience. But at least they go out on their terms:

    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=863_1418484472

    One of the most moving videos I have seen online.

    Our government carries us from birth to death. It is ridiculous how much power they have, as if it is given by some higher being. They can't control what you do with your own life. If you want to end it then end it.

    I know there are bad incidents of life insurance etc.
    Last edited by LordKenwyne; 19-05-17 at 09:21.

  5. #5

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Kris View Post
    There wasn't anything Party political in my post, I blame governments of all colours.

    I also think we need a grown up debate about it. The "you'll be alright with planning" line doesn't really work because many people won't plan.

    People need to pay more into pensions, that is obvious. By the same token, people should have the right to die. Care homes up and down the country will have patients who would elect to die rather than putting their loved ones through a living nightmare.

    If someone can make a will and testament while of sound body and mind, why can't they also make their feelings known about their wishes should they become ill.

    There is a perverse logic in a High Court that switches off a life support machine against the wishes of a parent, but refuses to allow a person the opportunity to die without years of suffering.

    Maybe we are hanging onto the "where there's life there's hope" phrase with too much sentimentality.
    Labour NHS spending under Ed Milliband was roughly in line with what the current lumped in, in fact this lumped in more on top. So I dont think it is correct to say the 'neglect' of NHS . You can never put enough in - it would take up every single penny of the entire budget. It just needs to be run properly and also encompass social care as well.

    Which is what both the NHS England and NHS Wales are trying to address. For example elderly 'bed blockers' who cant leave hospital because of OHP issues at home - at the Heath they are thinking about building a day care centre - so they can move out of their beds to the day centre before going home - which then frees up the beds. There are other initiatives as well.

    This is all a double edged sword - we have a health system and life style that keeps us healthy and makes us live longer - but none of us it seems can either afford to pay for it or put into the pension to keep us afloat.

    I think secretly Govts dont mind people smoking and drinking to excess - as they die early, add in the Lib Dem legalise dope policy - and everyones a winner apart from the individual who is longer with us.

  6. #6

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Out of interest how much did Labour Pledge to the NHS in Ed Millibands manifesto ?

    You can still give you kids your inheritance - just make sure you plan carefully

    I have a friend who has dementia, luckily his pension and his rental income will pay for their care. He is lucky.

    Previously you worked until you were 65, retired - lasted 5 or 10 years - and that was it. Today thanks to modern medicine and lifestyle that is no longer the case . BUT it also means that the pension model is no longer economically fit for purpose. Some people who retired at 60 may be drawing on their pension until they are 90, so there is no way a pension with current contribution levels can pay the pension needed - the sums dont add up, and wont add up until you contribute more to your pension.
    A former near neighbour, a late 60s widow with three kids who lived alone, thought little planning was required. Calculating she'd enjoy continued good health for another 7 years she gifted her house to her daughter, the youngest, as a safeguard against the possibility of her home's value being seized by the state to pay for her care home fees sometime in the future. The daughter, with some haste, ordered her out of the property, which rendered her homeless, and flogged it.

    A great many of the "some" people you mentioned are ex public sector. Do any former teachers, as one example, ever turn their toes up before their mid-90s?

  7. #7

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    A former near neighbour, a late 60s widow with three kids who lived alone, thought little planning was required. Calculating she'd enjoy continued good health for another 7 years she gifted her house to her daughter, the youngest, as a safeguard against the possibility of her home's value being seized by the state to pay for her care home fees sometime in the future. The daughter, with some haste, ordered her out of the property, which rendered her homeless, and flogged it.

    A great many of the "some" people you mentioned are ex public sector. Do any former teachers, as one example, ever turn their toes up before their mid-90s?
    Fair play you're a barel of laughs when it comes to tales of how humans are ***** to each other and basically everything is shit 😂😂😂

  8. #8

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Labour NHS spending under Ed Milliband was roughly in line with what the current lumped in, in fact this lumped in more on top. So I dont think it is correct to say the 'neglect' of NHS . You can never put enough in - it would take up every single penny of the entire budget. It just needs to be run properly and also encompass social care as well.

