With Whitts gone..

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Usual shit throwing at Whitts who's a championship standard player

Then why isn't he any longer?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I came to the opposite conclusion about overlapping full backs. When we played five at the back under Trollope, it should've been the solution to the problem of where to play Whitts. An extra defender behind him so his defensive weaknesses wouldn't be so exposed while the wing backs could be picked out by his passes to give us an extra attacking threat. As we know, it didn't turn out like that, the wing backs barely got forward at all. I reasoned it wasn't because of a lack of belief that they wouldn't get the ball if they pushed on but a fear that they wouldn't be covered defensively.

I'm not blaming Whitts entirely for this but I'd certainly say he didn't help. Here's the late goal that Reading beat us with here last season (it comes at around 1.40).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wRj1Y1WyyI

Harris is left 2 on 1, I'm not sure if Whitts should have been helping him out (maybe that was Manga's fault) but I've no idea what he's doing. Noone is further up the pitch, suddenly realises the danger and races back, Ralls is already in the box with the other defenders but Whitts never appears. He could've tried to help Harris to block the cross, could've tracked the runners into the box, could've come back to make an extra defender but he does none of them, just stands outside the box and watches it all unfold.

Unfair to generalise but that example sums up what frustrated me with him in recent years. Not just the lack of urgency but the lack of athleticism too. He's 32, the same age as Ronaldo (and Bamba for us) yet we were meant to have sympathy because his legs had gone and it was the other players' responsibility to cover for him. As you say, his moving on is best for him and the club. Good luck to him at Blackburn.

One thing looking at that video, it's how much of a shambles things were back then. To think it even managed to get worse.

[the other bob wilson]

I came to the opposite conclusion about overlapping full backs. When we played five at the back under Trollope, it should've been the solution to the problem of where to play Whitts. An extra defender behind him so his defensive weaknesses wouldn't be so exposed while the wing backs could be picked out by his passes to give us an extra attacking threat. As we know, it didn't turn out like that, the wing backs barely got forward at all. I reasoned it wasn't because of a lack of belief that they wouldn't get the ball if they pushed on but a fear that they wouldn't be covered defensively.

I'm not blaming Whitts entirely for this but I'd certainly say he didn't help. Here's the late goal that Reading beat us with here last season (it comes at around 1.40).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wRj1Y1WyyI

Harris is left 2 on 1, I'm not sure if Whitts should have been helping him out (maybe that was Manga's fault) but I've no idea what he's doing. Noone is further up the pitch, suddenly realises the danger and races back, Ralls is already in the box with the other defenders but Whitts never appears. He could've tried to help Harris to block the cross, could've tracked the runners into the box, could've come back to make an extra defender but he does none of them, just stands outside the box and watches it all unfold.

Unfair to generalise but that example sums up what frustrated me with him in recent years. Not just the lack of urgency but the lack of athleticism too. He's 32, the same age as Ronaldo (and Bamba for us) yet we were meant to have sympathy because his legs had gone and it was the other players' responsibility to cover for him. As you say, his moving on is best for him and the club. Good luck to him at Blackburn.

I think it was bleeding obvious for years that, if you wanted Whitts to play central midfield, it had to be as part of a three and, on paper at least, playing three centrebacks (a position where we had real strength in depth) made perfect sense, because it gave us the opportunity to have a midfield three of Gunnarsson, Ralls and Whitts (they all started against Reading) that would give the latter the opportunity to concentrate on doing what he is best at.

You talk about our wing backs not having the confidence to push on under Trollope's management and I agree with that. In the Reading game, Gunnar (who was "behind schedule" so to speak at that time after returning to training late after the Euros) had been taken off and, with no like for like replacement for him among those who came on, it seems to me that there would have been more defensive responsibilities for Whitts at the time Reading scored - he's sauntering about when Reading score and it looks bad.

From memory, with eighty nine minutes played, we were looking more to win the game at that time, rather than settle for the draw, but, with all of those players back, it's hardly as if we've got done on the break. It seems to me that it's reasonable to argue that we had enough back to have dealt with the situation, but they were all concentrated in the middle and, Reading, we're able to create a two on one on their left pretty easily. In such situations, I'd say that, when it came to a post game analysis of the goal by City's coaching staff, both our right sided central defender (Manga) and our right sided central midfielder (which looks like Whitts in those pictures) would have been held partly responsible.