    Which is what both the NHS England and NHS Wales are trying to address. For example elderly 'bed blockers' who cant leave hospital because of OHP issues at home - at the Heath they are thinking about building a day care centre - so they can move out of their beds to the day centre before going home - which then frees up the beds. There are other initiatives as well.

    This is all a double edged sword - we have a health system and life style that keeps us healthy and makes us live longer - but none of us it seems can either afford to pay for it or put into the pension to keep us afloat.

    I think secretly Govts dont mind people smoking and drinking to excess - as they die early, add in the Lib Dem legalise dope policy - and everyones a winner apart from the individual who is longer with us.
    Milibands proposed NHS spending was roughly in line with the Tories, however the Tories then went ahead and cut almost 5 billion worth of social care spending. This clearly has a direct impact on the NHS.

    I agree social care should be under control of the NHS rather than local authorities. And the NHS should be better funded.

  9. #9

    Re: Euthanasia

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Labour NHS spending under Ed Milliband was roughly in line with what the current lumped in, in fact this lumped in more on top. So I dont think it is correct to say the 'neglect' of NHS . You can never put enough in - it would take up every single penny of the entire budget. It just needs to be run properly and also encompass social care as well.

    Which is what both the NHS England and NHS Wales are trying to address. For example elderly 'bed blockers' who cant leave hospital because of OHP issues at home - at the Heath they are thinking about building a day care centre - so they can move out of their beds to the day centre before going home - which then frees up the beds. There are other initiatives as well.

    This is all a double edged sword - we have a health system and life style that keeps us healthy and makes us live longer - but none of us it seems can either afford to pay for it or put into the pension to keep us afloat.

    I think secretly Govts dont mind people smoking and drinking to excess - as they die early, add in the Lib Dem legalise dope policy - and everyones a winner apart from the individual who is longer with us.
    I was at school in the 80s and, in Geography lessons, we looked at population statistics. It was apparent back then that the population was getting older, and that a higher percentage would have to be sustained by a lower ratio of workers.

    This was put down to the baby boom in the 40s and, subsequently, the 60s. The Governments delayed increasing retirement age for too long. Ideally, it is those aged 65 currently who should be working longer. The extension of retirement age only, really, applies to those aged 40 and younger at the moment.

    Retirement should be more like 70 now - that is if you are currently 65, you have 5 more years before getting a state pension.

    And, for those of us currently aged 40, we should be expecting state pension at 72 or 73.

    We now have a plan that dissuades people from employing immigrants (silly, they tend to come, work, pay tax and retire back home and not burden the Treasury too much), and dissuades families from having too many kids (I agree with this, we are overpopulated as a planet, but the plan will mean we'll continue to have a high ratio of pensioners).

    I don't want to get too political so back to euthanasia.

    I see no purpose in sustaining the life of an individual who is so sick, he cannot even remember his loved ones. To sustain the life to a point where death occurs because the swallowing mechanism has gone is a brutality that we spare our pets.

    I see no purpose in putting family members through the emotional turmoil of watching a loved one die a slow death.

    I appreciate some prefer to stay alive, and prefer to their loved ones to stay alive. That's why I am not advocating compulsory euthanasia, but providing us with a choice.

    How often have you heard, in a funeral, a person (usually of religion) saying "at least, now he's not suffering" or words of that kind? When two of my grandparents died, I was relieved. One, because he suffered, the other because she didn't suffer. I truly thought "thank f&&& for that". I love them both dearly, and whilst euthanising them would not have been appropriate (both were fairly active and coherent), it would have also been a benefit to us if we had the option available to us.

    I hope I am not causing offence to those with first hand experience, my point is that we should have a freedom to choose and this could help the care sector if even a small percentage had the belief that euthanasia was their preferred option.

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