As to what we do from here without Whitts. If Manga stays, I'd say we are still very well suited to playing a three centreback system in certain games and, in Paterson and Bennett, we have two players who could do well when it comes to the attacking side of the wing back's game (don't think Jazz Richards would be too shabby at it either). However, I think Gunnar has been as much part of our central midfield problem as Whitts was, because so many of our managers have wanted to use him as a box to box player.

I'd prefer to see Gunnar left to do what he does very well for Iceland - that is, in a sitting role with someone else given the responsibility for breaking into the box when we attack. Gunnar covering on the right and Ralls on the left would leave us looking very solid when using a back three and should give all the licence our wing backs needed to get forward where they would have the option of a specialist attacking midfielder to look for if we were only playing with the one striker - I feel we need a number ten cum winger and, with Pilkington's future far from certain, I'd be looking to get one into the club, possibly on loan.

[J R Hartley]

Then why isn't he any longer?

Because he went for a 2 year deal elsewhere. Besides the clip in question is a championship football match.

[J R Hartley]

Probably best that you don't spend too much time in the sun at this time of year.

The point I was making was that as a central midfielder he had three options as the Reading move built up; he can go to help the full back, he can drop into the box (like Ralls does) or he can track one of the runners who are outside the box (like Noone does belatedly). Instead, he ambles along in some no man's land and then stops to watch. I'm not generalising from that one example, I'm saying that he frustrated me a lot by the end and I provided an example to illustrate my point. You don't have to agree.

In answer to your other point, I wouldn't claim that Bamba was the best player in the world although he did have a decent season. I was just providing a couple of examples of other 32 year old footballers that posters might have heard of.

Good morning

Yes too much sun, strongbow and Stella so sincere apologies for the outburst. Very childish of me.

Back to the goal. Option 4 - Harris doesn't commit himself like a schoolboy and goes with the runner so then their full back has to come inside, to where Whitts is positioned, or he crosses the ball from very far out and with the numbers and height in the box we should be backing ourselves.

If Whitts has to look at himself then Harris and Manga certainly do, and so do Jazz Richards and Matt Connolly. One of them should have been tighter to Kermigent, it's not like he's a late runner into the box he's been there all along.

Even though I'm a big Whitts fan now feels the right time to leave. Not least because Cardiff City fans will need to find themselves a new scapegoat.

My guess it will be Morrison (if he remains) or Jazz.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Because he went for a 2 year deal elsewhere.

My point is that we have a few fans suggesting Whitts would still be one of the top midfielders in the Championship despite the fact that the best deal he could get was at a club in the division below.

[J R Hartley]

My point is that we have a few fans suggesting Whitts would still be one of the top midfielders in the Championship despite the fact that the best deal he could get was at a club in the division below.

That was not your point you were just trying to be a clever ****er.

No one on this thread is suggesting Whitts is still one of the top midfielders in the league but there's a few trying to blame him for all he ills at Cardiff City.

You usually use stats to back up your arguments and his stats still compare favourably in the division. Why don't you compare his assists and goals v the rest of our midfielders last season and see how he compares and then tell me he's not a championship standard footballer.

Finally, unless you are his agent, or a close friend, then you don't know what offers he had or his reason for dropping down a division. He says Mowbray sold him the club, wants to play the ball on the deck and wants him to be an integral part of that. He's 33 soon and only got 2/3 seasons left so perhaps he fancied a bit of that after the last 4/5 years have be spent playing hoofball. His first interview for Blackburn certainly suggests that.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

That was not your point you were just trying to be a clever ****er.

No one on this thread is suggesting Whitts is still one of the top midfielders in the league but there's a few trying to blame him for all he ills at Cardiff City.

You usually use stats to back up your arguments and his stats still compare favourably in the division. Why don't you compare his assists and goals v the rest of our midfielders last season and see how he compares and then tell me he's not a championship standard footballer.

Finally, unless you are his agent, or a close friend, then you don't know what offers he had or his reason for dropping down a division. He says Mowbray sold him the club, wants to play the ball on the deck and wants him to be an integral part of that. He's 33 soon and only got 2/3 seasons left so perhaps he fancied a bit of that after the last 4/5 years have be spent playing hoofball. His first interview for Blackburn certainly suggests that.

I would have thought that Whitts would still be a Championship footballer if the deal was right. If playing regularly was the deal clincher, then no Championship side has come close to offering him that. You don't have to be his agent or friend to guess that.

I wrote a piece on here a year or so ago suggesting that reliance on Whittingham's set pieces (where the vast majority of his assists came from in recent seasons) was arguably detrimental to the side. While it was an avenue in which we were successful, our midfield often struggled in open play with him being in there. There were two sides to the coin - keep Whittingham in and sacrifice midfield to an extent or shore up midfield a bit and sacrifice his set pieces.

I was sad to see him leave, but I firmly believe it's the best thing for the club. Sorry to have struck a nerve.

[GRUMPYS DEN]

I would have thought that Whitts would still be a Championship footballer if the deal was right. If playing regularly was the deal clincher, then no Championship side has come close to offering him that. You don't have to be his agent or friend to guess that.

I wrote a piece on here a year or so ago suggesting that reliance on Whittingham's set pieces (where the vast majority of his assists came from in recent seasons) was arguably detrimental to the side. While it was an avenue in which we were successful, our midfield often struggled in open play with him being in there. There were two sides to the coin - keep Whittingham in and sacrifice midfield to an extent or shore up midfield a bit and sacrifice his set pieces.

I was sad to see him leave, but I firmly believe it's the best thing for the club. Sorry to have struck a nerve.

I agree with that.It was interesting that he was probably booked more than any of our other midfielders in the last two seasons many of the bookings similar.He was simply not able to stay with his man and 'took one for the team'.
Still a club legend but I am with those who think it was the right time for him to go and the right time for the club.

[Loramski]

Good morning

Yes too much sun, strongbow and Stella so sincere apologies for the outburst. Very childish of me.

Back to the goal. Option 4 - Harris doesn't commit himself like a schoolboy and goes with the runner so then their full back has to come inside, to where Whitts is positioned, or he crosses the ball from very far out and with the numbers and height in the box we should be backing ourselves.

If Whitts has to look at himself then Harris and Manga certainly do, and so do Jazz Richards and Matt Connolly. One of them should have been tighter to Kermigent, it's not like he's a late runner into the box he's been there all along.

Even though I'm a big Whitts fan now feels the right time to leave. Not least because Cardiff City fans will need to find themselves a new scapegoat.

My guess it will be Morrison (if he remains) or Jazz.

No worries, sorry for the late reply.

The general consensus seems to be that it was the right time for Whitts to go, even you agree with that, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Warnock gave him plenty of chances last season, if he'd just wanted energy in the midfield then he could have gone with O'Keefe but he obviously wanted to try and integrate Whitts' quality in there but it didn't work out. Even then he was prepared to have him as a squad player, on a salary that no other Championship side seemed prepared to better, but Whitts decided to move down a division to get regular football. His choice.

I didn't feel he was scapegoated by the fans, far from it, his name was being sung right to the end. I don't remember him being given a hard time since the Norwich game in 2014, maybe I've been missing something. Surely you don't think he should be immune from any criticism on here? If you're not happy with it, put forward a case for him rather than resorting to mockery and abuse all the time. Plenty of big Whitts fans on here but they don't seem too keen to jump to your defence in this thread.

[JKB]

No worries, sorry for the late reply.


The general consensus seems to be that it was the right time for Whitts to go, even you agree with that, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Warnock gave him plenty of chances last season, if he'd just wanted energy in the midfield then he could have gone with O'Keefe but he obviously wanted to try and integrate Whitts' quality in there but it didn't work out. Even then he was prepared to have him as a squad player, on a salary that no other Championship side seemed prepared to better, but Whitts decided to move down a division to get regular football. His choice.

I didn't feel he was scapegoated by the fans, far from it, his name was being sung right to the end. I don't remember him being given a hard time since the Norwich game in 2014, maybe I've been missing something. Surely you don't think he should be immune from any criticism on here? If you're not happy with it, put forward a case for him rather than resorting to mockery and abuse all the time. Plenty of big Whitts fans on here but they don't seem too keen to jump to your defence in this thread.

Well said, the fly fisherman has turned into an obnoxious, opinionated cock, who constantly spoils what are otherwise enjoyable threads.

[life on mars]

Well said, the fly fisherman has turned into an obnoxious, opinionated cock, who constantly spoils what are otherwise enjoyable threads.

I'll second that, well posted Loramski , lets hope thats the end of this ridiculous saga .

My guess the quiet Whitt's fans ,no there is an element of truth in all this

[J R Hartley]

No worries, sorry for the late reply.

The general consensus seems to be that it was the right time for Whitts to go, even you agree with that, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Warnock gave him plenty of chances last season, if he'd just wanted energy in the midfield then he could have gone with O'Keefe but he obviously wanted to try and integrate Whitts' quality in there but it didn't work out. Even then he was prepared to have him as a squad player, on a salary that no other Championship side seemed prepared to better, but Whitts decided to move down a division to get regular football. His choice.

I didn't feel he was scapegoated by the fans, far from it, his name was being sung right to the end. I don't remember him being given a hard time since the Norwich game in 2014, maybe I've been missing something. Surely you don't think he should be immune from any criticism on here? If you're not happy with it, put forward a case for him rather than resorting to mockery and abuse all the time. Plenty of big Whitts fans on here but they don't seem too keen to jump to your defence in this thread.

I don't need anyone to jump to my defence I'm capable of defending myself. Besides it's a football forum not a popularity contest of who backs who. You could say Whitts is a six foot black man and still have more people agreeing with you than me, that's just the way the cookie crumbles on here.

I didn't say he was a exempt from criticism just having my opinion on you blaming him for that goal which to me is typical of the scapegoating of Whitts in the last few years. There's at least 3 players more at fault for that goal than Whitts but as per usual Whitts gets the blame.

He gets more shit for the things he cant do than any other player in the squad. Gunnarson and Ralls cannot pass water but people don't go on like that they go on about Whitts mobility or tackling ability. Whitts misplaces the odd pass there are groans whereas Ralls gives away the ball far more than Whitts but doesn't get half the negativity.

As for him dropping a division as Ive already said unless you are his agent or a close friend (or Annie as he knows everything about players contracts) you don't know what offers he had, or his reasons for dropping down other than guessing.

We are not going to change each other's minds so I'll just agree to disagree. I'm out.

[J R Hartley]

Well said, the fly fisherman has turned into an obnoxious, opinionated cock, who constantly spoils what are otherwise enjoyable threads.

Ah bless, are you still angry about looking silly on the Adel Taarabt thread? Chin up it's only a football forum.

[Loramski]

I don't need anyone to jump to my defence I'm capable of defending myself. Besides it's a football forum not a popularity contest of who backs who. You could say Whitts is a six foot black man and still have more people agreeing with you than me, that's just the way the cookie crumbles on here.

I didn't say he was a exempt from criticism just having my opinion on you blaming him for that goal which to me is typical of the scapegoating of Whitts in the last few years. There's at least 3 players more at fault for that goal than Whitts but as per usual Whitts gets the blame.

He gets more shit for the things he cant do than any other player in the squad. Gunnarson and Ralls cannot pass water but people don't go on like that they go on about Whitts mobility or tackling ability. Whitts misplaces the odd pass there are groans whereas Ralls gives away the ball far more than Whitts but doesn't get half the negativity.

As for him dropping a division as Ive already said unless you are his agent or a close friend (or Annie as he knows everything about players contracts) you don't know what offers he had, or his reasons for dropping down other than guessing.

We are not going to change each other's minds so I'll just agree to disagree. I'm out.

I thought it was you that was guessing about his relationship with Warnock the other day? I must be getting you muddled up with someone else. Never mind.